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Old Nov 9, 2012, 03:36 PM   #26
leenak
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Here in California, there are simply too many illegals to deport them all. Can you provide any reasonable solution?
Not only that, but they are a huge source of labor which non-immigrants have no interest in doing. When my parents were teenagers growing up in California, they said that many teens used to work in the fields. Can you imagine teens these days picking up the slack for immigrants? I can't.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 03:41 PM   #27
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Not only that, but they are a huge source of labor which non-immigrants have no interest in doing. When my parents were teenagers growing up in California, they said that many teens used to work in the fields. Can you imagine teens these days picking up the slack for immigrants? I can't.

As a father of a teen that worked in the fields this summer picking strawberries, hoeing pumpkins and on a combine sorting blackberries i can definitely imagine it. He worked right along side immigrants who did this the entire year or work like it.

To state that non-immigrants do not want these jobs is both cliché and untrue. I hear your point but i think we too often make general statements and accept them as truth.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 03:56 PM   #28
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As a father of a teen that worked in the fields this summer picking strawberries, hoeing pumpkins and on a combine sorting blackberries i can definitely imagine it. He worked right along side immigrants who did this the entire year or work like it.

To state that non-immigrants do not want these jobs is both cliché and untrue. I hear your point but i think we too often make general statements and accept them as truth.
Your teen is a rarity. I've heard many stories of farms reporting that their fields were rotting because they had no workers, I wasn't just pulling that out of thin air.

Like:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...on-law-workers
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/57551.html
http://www.foodworldnews.com/article...orkers-rot.htm
http://www.cnbc.com/id/48725145
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 04:01 PM   #29
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Your teen is a rarity. I've heard many stories of farms reporting that their fields were rotting because they had no workers, I wasn't just pulling that out of thin air.

Like:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...on-law-workers
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/57551.html
http://www.foodworldnews.com/article...orkers-rot.htm
Thanks for the links but in my experience he is not a rarity.

He was out there with about 25-40% teens from his peer group. The rest i would describe as immigrants or at least immigrants in the not to distant past.

Call it the recession, call it the fact that the fact that the traditional retail jobs are harder to find (stores are just not the bastions of economic greatness they once were) there were a ton of teens in the fields around here the last couple of summers. Maybe its just Oregon but i can tell you a lot of kids wanted those jobs.

I do believe that the wages for field work have taken a jump and that could be the result of the the supply of workers.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 04:12 PM   #30
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I do believe that the wages for field work have taken a jump and that could be the result of the the supply of workers.
There's definitely a shortage here in California and it's the main driver for more mechanization. Olives are a traditionally labor intensive crop yet just recently the industry has been turned upside down by a mechanized harvester. Others are hard at work on reducing the labor required for other crops because they know immigrant labor is going to seriously dry up in the next ten years. By then the bulk of the baby boomers will have retired and good paying jobs will open up in the lower wage sectors.

Whether we like it or not, we need those immigrants.

I'm still waiting for CC to provide a reasonable solution...
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 05:07 PM   #31
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Here in California, there are simply too many illegals to deport them all. Can you provide any reasonable solution?
$100,000 dollar fine for employing an illegal.

Presto.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugg View Post
There's definitely a shortage here in California and it's the main driver for more mechanization. Olives are a traditionally labor intensive crop yet just recently the industry has been turned upside down by a mechanized harvester. Others are hard at work on reducing the labor required for other crops because they know immigrant labor is going to seriously dry up in the next ten years. By then the bulk of the baby boomers will have retired and good paying jobs will open up in the lower wage sectors.

Whether we like it or not, we need those immigrants.

I'm still waiting for CC to provide a reasonable solution...
Jobs will continually be disappearing as things become more automated, we need immigrants, but not low wage/non-skilled labor.

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Not only that, but they are a huge source of labor which non-immigrants have no interest in doing. When my parents were teenagers growing up in California, they said that many teens used to work in the fields. Can you imagine teens these days picking up the slack for immigrants? I can't.
I worked in the fields as a teen. Digging holes, not picking berries.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 05:55 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Ugg View Post
There's definitely a shortage here in California and it's the main driver for more mechanization. Olives are a traditionally labor intensive crop yet just recently the industry has been turned upside down by a mechanized harvester. Others are hard at work on reducing the labor required for other crops because they know immigrant labor is going to seriously dry up in the next ten years. By then the bulk of the baby boomers will have retired and good paying jobs will open up in the lower wage sectors.

Whether we like it or not, we need those immigrants.

