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Old Nov 8, 2012, 11:17 PM   #76
Coleman2010
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Thank you for posting.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 01:25 AM   #77
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I stand corrected. The Senate passed a budget in Obama's first 100 days on April 29, 2009. That was only 3 1/2 years ago.
I believe that you are correct:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/29/opinio...get/index.html

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/76418.html
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 12:30 PM   #78
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I'll check it out.

I can't devote my full attention to that as I'm at work.

I'm a little leery about the source though.

Does anybody have anything from something more reputable?
you don't need to be so leery of the source, it's the logical inconsistency of what's being said that you need to look at.

Note in the first example; they're talking about small business owners who are actually so successful that their profits put them in the top tax rates. These AREN'T marginally just barely surviving businesses that are somehow on the verge of collapse.......they're actually quite successful businesses that are doing quite well making a good profit.


Marginal businesses simply aren't facing these tax increases because they aren't making anywhere near enough money to be effected by them
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 01:05 PM   #79
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No idea if the following are true (more layoffs by several companies):
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...-obamacare-be/

More about 100 workers:
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=22890041&nid...cid=featured-4

More: 54 coal workers
http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...684_story.html
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 01:25 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by AlaskaMoose View Post
No idea if the following are true (more layoffs by several companies):
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...-obamacare-be/

More about 100 workers:
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=22890041&nid...cid=featured-4

More: 54 coal workers
http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...684_story.html
The coal layoffs are hilarious. The reason for them is the oversupply of cheap natural gas, a direct result of bush era policies on fracking. Coal is simply too expensive. Not only to mine it but also to transport it. Anyone who is affected by the guy's crocodile tears should be ashamed for their unwillingness to follow nat'l news.

I don't know about the medical device layoffs.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 02:33 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
This is the fifth worse in history.
In terms of raw points or %?
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 03:31 PM   #82
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The coal layoffs are hilarious. The reason for them is the oversupply of cheap natural gas, a direct result of bush era policies on fracking. Coal is simply too expensive. Not only to mine it but also to transport it. Anyone who is affected by the guy's crocodile tears should be ashamed for their unwillingness to follow nat'l news.

I don't know about the medical device layoffs.
Perhaps that's true, at least to us. But I wonder how hilarious it is to the people who are losing their jobs?

There is something else one has to consider:

a. Which of the natural gas companies could these workers be relocated to, and how close are these companies from the workers' homes and families?

b. Are coal workers trained to switch from their line of work to another?

c. With the high rate of unemployment, will existing natural gas workers quit their jobs so that the coal workers can be hired to work with natural gas?
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 04:06 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by AlaskaMoose View Post
Perhaps that's true, at least to us. But I wonder how hilarious it is to the people who are losing their jobs?

There is something else one has to consider:

a. Which of the natural gas companies could these workers be relocated to, and how close are these companies from the workers' homes and families?

b. Are coal workers trained to switch from their line of work to another?

c. With the high rate of unemployment, will existing natural gas workers quit their jobs so that the coal workers can be hired to work with natural gas?
Sure, I feel sorry for people who lose their jobs, but I don't feel sorry for the coal industry. They've fought the Clean Air Act for years and all that we Americans have to show for it are more billionaires and dirtier air.

The Natural Gas industry is booming. I don't know if Utah has seen any growth but its neighbors, Wyoming and Montana sure have as well as North Dakota. I'm sure that training isn't a huge issue, it's generally something supplied through State Employment agencies.

In regards to the job situation, I'm not sure what your point is. Should bush not have encouraged more gas exploration so as to ensure that coal jobs would be secure? Change is a given in life as is progress. Natural gas is definitely progress in comparison to coal.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 04:20 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by AlaskaMoose View Post
Perhaps that's true, at least to us. But I wonder how hilarious it is to the people who are losing their jobs?

