Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Nov 9, 2012, 02:33 PM   #26
Dmunjal
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrain View Post
No. No. No. The problem isn't that the rich are scared, but that "safe" investments minus taxes yield plenty of income. What we need are government policies that encourage riskier, US investments in high-growth areas. The second a billionaire sees no need to grow his/her income, is the second every penny of that person's investments shifts to non-growth investments. That is bad for the economy.

Taxes are a small, small factor in the investment strategy, but an important factor. They can shift an otherwise cautious portfolio to one that is more growth oriented.

Higher taxes yield job growth, economic activity and overall economic improvement for many reasons, none of which are simple.
Safe investments like bonds are at an all time low encouraging investors to gamble on risky investments instead. These don't stimulate growth. We actually need higher rates to stimulate even more savings and less consumption so the money is available to invest.

Right now, that money is coming from China which has to be paid back.

According to you, we should raise taxes to 99% to stimulate growth.
Dmunjal is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 02:44 PM   #27
Mac'nCheese
macrumors 68020
 
Mac'nCheese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
David Siegel was one of the CEOs who said he would lay off workers if Obama was re-elected. He is on CNBC right now, talking about how he will not do that now. Instead, he gave his workers raises. He says his company isn't growing and he isn't hiring but he will keep his current staff and pay them better, too.
Mac'nCheese is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 02:45 PM   #28
mcrain
Banned
 
mcrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Illinois
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
Safe investments like bonds are at an all time low encouraging investors to gamble on risky investments instead. These don't stimulate growth. We actually need higher rates to stimulate even more savings and less consumption so the money is available to invest.

Right now, that money is coming from China which has to be paid back.

According to you, we should raise taxes to 99% to stimulate growth.
I'm not talking about investments by normal people, I'm talking about the investment strategies of the uber-wealthy. Tiny changes, when you are talking about billions upon billions, make a difference.

Don't believe me? Just look at the difference in wealth distribution and investment strategies during the Clinton administration vs. Bush vs. the first 4 years of Obama (with continuation of Bush tax rates)
mcrain is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 02:46 PM   #29
tshrimp
Thread Starter
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac'nCheese View Post
David Siegel was one of the CEOs who said he would lay off workers if Obama was re-elected. He is on CNBC right now, talking about how he will not do that now. Instead, he gave his workers raises. He says his company isn't growing and he isn't hiring but he will keep his current staff and pay them better, too.
Good to hear that he doesn't have to do that. Too bad he doesn't have the ability or the confidence to grow his business and increase his labor force.
tshrimp is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 02:57 PM   #30
mcrain
Banned
 
mcrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Illinois
Quote:
Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
Good to hear that he doesn't have to do that. Too bad he doesn't have the ability or the confidence to grow his business and increase his labor force.
A billionaire doesn't have the "ability" to grow his business? You have got to be kidding. This guy could easily build more factories, hire many more people, and offer his existing workforce a raise all at the same time.

You know it, I know it, he knows it.

The only thing keeping him from doing that is that his customers are hurting because guys like him aren't paying their fair share and the economy has suffered accordingly.
mcrain is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 03:27 PM   #31
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
Good to hear that he doesn't have to do that. Too bad he doesn't have the ability or the confidence to grow his business and increase his labor force.


I thought that was supposed to be a result of demand for his product/services.

That's in his hands ... not Obama's.
citizenzen is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 03:34 PM   #32
Huntn
macrumors 604
 
Huntn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Misty Mountains
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSpackler View Post

I personally think human advancement is us moving away from corrupt, State controlled power structures.
The key point is not to accept corruption, not to do away with government. Societies need structure. Anarchy is not an option, IMO. Our potential lies in cooperation, not every person for themselves.
__________________
The modern business ethos: "I'm worth it, you're not, and I'm a glutton!"
MBP, 2.2 GHz intel i7, Radeon HD 6750M, Bootcamp: W7.
PC: i5 4670k, 8GB RAM, Asus GTX670 (2GB VRAM), W7.
Huntn is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 03:39 PM   #33
robanga
macrumors 68000
 
robanga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oregon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
The key point is not to accept corruption, not to do away with government. Societies need structure. Anarchy is not an option, IMO. Our potential lies in cooperation, not every person for themselves.
Its an imperfect system to be sure and there is a fine line between too little cooperation and too much. Beyond the question of corruption, which pretty much anyone says they are against, you have the questions of efficiency. Many people argue that the public sector is highly inefficient when compared with the private which like all these arguments has its truths and non-truths.