I'm still waiting for CC to provide a reasonable solution...
I also think California has a challenge (and possibly other areas) in that the entire central California area only has 1 industry, farming. So people would have to specifically move there to be farm workers. The farms my parents worked when they were young are no longer there due to expanding suburbs.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 06:56 PM   #33
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1) Give up on abortion. It's settled law.
2) Quit with the breaks for the super wealthy ($250k+). That segment leans hard blue anyway, so the GOP isn't getting much back for their investment there. Interestingly enough, those just into 6 figure range go more red than blue. Keep courting them.
3) Counter the left's strategy of identity politics by repositioning as the champion of the white working class.
3b) Rebrand the family values platform as middle class values.
1) Yup. The conservatives need to find a new wedge issue. Or perhaps move away from the wedge issue strategy completely, since most of those issues seem to have evolved and can suddenly be used against them.

2) Yup.

3) Why white? Why not position yourselves as the champion for all working class? Because I know you're not implying that somehow a white person's vote is worth more than someone else's.

3b) I've never understood the GOP's resistance to embracing the Hispanic community. By and large, they are predominately Catholic. And there are some very strong religious and family values that could very easily be a commonality between the groups. But instead of embracing them, the GOP has chosen to treat them as scary brown boogeymen. That's never made a lot of sense to me.


Despite all of this, I'd personally prefer that the Republicans convince themselves that they lost because they just weren't conservative enough. And they should move even further to the right.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 07:20 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
$100,000 dollar fine for employing an illegal.

Presto.

Jobs will continually be disappearing as things become more automated, we need immigrants, but not low wage/non-skilled labor.
So, you want $30 heads of lettuce? You'd see the economies of farming states implode and you just can't remove 13 million people from the workforce without a recession at least. As usual, your 'solution' is simplistic and designed to appeal to the anti immigrant types and does nothing to solve anything.

Care to try again?

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I also think California has a challenge (and possibly other areas) in that the entire central California area only has 1 industry, farming. So people would have to specifically move there to be farm workers. The farms my parents worked when they were young are no longer there due to expanding suburbs.
That's an excellent point. Outside of a few universities and a little bit of oil near Bakersfield, California's central valley is all about agriculture. Even if the pay was decent, few Americans would want to lead the nomadic life of a farmworker. Having to relocate your kids every month or so doesn't lead to happy families. The problem of course is mono crop, corporate agriculture. Few farmers have any diversity any more. If the diversity were brought back, then people could stay in one place and raise families.

I really doubt that California farmers or American consumers are ready for the coming labor collapse.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 07:55 PM   #35
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$100,000 dollar fine for employing an illegal.
How do you plan on policing that?
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 10:40 AM   #36
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3) Counter the left's strategy of identity politics by repositioning as the champion of the white working class.
Which is exactly what got the GOP into the situation they're in now. The champion of the white working class? They are the minority in the electorate and the GOP will continue to lose since Whites are the only group the GOP appeals to.

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I'm not sure about the Asian vote but if the GOP had a different stance on immigration, Romney might have won this election. The GOP has alienated the Hispanic vote especially with their stances. If the GOP changes their tune, then it is definitely possible that the Hispanic vote could swing more in their favor.
It's not just an immigration issue. When the Republican party and right wing media constantly uses racist dog whistles not just African Americans hear them. Latinos hear them to. So putting a brown face up front saying "Hey we're OK with the illegals staying" is not going to change a thing.

----------

A post by Kevin Drum is dead on:

Quote:
"Lightening up on immigration won't be enough. Like it or not, conservatives are going to need a much more thorough housecleaning if they want to survive in an increasingly diverse future. No more gratuitous ethnic mockery. No more pretense that reverse racism is the real racism. No more suggestions that minorities just want a handout. No more screeching about the incipient threat of Sharia law. No more saturation coverage of the pathetic New Black Panthers. No more complaining that blacks get to use the N word but whites don't. No more summers of hate on Fox News. No more tolerance for Dinesh D'Souza and his "roots of Obama's rage" schtick; or for Glenn Beck saying Obama has a "deep-seated hatred of white people"; or for Rush Limbaugh claiming that "Obama's entire economic program is reparations." No more jeering at the mere concept of "diversity." And no more too-clever-by-half attempts to say all this stuff without really saying it, and then pretending to be shocked when you're called on it. Pretending might make you feel virtuous, but it doesn't fool anyone and it won't win you any new supporters."


