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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:03 PM   #51
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Com'on now... Hannity or Beck? I'd watch Stewart over those two as well. That isn't really comparing apples to apples.
Will Erin Burnett from CNN do?
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:05 PM   #52
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Will Erin Burnett from CNN do?
Theres very little on CNN under the blankets of infographics, tweets, and other useless information they fill up their screen with. I didn't know there were even people on the channel anymore
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:12 PM   #53
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Are you drunk? This was an exceptionally tight race. Obama won reelection due to one or two key battleground states, where the voting was 49% vs. 50%. Even the overall popular vote was only 1% or so from a tie. What landslide are you referring to? Go put some more air in your inflatable Obama love doll, it's getting low from last night.

To answer the broader question, no America has not been turning left, but the voter turnout has been, at least over the past 15 years or so. This election should be a case study in how pop-culture and the media is used to sway public opinion, particularly in the under-25 demographic. This age group is so inexperienced, uneducated, and easily coerced, and prior to the 90's, didn't have much of an interest in politics. Anyone who works in Marketing can learn a lot from this election.

Another trend one can gather from this new twitter facebook pop-culture atheist homosexual welfare entitlement voting generation, is the decline of America as a whole on the world stage. It is only as this new group of selfish me-me-me voters is getting involved in politics, that we now have to ask the question "Is America really the greatest country on earth still?". Coincidence? I think not.

The fact is, Obama got a mandate last night. His margin of victory was more than Bush's in 2004 and Bush claimed a mandate.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:18 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by dime21 View Post
Are you drunk? This was an exceptionally tight race. Obama won reelection due to one or two key battleground states, where the voting was 49% vs. 50%. Even the overall popular vote was only 1% or so from a tie. What landslide are you referring to? Go put some more air in your inflatable Obama love doll, it's getting low from last night.

To answer the broader question, no America has not been turning left, but the voter turnout has been, at least over the past 15 years or so. This election should be a case study in how pop-culture and the media is used to sway public opinion, particularly in the under-25 demographic. This age group is so inexperienced, uneducated, and easily coerced, and prior to the 90's, didn't have much of an interest in politics. Anyone who works in Marketing can learn a lot from this election.

Another trend one can gather from this new twitter facebook pop-culture atheist homosexual welfare entitlement voting generation, is the decline of America as a whole on the world stage. It is only as this new group of selfish me-me-me voters is getting involved in politics, that we now have to ask the question "Is America really the greatest country on earth still?". Coincidence? I think not.
I believe there were nine states defined as battleground states. Last time I looked Obama won seven, Romney one and one still to call which is more than likely going Dem.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:20 PM   #55
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The fact is, Obama got a mandate last night. His margin of victory was more than Bush's in 2004 and Bush claimed a mandate.
I loved Bush's "political capitol" speech after that. It was like watching a classmate give a rudimentary explanation of the concept in polisci 101, like he just learned it or something.

I laugh everytime I watch it.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:20 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by dime21 View Post
Are you drunk? This was an exceptionally tight race. Obama won reelection due to one or two key battleground states, where the voting was 49% vs. 50%. Even the overall popular vote was only 1% or so from a tie. What landslide are you referring to? Go put some more air in your inflatable Obama love doll, it's getting low from last night.

To answer the broader question, no America has not been turning left, but the voter turnout has been, at least over the past 15 years or so. This election should be a case study in how pop-culture and the media is used to sway public opinion, particularly in the under-25 demographic. This age group is so inexperienced, uneducated, and easily coerced, and prior to the 90's, didn't have much of an interest in politics. Anyone who works in Marketing can learn a lot from this election.

Another trend one can gather from this new twitter facebook pop-culture atheist homosexual welfare entitlement voting generation, is the decline of America as a whole on the world stage. It is only as this new group of selfish me-me-me voters is getting involved in politics, that we now have to ask the question "Is America really the greatest country on earth still?". Coincidence? I think not.
hahahaha. thanks, I can always use a good laugh. Your views on the media you express here could not be more wrong and your "prior to the 90s" claim proves it.