This is why the checks and balances in democracy are so important. One group checks the power of the other group.
__________________
Soli Deo gloria
robanga is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 04:39 PM   #34
Anuba
macrumors 68040
 
Anuba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
Health care cost have been increasing every year regardless of who is president.
I'm looking at those numbers now and it's absolutely mental. Allow me to use my own country, one of those countries that haunts Michele Bachmann's nightmares of Marxist-Leninist-Hitlerist-Satanism, as a reference point...

Total health expenditure per capita
USA: 7,960 USD
Sweden: 3,722 USD

Expenditure on pharmaceuticals per capita, prescribed+over-the-counter
USA: 947 USD
Sweden: 437 USD

Yikes. Looks like the size of the average American medicine cabinet is about the size of the average Swedish refrigerator.

Now, I'm no rocket scientist, but I'm thinking that the staggering difference probably comes down to this: In Sweden, with its socialized health care, the responsible party's goal is to keep the costs down. In the US, an individual is an object to which a cluster of money hungry businesses (insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, doctors etc) attaches and comes up with new creative ways to maximize the spending.

You'd hope that these astronomical costs would at least pay off by giving Americans long and healthy lives, while Swedes live short and miserable health care-deprived lives, but...

Life expectancy
Sweden: 80,9 yrs
USA: 78,2 yrs

Oh, dang.

Last edited by Anuba; Nov 9, 2012 at 04:45 PM.
Anuba is offline   7 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 04:55 PM   #35
Anuba
macrumors 68040
 
Anuba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by robanga View Post
This is why the checks and balances in democracy are so important. One group checks the power of the other group.
Or cancels out the power of the other group by stalling, sabotaging, filibustering, and nothing ever gets done.

Most countries get by with just a single parliament equivalent of the US congress. They tell you in advance what they're gonna do. Then they do it, unobstructed. If it doesn't work, you vote for the other guys in the next election. Having three different bodies guarding each other just seems paranoid... what're they gonna do? Trash the place?
Anuba is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 04:59 PM   #36
Dmunjal
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrain View Post
I'm not talking about investments by normal people, I'm talking about the investment strategies of the uber-wealthy. Tiny changes, when you are talking about billions upon billions, make a difference.

Don't believe me? Just look at the difference in wealth distribution and investment strategies during the Clinton administration vs. Bush vs. the first 4 years of Obama (with continuation of Bush tax rates)
I'm talking about the same thing. This is now a global economy and money goes where there is the lowest taxes and the highest yield. Why do you think money ends up in Switzerland, Singapore, and the Caymans?

Even US multi-nationals are not investing in the US and keep their money offshore. Lower taxes and higher interest rates from the Fed will bring money INTO the US for investments.

You can't compare the 90s to the 2000s and say one was better than the other. The 90s was a stock-market bubble that ended badly just like the housing bubble ended badly. At the height of the housing bubble in 2005, the middle class actually had considerable wealth (equity in their over-priced homes). The problem with that was the the wealth evaporated when the bubble burst. Clinton's economy was built on the same kind of bubble so taxes had nothing to do with it.

The real reason we have a wealth disparity (that actually started in the 70s) is because of the Federal Reserve and their money printing strategy since we came off the gold standard in 1971. That new money goes first to the bankers and uber-wealthy who invest in what they want (tech stocks, housing) and drive up prices for everyone else. Once the prices have reached their nadir, the pull the plug and the middle class ends up losing. If they do lose any money, we bail them out with borrowed dollars from China and print the difference. The extra printing drives up food and energy prices which disproportionately hurt the poor and middle class.