There is something else one has to consider:

a. Which of the natural gas companies could these workers be relocated to, and how close are these companies from the workers' homes and families?

b. Are coal workers trained to switch from their line of work to another?

c. With the high rate of unemployment, will existing natural gas workers quit their jobs so that the coal workers can be hired to work with natural gas?
We can't keep antiquated businesses open indefinitely just to save their jobs. If there's better, newer alternatives, then move on and get in to that business. Imagine if we would have not shifted from horse-drawn buggys to cars because we didn't want the buggy makers to lose their jobs.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 04:42 PM   #85
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This falsely assumes a cause and effect relationship to Obama's re-election and the sell-off the next morning. After hours trading was up until about 7:30 (Eastern Standard) in the morning when Germany released their economic data showing even more decline.

EDIT: I am not saying that after hours trading was up because Obama won...likely no relation. But to clarify, Germany had forecast .04% contraction in manufacturing but Wednesday, released the actual numbers showing 3% contraction.
Every article I have read has linked the two, the eurozone has been having notable issues for a long time now.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 05:45 PM   #86
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We can't keep antiquated businesses open indefinitely just to save their jobs. If there's better, newer alternatives, then move on and get in to that business. Imagine if we would have not shifted from horse-drawn buggys to cars because we didn't want the buggy makers to lose their jobs.
We? Are you The US Government? The company is not asking for bail-outs.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugg View Post
Sure, I feel sorry for people who lose their jobs, but I don't feel sorry for the coal industry. They've fought the Clean Air Act for years and all that we Americans have to show for it are more billionaires and dirtier air.

The Natural Gas industry is booming. I don't know if Utah has seen any growth but its neighbors, Wyoming and Montana sure have as well as North Dakota. I'm sure that training isn't a huge issue, it's generally something supplied through State Employment agencies.

In regards to the job situation, I'm not sure what your point is. Should bush not have encouraged more gas exploration so as to ensure that coal jobs would be secure? Change is a given in life as is progress. Natural gas is definitely progress in comparison to coal.
Don't you realize that it's not only the coal industry involved in pollution? Every one of us as well as every industry pollute our air, land, and water every day. We can blame one industry or another for pollution and everything else, but we can't just ignore that all of us benefit from what they produce. Coal is used to produce electricity in the US. That electricity is not produced by the electrical outlet on your wall.

And yes, we should encourage for the extraction of natural gas and oil production, but coal is one of the natural resources we still depend on. With the high rate of unemployment, losing more jobs is not going to help the rest of us. That's my point.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 05:46 PM   #87
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We? Are you The US Government? The company is not asking for bail-outs.
We as in society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaMoose View Post
Don't you realize that it's not only the coal industry involved in pollution? Every one of us as well as every industry pollute our air, land, and water every day. We can blame one industry or another for pollution and everything else, but we can't just ignore that all of us benefit from what they produce. Coal is used to produce electricity in the US. That electricity is not produced by the electrical outlet on your wall.
Coal is one of the worst polluters, so we can blame them. Mining coal is one of the most deadly jobs in the world, and the after-effects of working in a coal mine most definitely will shorten the workers lives.

We have many new, cleaner technologies to create energy, and there is always the possibility to invent more. Coal isn't a finite resource anyways, so we might as will kill two birds with one stone; cut down on the pollution and move towards more sustainable and cleaner energy sources for the future.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 09:02 PM   #88
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We as in society.



Coal is one of the worst polluters, so we can blame them. Mining coal is one of the most deadly jobs in the world, and the after-effects of working in a coal mine most definitely will shorten the workers lives.

We have many new, cleaner technologies to create energy, and there is always the possibility to invent more. Coal isn't a finite resource anyways, so we might as will kill two birds with one stone; cut down on the pollution and move towards more sustainable and cleaner energy sources for the future.
Still, coal is used to produce around 54% of the US electricity. That electricity is not only used by you and I to power our computers to post in this forum, but for the production of most things we surround ourselves with. Just look around whichever room you are using your computer at right now, and ask yourself how all of these things around you could have been produced

Tell me of one clean source of energy being used at the moment, and then we can continue this dialog.