More young people go to college now than ever before. They are not uneducated or easily coerced by any means. They are MUCH more informed now than they used to be BECAUSE of modern media, facebook, twitter, the internet, etc. That's why they've turned out way more the past 2 elections than ever before. It's not the media swaying the young vote, it's young people realizing all of the bull **** the older people have been doing for a long time. Look anywhere and you'll find way more open-minded young people than old people. Many more young people support civil rights for all and religion staying out of government.

This "new twitter facebook pop-culture atheist homosexual welfare entitlement voting generation" you describe is not the decline of America on the world stage. This is the generation of acceptance and open minds. We don't discriminate based on color of skin, sexuality, gender, or anything. We don't try to control people's private healthcare decisions. Welcome to the 21st century.

And as someone who studied new communication technologies and mass media the last 5 years in university, I can tell you this election will be a case study on the media brainwashing, but it's not going to be on the young people, it's going to be on the older, right leaning people in the "fox news bubble".

And if you think the "me-me-me" voters are the ones on the left, well, I don't even know what anyone could say to that. Is it opposite day?

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Wow.

Instead of ranting and raving and insulting all of the people who voted last night, you should be looking at what those voters are telling you. You are a great example of the GOP's unwillingness to accept that this world, and our country, is evolving. They have chosen NOT to evolve, and it has cost them the Presidency.

Alienating women, latinos (who voted in record numbers), and homosexuals cost them this race - and numerous Senatorial races. It's time to recognize that we are in 2012. Wanting civil rights is not being selfish. This country was founded on the premise that ALL MEN are created equal. Isn't about time we live up to it?

For the first time, EVER, our fellow Americans voted for and passed ballot measure making gay marriage legal. Millions of heterosexuals voted for rights for homosexuals. How is that me me me?? Yesterday was a historic day for our country. It shows that there is hope. Without freedom and equality we are nothing.

For the first time in a long time, I'm proud of America. It's time to stop acting like everyone else is wrong and look in the mirror.
damn good post here. I was proud of America in 2008, but this might be even better considering all we've been through the past four years.

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I don't mean to butt in, but my personal belief is that young voters don't take the time to actually study up on the issues. I'm not saying they are dumb or anything like that - I just think they rely on Jon Stewart, SNL and the likes of Miley Cirus to get their political news.
There have been multiple studies going back to at least the 2004 Presidential election that show that The Daily Show and other shows like it provide just as much, if not more, substance in the news they report than what many people consider "real" news sources. Cable news networks manipulate their stories to generate viewership too. The only difference is the delivery. Stewart and Colbert use a comedic style for their delivery but still retain the hard facts. The "real" news sensationalize the stories in a serious manner. That's the only real difference.

I'd argue that Jon Stewart is a better journalist and provides more substance in his show than many of the blowhards (Hannity, O'Reilly, Matthews, etc) on all of cable networks. Don't believe me? Check out the study published in 2006 by Indiana University Professor Julia Fox about this exact subject. The findings in 2004 indicate much of this is true, and with the way cable news as gone wackjob over the past 8 years, it's probably even more true now.

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You might be right, but how is that any different from the old fogies getting their information from watching Fox and listening to Rush, Glenn, Sean and Bill'O?
It's not any different at all. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't have a very good understanding of the way the media works.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:27 PM   #57
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I don't mean to butt in, but my personal belief is that young voters don't take the time to actually study up on the issues. I'm not saying they are dumb or anything like that - I just think they rely on Jon Stewart, SNL and the likes of Miley Cirus to get their political news.
well i would disagree there ...
i've been hearing this since i was a teenager myself and continued to hear it when my, 8year younger, brother went through his teenage years .. mostly from people aged 60+ who for the past 20-30 years read the same local newspaper, listened only to a single radio station, and watched the same 2 tv stations ...

the "non-political youth" is a myth here in central europe and i doubt youngsters are very different in US. If anything this current young generation is getting their information from more sources, faster and more de-centralized than ever before
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:35 PM   #58
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Are you drunk? This was an exceptionally tight race.
Um... except Indiana and North Carolina it was a repeat of 2008. Obama won the popular vote by at least 2.5 million as well. At no point during election night was there any feeling that Romney had a realistic shot. As soon as early Florida results came in, the Romney camp was silent.

Maybe not a "landslide" but it certainly was a beat-down.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:38 PM   #59
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well i would disagree there ...
i've been hearing this since i was a teenager myself and continued to hear it when my, 8year younger, brother went through his teenage years .. mostly from people aged 60+ who for the past 20-30 years read the same local newspaper, listened only to a single radio station, and watched the same 2 tv stations ...

the "non-political youth" is a myth here in central europe and i doubt youngsters are very different in US. If anything this current young generation is getting their information from more sources, faster and more de-centralized than ever before
I'm in my mid/late 30s and I think that young people seem much more engaged in politics now than they did when I was younger. I also think shows like Jon Stewart's Daily Show get many people interested that wouldn't otherwise be.

One of my friends this morning was telling me that her 11 year old daughter was really interested in the elections and had lots of questions.

I think getting young people involved in politics is a good thing.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:40 PM   #60
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Before you all go off the left hand side fo the cliff, let's take a look at the facts. Yes, we re-elected Obama (by a smaller margin than 2008), picked up a few Senate seats and won the social issue ballot measures but the Reds maintained their control of the state houses and governorships (29>30). Republicans have 24 states where they control the governorship and both houses vs. 13 for the Democrats.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:49 PM   #61
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Another trend one can gather from this new twitter facebook pop-culture atheist homosexual welfare entitlement voting generation, is the decline of America as a whole on the world stage. It is only as this new group of selfish me-me-me voters is getting involved in politics, that we now have to ask the question "Is America really the greatest country on earth still?". Coincidence? I think not.
Dude you need to chill - entitlement? Who? The rich upper class and rich companies that pay NO taxes?

Go online and watch the news from other countries - you'll see what they think of the U.S. and WHO it is they are thinking of...

Is America really the greatest country on earth?

Well, ask the rich companies that have moved jobs overseas...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVwUphZ37Ww
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:49 PM   #62
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Maybe not a "landslide" but it certainly was a beat-down.
"Beat-down?" Good lord. Like rdowns noted, Obama was reelected by a smaller margin than he won in 2008. If that margin is a "beat-down," I'd be curious to know how you'd characterize Reagan's reelection. A snuff film?

Just be content that Obama won. Sometimes it's enough to be excited without hyperbole and exaggeration. If you let yourself overestimate Obama's popularity you'll find yourself exceptionally (needlessly) confused when Obama meets half-the-nation resistance at some point, like he did when he and Pelosi pushed through the healthcare act.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:58 PM   #63
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To answer the broader question, no America has not been turning left, but the voter turnout has been, at least over the past 15 years or so. This election should be a case study in how pop-culture and the media is used to sway public opinion, particularly in the under-25 demographic. This age group is so inexperienced, uneducated, and easily coerced, and prior to the 90's, didn't have much of an interest in politics. Anyone who works in Marketing can learn a lot from this election.
Pop culture and the media, specifically TV, has been a major influencing factor since 1960 when JFK and Nixon had the first televised TV debate. Nixon, coming off a recent hospitalization looked sickly and compounded the matter by refusing makeup. People who watched the debate on TV mostly thought JFK won but people who listened to the debate on radio mostly thought Nixon had won. The debate is credited with spelling Nixon's doom in that race and changing how political campaigns are run in America.

Reagan as the cowboy, Dukakis riding in the tank, Clinton on Arsenio Hall... and you think pop culture and media influence is something new?
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 02:01 PM   #64
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Pop culture and the media, specifically TV, has been a major influencing factor since 1960 when JFK and Nixon had the first televised TV debate. Nixon, coming off a recent hospitalization looked sickly and compounded the matter by refusing makeup. People who watched the debate on TV mostly thought JFK won but people who listened to the debate on radio mostly thought Nixon had won. The debate is credited with spelling Nixon's doom in that race and changing how political campaigns are run in America.

Reagan as the cowboy, Dukakis riding in the tank, Clinton on Arsenio Hall... and you think pop culture and media influence is something new?
Why take the long view when you can sit in your bubble and talk about the scary new (not new at all) world that you've suddenly just come to understand?
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 02:03 PM   #65
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Are you drunk? This was an exceptionally tight race. Obama won reelection due to one or two key battleground states, where the voting was 49% vs. 50%. Even the overall popular vote was only 1% or so from a tie. (...)
Then why do Americans still keep that voting system, that will not let the one win, that has the most single votes, but let that win, that has won a state by 1% more than the other (the winner takes it all).
Also, republicans do not want to be patronised. I would find a concept patronising, in that my vote wasn't counted and another "virtual" person would "decide" for me, that the state I live in has completely voted for one candidate (allthough I have voted, but unfortunately my vote didn't count in the end).
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To answer the broader question, no America has not been turning left, but the voter turnout has been, at least over the past 15 years or so. This election should be a case study in how pop-culture and the media is used to sway public opinion, particularly in the under-25 demographic. This age group is so inexperienced, uneducated, and easily coerced, and prior to the 90's, didn't have much of an interest in politics. Anyone who works in Marketing can learn a lot from this election.
Well, I rarely see people from any age really telling arguments, when interviewed and that goes for every country. In Germany, people should be much more informed (media gives exact explanation of what the government will do or does), but they don't have real arguments, when you ask them, who they vote, too.

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The elections are over. It's time to stop with the demonizing and going back to work. Your party has the House. Use it productively or you will lose that, too. Just my 2 cents.
That will be interesting. Will they still block everything. Before the election people that were inertviewed alsways said Obama has failed, to do what he wanted. Very few pointed out, that the rep. did not let him do it.

Btw., interestingly I did only learn the last night, that Obama had actually gained money for the state, by lending money to the banks. It seemed people were more focusing on the fact that Obama was giving money to the banks and the industry in a so called "socialist" manner. They never said, that the banks paid the money back and the state even made plus.
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And all rhetoric aside, the practice of the parties when they are in power is pretty much the same. Some would say exactly.
Interestingly members of european governments, who were asked (I saw german and french ones) all said, for europa it will not make a real big difference, allthough they really enjoyed working together with Hilary Clinton, who was perceived as very professional. (At the time, they thought she will retire after the election). The foreign minister said, allthough Romney did come across harder against the middle east during the campaigns, the difference will not be big, when in power (words and actions are different).

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A more appropriate statement would be that the political culture in this country sucks and we spend far to little time actually thinking and educating ourselves and others about what we vote for, what our politicians do and how our countries politics work to really be deserving of the right to vote, whether we are Republican or Democrat or Independent.
See, what I wrote above, europeans would be seen more informed, but you actually have to search for people who can give you arguments, why they vote for someone.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 02:13 PM   #66
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Are you drunk? This was an exceptionally tight race. Obama won reelection due to one or two key battleground states, where the voting was 49% vs. 50%. Even the overall popular vote was only 1% or so from a tie. What landslide are you referring to? Go put some more air in your inflatable Obama love doll, it's getting low from last night.
Corrections:

50% to 48%

2.2% not 1%

It's pretty easy to get these numbers right.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 02:20 PM   #67
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"Beat-down?" Good lord. Like rdowns noted, Obama was reelected by a smaller margin than he won in 2008. If that margin is a "beat-down," I'd be curious to know how you'd characterize Reagan's reelection. A snuff film?

Just be content that Obama won. Sometimes it's enough to be excited without hyperbole and exaggeration. If you let yourself overestimate Obama's popularity you'll find yourself exceptionally (needlessly) confused when Obama meets half-the-nation resistance at some point, like he did when he and Pelosi pushed through the healthcare act.
1. So it was slightly less than the 2008 beat-down. Like I said, the only difference were two smaller states. When you win every swing state, that's a beat-down in my book.

2. Didn't realize a fringe radical movement is "half the nation."
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 02:28 PM   #68
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1. So it was slightly less than the 2008 beat-down. Like I said, the only difference were two smaller states. When you win every swing state, that's a beat-down in my book.
Look. I get it. A win is not enough for you. You need adjectives and adverbs and dramatic terms. If you want to characterize a swing-state win as a beat-down, have at it. Just understand that you aren't helping the dialogue.

I remain interested in what verbiage you'd use to characterize Reagan's every-state-but-one victory. My point is not to praise Reagan, but to say you may want to consider whether you think your words should have meaning or not.

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2. Didn't realize a fringe radical movement is "half the nation."
Please teach me how you define "fringe radical movement." I'm genuinely interested.

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A new Reuters/Ipsos poll is the first to show a significant bump in the percentage of Americans in favor of ObamaCare since the Supreme Court upheld the president's biggest domestic achievement: Support among Republicans rose a modest 5 points, to a still-dismal 19 percent, but independents swung 11 points, now backing ObamaCare 38 percent to 62 percent opposed. Still, even in this hopeful poll for Obama, a majority of voters oppose the law, if by a narrower 52-48 percent split.
link

Again, just consider enjoying the spoils of victory without the drama of supposed beat-downs and fringe radical movements.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 02:39 PM   #69
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I remain interested in what verbiage you'd use to characterize Reagan's every-state-but-one victory. My point is not to praise Reagan, but to say you may want to consider whether you think your words should have meaning or not.
massacre?
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 02:44 PM   #70
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Look. I get it. A win is not enough for you. You need adjectives and adverbs and dramatic terms. If you want to characterize a swing-state win as a beat-down, have at it. Just understand that you aren't helping the dialogue.

I remain interested in what verbiage you'd use to characterize Reagan's every-state-but-one victory. My point is not to praise Reagan, but to say you may want to consider whether you think your words should have meaning or not.
Reagan won in a landslide. Obama won this election handily. You know what is a close election? 2000. 2004. You know what isn't? 2008. 2012. (And either of Reagan's elections.) A difference of 100+ electoral votes is not what I'd call close.

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Please teach me how you define "fringe radical movement." I'm genuinely interested.
The tea party movement.

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The tea party spread misinformation that makes "Obamacare" unpopular. How many people who are against it think there are death panels, or some IRS agent will get in between them and their doctor, or other insane lies? When you explain what is in the law, the law is popular.

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Again, just consider enjoying the spoils of victory without the drama of supposed beat-downs and fringe radical movements.
Sorry, but it's hard for me to see the easy Obama win, the Senate pick-ups, the referendum votes, voting trends of minorities, and swaying opinion of gay marriage as anything but a massive victory for progressives. Really, the only disappointment yesterday was that Michele Bachmann clung onto her seat by a thousand votes or so. (And that is a close election.) Sorry what happened was "drama" to you.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 02:52 PM   #71
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Reagan won in a landslide. Obama won this election handily. You know what is a close election? 2000. 2004. You know what isn't? 2008. 2012. (And either of Reagan's elections.) A difference of 100+ electoral votes is not what I'd call close.
You just can't let it go. Yes - 2000 and 2004 were much, much closer elections. No is saying otherwise, at least not here. You are having an argument with yourself.

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The tea party movement.
I gave you a quote to an objective article proving that, as I said earlier half (over, even) of the population was against the heathcare act when it was signed, and you give me the three-word boogie man, "tea party movement"?

Again, you aren't advancing any dialogue here. Truly, if anything such rhetoric makes it harder for you to convince others of otherwise perfectly valid points because they stop listening to you when you move goal posts a double-down when called out for being wrong on something you yourself initiated.

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Sorry, but it's hard for me to see the easy Obama win, the Senate pick-ups, the referendum votes, voting trends of minorities, and swaying opinion of gay marriage as anything but a massive victory for progressives.
Yes, I agree. Yesterday was a victory for progressives. If you want to keep the victory going, blathering about things you don't apparently understand, and refuse to desire to learn, won't help.

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Really, the only disappointment yesterday was that Michele Bachmann clung onto her seat by a thousand votes or so.
I agree. That is disappointing. She frightens me on just about every level.

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Sorry what happened was "drama" to you.
Good lord. Take a deep breath. Walk around a bit.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 03:17 PM   #72
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I think you are going to see Republicans hunker down for the next four years and come back to win the presidency under the same platform in 2016. Im not sure Romney is going to be leading the ticket though.
Same platform? Because it worked so well this time? And last time? If they keep trotting out the same old ideas which alienate and marginalize people they will never win the White House again. Over the next four years the civil war in the GOP is going to get louder and more intense. There are many in the party that understand the need to change or die, but there are others who despite all evidence, think they are losing because there is not enough religion and guns kind of platform.

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Are you drunk? This was an exceptionally tight race. Obama won reelection due to one or two key battleground states, where the voting was 49% vs. 50%.
One or two battleground states? He won ALL of them except for one. States that the Republican establishment crowed about Romney winning. Florida was cited by a number of members here as definitely going red because of all the signs they saw in places they had not seen in 2008. I thought myself that Florida might go that way too. But it did not come to pass. And Virginia which I always thought would stay blue, was said to be Romney's. Nope. And the competitive race in PA at the last minute (and the 49/49 poll over the weekend) was just a joke and yet more wishful thinking by the GOP. You would think after a history of racing into PA at the last minute and then losing it they would get a clue. If they want to win PA, fine...then you have to spend money there all along. Not at the last minute.

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Another trend one can gather from this new twitter facebook pop-culture atheist homosexual welfare entitlement voting generation, is the decline of America as a whole on the world stage.
Hmm, my turn to ask if you're the one drunk, because the world over is pretty happy about this election. Except Pakistan which is not happy at all.

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Originally Posted by BladesOfSteel View Post
I don't mean to butt in, but my personal belief is that young voters don't take the time to actually study up on the issues. I'm not saying they are dumb or anything like that - I just think they rely on Jon Stewart, SNL and the likes of Miley Cirus to get their political news.

The good news yesterday, at least from my conservative, but not republican point of view, is that the wingbats of the party got shown the door - expect Bachman. How she survived, again, is beyond me.
You answered your own question. Michele Bachman survived because Jon Stewart and SNL need comedy material. They can't have ALL of their material snatched away in one night! It's the universe's way of balancing things out.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 04:18 PM   #73
Coleman2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
I think you are going to see Republicans hunker down for the next four years and come back to win the presidency under the same platform in 2016.
Impossible! Have you seen the polling results? Republicans lost 90% of the African American vote, 70% of the Latino vote, 60% of woman 60% of the Jewish Vote and 70% of Asians. In 4 more years the electorate will be even more diverse. Instead of reaching out to minorities in 2012 Republicans tried voter suppression and limiting the voting electorate. The Republican message was rejected in 2008 and again in 2012. You think coming back in 4 years offering the same policies is a winning strategy?

Evidence of voter suppression:

Quote:
Hours after President Barack Obama declared that the nation needs to fix the problem of long lines at the voting booth, a survey by Hart Research, commissioned by the AFL-CIO, found that minorities and Democrats were more likely to experience long wait times than others.

Nearly a quarter of blacks -- 24 percent -- and Hispanics -- 22 percent -- reported waiting in line more than 30 minutes, compared to 9 percent of whites. Obama voters were nearly twice as likely as Romney voters to face long lines, at 16 percent to 9 percent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
Before you all go off the left hand side fo the cliff, let's take a look at the facts. Yes, we re-elected Obama (by a smaller margin than 2008), picked up a few Senate seats and won the social issue ballot measures but the Reds maintained their control of the state houses and governorships (29>30). Republicans have 24 states where they control the governorship and both houses vs. 13 for the Democrats.
The Republicans kept the house due to redistricting. They redrew the districts to be more conservative to make their seats safe. Even with redistricting Michelle Bachmann barely kept her seat.

Last edited by Coleman2010; Nov 7, 2012 at 04:30 PM.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 04:23 PM   #74
Jackintosh
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I hope so. Compared to the rest of the advanced countries of the world, we've been shifting into scary right way too long.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 04:23 PM   #75
Anuba
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Originally Posted by leenak View Post
I think that it sucks in many parts of our country that we have built a reliance on a workforce consisting of underpaid undocumented workers.
I agree. On the other hand, the entire western world has built a reliance on a workforce consisting of underpaid workers. The Mac I'm typing on was built by underpaid workers in China, the H&M clothes I'm wearing were made by underpaid workers living in slums in Bangladesh, and don't get me started on my IKEA furniture. As for the coffee I'm drinking right now, I have a feeling that the beans weren't harvested by a particularly well paid individual.

But it seems that nobody wants to run into them working 'round the corner, just like nobody wants to see how hot dogs are made.
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