Nominal incomes of the last 40 years have actually increased so salaries are going up. So why is their a wealth disparity. The problem is that prices of everything are going up faster so we feel poorer than before. Why are prices going up? Because the Fed is printing money which dilutes the dollar driving up prices of everything else. But the rich don't feel this inflation because their assets go up even faster because they get the money first.
Dmunjal is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 05:03 PM   #37
entatlrg
macrumors Demi-God
 
entatlrg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Waterloo & Georgian Bay, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
I feel sorry for all the small business owners out there, and I will be praying for your continued success in light of what will be coming your way.

http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/gru...offs-you-voted
Ignorance is bliss.

I'm pro Obama and ecstatic Romney lost thereby delaying the next world war.

Give the people healthcare and some security. No need for the rich and big business to have it all, it's the middle class that built North America, time for fair play. GO OBAMA!!!
entatlrg is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 05:11 PM   #38
Zombie Acorn
macrumors 65816
 
Zombie Acorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Quote:
Originally Posted by entatlrg View Post
Ignorance is bliss.

I'm pro Obama and ecstatic Romney lost thereby delaying the next world war.

Give the people healthcare and some security. No need for the rich and big business to have it all, it's the middle class that built North America, time for fair play. GO OBAMA!!!
You aren't giving people health care, you are forcing them to buy it from a private corporation or pay a tax. Huge difference.
__________________
--2.6 C2Q 4gb DDR3 GTX 260-Win 7--
--2.0 CE Macbook Alum-Leopard--
Zombie Acorn is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 05:15 PM   #39
rdowns
macrumors Penryn
 
rdowns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post


I thought that was supposed to be a result of demand for his product/services.

That's in his hands ... not Obama's.

You have it all wrong. Obama can't create jobs or take credit for jobs created but all job losses are his fault. Where have you been the last 4 years?
rdowns is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 05:26 PM   #40
Lord Blackadder
macrumors G4
 
Lord Blackadder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sod off
We voted against a repressive, backward social platform and a rich-people-first fiscal policy.
__________________
Oh, God, God, God! What on earth was I drinking last night? My head feels like there's a Frenchman living in it. - Edmund Blackadder
Lord Blackadder is offline   4 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 05:37 PM   #41
noteple
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy h View Post
We have a Conservative government that is trying to cut everything they can find to cut and as we head at full steam for a triple dip recession here there's a lot of debate that cutting demand is actually proving counter productive when trying to pay down debt.
Who might that be, and he does that align with the national debt
noteple is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 05:38 PM   #42
Kashchei
macrumors 65816
 
Kashchei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Meat Space
Send a message via MSN to Kashchei Send a message via Yahoo to Kashchei Send a message via Skype™ to Kashchei
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
You aren't giving people health care, you are forcing them to buy it from a private corporation or pay a tax. Huge difference.
How progressive of you to argue for a single-payer system like the one you currently enjoy in Canada
__________________
Hungry enough to touch your frightened face
Kashchei is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 05:53 PM   #43
skunk
macrumors Demi-God
 
skunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Republic of Ukistan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anuba View Post
Having three different bodies guarding each other just seems paranoid... what're they gonna do? Trash the place?
The odds of that happening are unfortunately quite high.
__________________
"The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted the spoons." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
skunk is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 06:04 PM   #44
Zombie Acorn
macrumors 65816
 
Zombie Acorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kashchei View Post
How progressive of you to argue for a single-payer system like the one you currently enjoy in Canada
Supporter since 2009.
__________________
--2.6 C2Q 4gb DDR3 GTX 260-Win 7--
--2.0 CE Macbook Alum-Leopard--
Zombie Acorn is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 06:30 PM   #45
Anuba
macrumors 68040
 