Also, what are you going to do with thousands of coal miners and their families in the US? Are you going to fire all of them and then provide unemployment compensation, food, shelter, healthcare for each one of them, and also electricity from hot air?

By the way, I have no idea of where you live at. But if you have air pollution in whichever town or city you live at, is this pollution being caused by the burning of coal? The brown sky in NY, and CA is also the result of coal-burning power plants? When you drive your car around town, are the pollutants coming out of the tailpipe the result of your car's engine burning coal?

Some of the products, other than electrical production, made from coal.

COAL/TAR PRODUCTS: Insecticides, fungicides, moth balls, paint thinner, batteries, wood preservative, disinfectant, varnish, insulation roof shingles.

COKE PRODUCTS: fuel, gas, carbon dioxide, soda water, acetylene, synthetic rubber, charcoal briquettes, artificial silk.

OTHER PRODUCTS: carbolic acid, fire proofing materials, food preservatives, billiard balls, medicines, perfumes, ammonia, baking powder, rubber cement fertilizer, paint pigments, sulfur, TNT, linoleum, sugar substitute
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Last edited by AlaskaMoose; Nov 9, 2012 at 09:30 PM.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 09:39 PM   #89
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Still, coal is used to produce around 54% of the US electricity.
Source please.

According the wiki, it's 42%.

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Coal power in the United States accounted for 42% of the country's electricity production in 2011.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_po..._United_States
You're well over 20% off.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 09:52 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by AlaskaMoose View Post

Also, what are you going to do with thousands of coal miners and their families in the US? Are you going to fire all of them and then provide unemployment compensation, food, shelter, healthcare for each one of them, and also electricity from hot air?
Did you feel the same compassion when Walmart destroyed US manufacturing by buying all its products from China rather than the US? What about companies like Bain Capital that did the same? somehow I doubt it.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 10:36 PM   #91
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And people wonder why we have unions...
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 11:33 PM   #92
AlaskaMoose
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Source please.

According the wiki, it's 42%.



You're well over 20% off.
It's more like 10%. Now, what would you suggest we do relating to this workforce? Fire them all?
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php..._United_States
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 11:43 PM   #93
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Did you feel the same compassion when Walmart destroyed US manufacturing by buying all its products from China rather than the US? What about companies like Bain Capital that did the same? somehow I doubt it.
Did you feel compassion for the loss of US jobs when you bought your Mac, or iPhone, or iPad? How about compassion for the loss of jobs when these companies, most of which outsourced jobs, went belly up?
http://blog.heritage.org/2012/10/18/...ergy-failures/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillm...the-sales-are/

Compassion or not is not the point I am trying to make. The point I am trying to make is as follows: US jobs loss at this time, regardless of the type of industry or workforce (coal, oil, mining, lumber, etc.), is detrimental to our economy. Should it be OK for coal workers to lose their jobs, while not so for workers from other industries?
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 12:36 AM   #94
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It's more like 10%.
Once again demonstrating that the right isn't so good when it come to math.

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Old Nov 10, 2012, 03:29 AM   #95
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Once again demonstrating that the right isn't so good when it come to math.

No. All it means is that the right used false data from this website:
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/coalvswind/c01.html

Then as the right was corrected above (20%), the right responded with "it's more like a 10%" as indicated here:
http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/i..._united_states

The right is still off by 2% after the corrections, but the left somewhere above is off by 8% until he can find a website that provides the factual data. However, since several websites show different percentages, it's very difficult for both the right and the left to come up with "good" math.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 07:27 AM   #96
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It's more like 10%. Now, what would you suggest we do relating to this workforce? Fire them all?
.

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Last edited by balamw; Nov 10, 2012 at 11:48 AM. Reason: TIMG
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