----------

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Its because they need the Latino vote to run someone like Rubio in 2016.
You guys just don't get it. Slapping a Brown face on the same tired policies will not get minority votes. African Americans didn't vote for Allen West or Herman Cain just because they're the same race. The problem isn't the messenger. It's the message.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 10:47 AM   #37
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 10:48 AM   #38
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You guys just don't get it. Slapping a Brown face on the same tired policies will not get minority votes. African Americans didn't vote for Allen West or Herman Cain just because they're the same race. The problem isn't the messenger. It's the message.
That's the Republican way, to mimic the superficial qualities of a popular Democrat and hoping that we'll somehow overlook the policies that person is championing.

Americans may be gullible.

But we're not that gullible.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 11:04 AM   #39
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ZA is absolutely right, we need to stop trying to treat the symptom which is illegal immigrants and go after root cause of the disease which is criminal and predatory hiring practices of employers in the jobs that attract illegals.
I completely agree with this but again, we as a nation have become very dependent on immigrants for farm work. I think it'd have to be multiple things to make it happen and it won't happen overnight.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 12:07 PM   #40
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I did it when I was a teen from a middle class family living in Germany. I am so sick and tired of hearing this ********. Same as I am tired about fences and other crap the Republicans come up with. The reason why non-immigrants don't want the jobs is because they pay less than minimum wage/welfare and offer no benefits. If a food picker actually got paid minimum wage and offered even basic healthcare you would have millions of people picking up to do these jobs.
What makes illegal immigration (the practice/not the people) so toxic is that it erodes wage levels in low/non qualified jobs to the point that it becomes unattractive/impossible for nationals to work in them.
ZA is absolutely right, we need to stop trying to treat the symptom which is illegal immigrants and go after root cause of the disease which is criminal and predatory hiring practices of employers in the jobs that attract illegals.
My son and his classmates received minimum wage for fieldwork which in Oregon is even higher than the Federal minimum wage. (I believe it is $9.90 an hour). Hard work but in the scheme of things not bad pay for teens. Now if the full time people were making that wage and having to try to pay for living expenses that is a lot harder proposition. There were husband, wives and kids doing the work together out there.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 12:15 PM   #41
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Not only that, but they are a huge source of labor which non-immigrants have no interest in doing. When my parents were teenagers growing up in California, they said that many teens used to work in the fields. Can you imagine teens these days picking up the slack for immigrants? I can't.
In all seriousness, you need to meet some teens who are not above average, who are not going to (a "real") college, and who need to work with their hands. It kind of sucks for them that knowing how to speak English disqualifies them from most of the jobs that they can actually do. Telling them to go to college and to study engineering is not a strategy for success.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 05:16 PM   #42
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How do you plan on policing that?
Requiring proper SSN e checking for one. Setup a hotline after giving notice and pop a few big corporations with the fines and the rest of the industry polices itself.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 05:38 PM   #43
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In all seriousness, you need to meet some teens who are not above average, who are not going to (a "real") college, and who need to work with their hands. It kind of sucks for them that knowing how to speak English disqualifies them from most of the jobs that they can actually do. Telling them to go to college and to study engineering is not a strategy for success.
I went to high school with many of them. Something like 5% went to a 4 year college (and I'm being generous) after graduating high school. Many more went to community college but many didn't. Many went into union jobs and jobs that had benefits. Many went into the military. It was a different climate and I lived in a pretty populated area but it seemed everyone I knew that didn't go to college were able to get jobs.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 05:50 PM   #44
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GOP can't have a change of heart. That would require, you know, hearts.
Pod people from outer space don't have those.

They're incapable of true change from within. When they're faced with a situation where change is required, they feign change by using window dressing. When they went looking for a VP candidate in 2008 they thought "We need to harvest more voters of the female gender. What appeals to entities of that gender? Hmm. Probably other female entities. Find us a pleasant-looking female specimen." Computing... computing... here's one, subject "Palin".

Election lost.

"Does not compute. We offered female specimen but did not harvest sufficient amounts of voting entities class Female. Why?"

Mmm... maybe because she was a blithering idiot.

In 2016 it'll go something like this: "We need to harvest more voters of types 'darkies' and 'semi-darkies'. What appeals to such entities? Hmm... probably other 'darkies' and 'semi-darkies'. Commence search for pleasant-looking 'darkie' or 'semi-darkie'." Computing... computing...
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 05:59 PM   #45
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You want the GOP to gain traction? Have them stop their racist, misogynistic, homophobic and similar behaviors and appeal to a broad base of Americans.
Lessons learned by Canada's Conservative Party:

1. The extreme right has nowhere else to go and they're concentrated in places the party is so dominant it wouldn't make a difference if half of them stayed home.

2. The more that right-wing commentators complain about the party betraying conservative values, the more electable you are.

3. Legal abortion and marriage equality are here to stay. Promise you won't touch them. And then really p*** off liberals by keeping your promise.

Canada's had a right-wing, white Christian Fundamentalist prime minister with a personality that makes Mitt Romney look exciting, for six years now.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 08:00 PM   #46
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Lessons learned by Canada's Conservative Party:

1. The extreme right has nowhere else to go and they're concentrated in places the party is so dominant it wouldn't make a difference if half of them stayed home.

2. The more that right-wing commentators complain about the party betraying conservative values, the more electable you are.

3. Legal abortion and marriage equality are here to stay. Promise you won't touch them. And then really p*** off liberals by keeping your promise.

Canada's had a right-wing, white Christian Fundamentalist prime minister with a personality that makes Mitt Romney look exciting, for six years now.
Mitt made more money sitting on his ass last year than Harper's net worth. Harper isnt exactly a celebrity, but it seems to work out. I personally enjoy the no nonsense politics for the country i live in. The US provides me enough entertainment.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 08:51 PM   #47
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Let's hope the GOP takes a more moderate view on this (and other civil rights). I think that conservative politics on traditional conservative lines, that is, without the 1860s injection of morality, has a lot to offer us as a nation. Also, if you fast-track people currently in the country for citizenship, you've just added to your tax base.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 11:12 AM   #48
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$100,000 dollar fine for employing an illegal.
This, except I'd levy the fine and possibly criminal penalties as well on the person that actually did the hiring. A $100k fine to a corporation with deep pockets is nothing. Wal-Mart can make that back in a day from the take from a single store. But I agree with your basic idea of making the thought of hiring someone here illegally absolutely toxic.

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Originally Posted by SwiftLives
3) Why white? Why not position yourselves as the champion for all working class? Because I know you're not implying that somehow a white person's vote is worth more than someone else's.
I recall reading something (couldn't find the article, sorry) talking about how Obama basically wasn't going to bother actively campaigning for the middle class white vote. If the GOP goes after that subset, it puts a lot of solidly blue states back into at least swing territory - I'm thinking the upper Midwest, the Rust Belt, and maybe parts of New England. So white, also because (other than the numbers game - whites are still somewhere north of 70% of the total) the left has pretty much abandoned that demographic in favor of the minority and/or hyphenated-American voting blocs. Winning from the outside in rather than the inside out:


Quote:
3b) I've never understood the GOP's resistance to embracing the Hispanic community. By and large, they are predominately Catholic. And there are some very strong religious and family values that could very easily be a commonality between the groups. But instead of embracing them, the GOP has chosen to treat them as scary brown boogeymen. That's never made a lot of sense to me.
I think this is because the GOP Leadership is used to dealing with upper class Hispanics more so than lower class Hispanics, and wants to pretend the lower class behaves just like the upper class. On a side note, I've said it before, the upper class of both parties *want* illegal immigration, just for different reasons. The left, because they can push for legalization and gets lots of new D voters, and the right because they want cheap nannies and gardeners.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 11:29 AM   #49
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Winning from the outside in rather than the inside out:
Of course just describing those voters as being "outside" could help explain a few things.

And where's Buddhists on that chart? It includes Hindus but Not Buddhists?

Talk about feeling on the outside.

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Old Nov 11, 2012, 04:30 PM   #50
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I recall reading something (couldn't find the article, sorry) talking about how Obama basically wasn't going to bother actively campaigning for the middle class white vote. If the GOP goes after that subset, it puts a lot of solidly blue states back into at least swing territory - I'm thinking the upper Midwest, the Rust Belt, and maybe parts of New England. So white, also because (other than the numbers game - whites are still somewhere north of 70% of the total) the left has pretty much abandoned that demographic in favor of the minority and/or hyphenated-American voting blocs.
I live in a non-union state, so I may be wrong about this...But aren't most of the unions up north - especially in the automotive manufacturing areas - mostly working class whites? Are you trying to say Obama ignored them?

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Winning from the outside in rather than the inside out:
Image
I really don't quite understand what you mean by "outside" and "inside." I'm hoping I'm interpreting the connotation of that statement incorrectly. I'd really appreciate it if you could explain what you mean by that.
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