Anuba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kashchei View Post
How progressive of you to argue for a single-payer system like the one you currently enjoy in Canada
Why argue for anything else when the numbers tell the whole story. The US healthcare system is the most costly in the world yet it's ranked #37. It's a giant tumor which unfortunately was left untreated for way too long. It now accounts for a whopping 17% of the GDP, has a massive cluster of stakeholders attached to it, and they do everything in their power to brainwash everyone into believing that universal health care is the worst idea in the history of man.
Anuba is offline   5 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 06:48 PM   #46
senseless
macrumors 65816
 
senseless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
I don't know about you, but I'm happier knowing my waiter and food preparer is getting regular checkups. If every restaurant chain is faced with the same increase in health insurance cost, they will simply raise prices to cover it. There is no competitive disadvantage.
senseless is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 06:51 PM   #47
Zombie Acorn
macrumors 65816
 
Zombie Acorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Quote:
Originally Posted by senseless View Post
I don't know about you, but I'm happier knowing my waiter and food preparer is getting regular checkups. If every restaurant chain is faced with the same increase in health insurance cost, they will simply raise prices to cover it. There is no competitive disadvantage.
Restaurants provide health benefits?
__________________
--2.6 C2Q 4gb DDR3 GTX 260-Win 7--
--2.0 CE Macbook Alum-Leopard--
Zombie Acorn is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 07:09 PM   #48
xlii
macrumors 68000
 
xlii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Millis, Massachusetts
Dems or Republicans... it is all the same s***. We have been voluntarily exporting American jobs to China and India name your low wage country of the decades... since the 1980s. It started with unskilled labor and now it's the hardware and software engineers and anyone else whose job can be exported are not exempt. Figure out how to stop and reverse that and I'd vote for you to be President. My guess is that the plan is to lower wages in the US until they = wages in the developing world. Then the exporting of jobs will stop.

This countries economy will not see any improvement until that happens. We've cut off the manufacturing leg of a 3 legged stool and we are now reaping the results. I always believed that manufacturing created wealth and the service economy just moved wealth around.
xlii is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 07:27 PM   #49
thewitt
macrumors 68000
 
thewitt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
The class envy and total lack of understanding of how the economy actually works by the people on this forum would be funny if it were not also the same misunderstanding that the rest of America seems to have.

Th Federal government CANNOT stimulate the economy by spending tax dollars on infrastructure projects.

Wake up people.

Economic growth occurs only when you create something, sell it at a profit, then reinvest that profit to grow your business.

Everything else is simply overhead.

I cannot believe you still think you can tax your way to prosperity.

My company will be moving another 150 jobs overseas this year due to confiscatory tax policies. We cannot afford to bring foreign profits back to the US where the government will now take 50%, therefor we will expand our foreign offices and invest overseas profits there instead.

You can thank the current administration for those job losses.

It's a global economy. Businesses have choices. If you make it hard to do business, we will go where it's not so hard. It's that simple.
thewitt is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 9, 2012, 07:27 PM   #50
Anuba
macrumors 68040
 
Anuba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by xlii View Post
Dems or Republicans... it is all the same s***. We have been voluntarily exporting American jobs to China and India name your low wage country of the decades... since the 1980s. It started with unskilled labor and now it's the hardware and software engineers and anyone else whose job can be exported are not exempt.
It stops when consumers stop buying products made in East Asia and start buying products made in the USA. You vote with your wallet. Here's one starting point of many: http://madeinusaforever.com
Start a movement, introduce a logo that manufacturers can put on packaging to let customers find US-made products easily.
As long as consumers opt for the cheaper Asia-made alternatives to save a few bucks, the consumers are the ones exporting jobs to Asia.
Anuba is offline   0 Reply With Quote


Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
CNBC survey shows millionaires want higher taxes to fix inequality Michael Goff Politics, Religion, Social Issues 74 May 19, 2014 08:23 AM
Higher DPI Means Higher Resolution (Really?) leerkeller Digital Photography 4 Jun 13, 2013 08:37 AM
No Alternative Minimum Tax patch could mean higher taxes for most ugahairydawgs Politics, Religion, Social Issues 37 Dec 29, 2012 09:28 AM
Apple Retail Stores Seeing Significant Layoffs of Recent Hires? MacRumors MacRumors.com News Discussion 410 Aug 26, 2012 03:15 PM
What's the highest up-voted post that you have seen? macbook pro i5 Wasteland 18 Jun 24, 2012 12:03 AM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:53 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC