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Old Nov 11, 2012, 11:19 AM   #26
citizenzen
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I don't want to piss off my liberal friends, but I actually can see where surgery could be considered elective.

Please consider this ...

Let's imagine that a person is born with the traits of being a woman, but the body of a man. Isn't the real solution simply letting those womanly traits be expressed freely? I imagine that the real crux of the problem is not what is between one's legs, but feeling as if one can be accepted for who they are.

Sex change surgery seems to me about aligning one's outward appearance to one's inward proclivity in order that society can more easily make sense of the whole person and accept them.

I realize that we don't yet live in that society, though I do believe we're evolving towards it.

But I do believe if we saw sexuality as a wide range and accepted that range, there'd be less reason to alter oneself physically and a greater acceptance both outwardly and inwardly towards the body we were born with.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 11:48 AM   #27
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I agree with you citizenzen but I also think (from what I've read/heard) that the transgender population understands the spectrum of sexuality more than any of us. I've known a few people who were born female and had mastectomies and that was the extent of their 'sex change'. They must also have very understanding partners because at least one of them identifies as a gay male. I think it'd be a lot easier for many people in general if we accepted that there is a spectrum. I just don't think we are anywhere near there.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 12:33 PM   #28
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I had that surgery, paid for by my government via nationalised healthcare, I'm not certain I'd still be alive were it not offered, I certainly wouldn't be in the position I am now whereby my career has me poised to pay back substantially more tax than it cost.

It's not cosmetic, it's not done on a whim and all too often denial of treatment results in suicide.

If you take offence to it, I'll politely invite you to suck it the **** up.


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Originally Posted by Muscle Master View Post
That's just wrong... and nasty

I'm sorry if i offend, I have plenty of gay friends and have no hate towards them at all.. but I can't stand sex changes.. especially sex changes when they go wrong.. ughh I can't even give an example. its funny that my homosexual friends agree with me also
If you're sorry then don't spew such offensive and ignorant twaddle.

It's not funny that your homosexual friends agree with you, it's merely a reflection of the sorry state of casual transphobia within the LGBT community, I've seen it myself and it makes me sick.

This isn't a joke, this is our lives, our dignity and our healthcare and for you to trivially joke about cases where they've "gone wrong" is nothing but petty schadenfreude.

Last edited by Mord; Nov 11, 2012 at 12:54 PM.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 01:00 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I don't want to piss off my liberal friends, but I actually can see where surgery could be considered elective.

Please consider this ...

Let's imagine that a person is born with the traits of being a woman, but the body of a man. Isn't the real solution simply letting those womanly traits be expressed freely? I imagine that the real crux of the problem is not what is between one's legs, but feeling as if one can be accepted for who they are.

Sex change surgery seems to me about aligning one's outward appearance to one's inward proclivity in order that society can more easily make sense of the whole person and accept them.

I realize that we don't yet live in that society, though I do believe we're evolving towards it.

But I do believe if we saw sexuality as a wide range and accepted that range, there'd be less reason to alter oneself physically and a greater acceptance both outwardly and inwardly towards the body we were born with.
Ahh...that is where you wrong. The struggle leading up to the procedure is not about society accepting the individual at all. It's about the individual accepting him/herself.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 01:07 PM   #30
Mord
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Ahh...that is where you wrong. The struggle leading up to the procedure is not about society accepting the individual at all. It's about the individual accepting him/herself.
Bingo, society accepted me for who I was for a good few years before I had that surgery, I did it entirely for myself.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 02:15 PM   #31
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It's not cosmetic, it's not done on a whim and all too often denial of treatment results in suicide.
Its also not really that expensive. $25k is what you pay in income taxes over a couple of years or so - and that doesn't cover the fact that therapy isn't exactly cheap either.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 03:02 PM   #32
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Its also not really that expensive. $25k is what you pay in income taxes over a couple of years or so - and that doesn't cover the fact that therapy isn't exactly cheap either.
Funnily it wasn't even the most expensive surgery I've had, I also had some on my feet for a fairly minor issue (hammer toes) which narrowly cost more at about a shade over 10k.

Obviously I'm sure you can imagine which surgery was more life changing, yet the surgery on my feet was to correct a problem that was causing me physical pain, so few people would argue against covering it, yet to me physical pain is pretty trivial compared to having to go through all that to feel comfortable with myself and thrive.

It's a healthcare issue plain and simple, one that most people don't understand because it's impossible to walk a mile in our shoes.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 03:08 PM   #33
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Just when you think California has run out of stories that make you shake your head....
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 03:50 PM   #34
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Just when you think California has run out of stories that make you shake your head....
Mmmm heartless transphobia.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 04:03 PM   #35
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Mmmm heartless transphobia.
...mixed in with willful ignorance.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 04:31 PM   #36
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Mmmm heartless transphobia.
Oh geez.

If there's a lady out there that thinks she'd feel better about herself as a dude, then go right ahead. Just don't see any logical way why this tab should be picked up by a government entity
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 04:41 PM   #37
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Oh geez.

If there's a lady out there that thinks she'd feel better about herself as a dude, then go right ahead. Just don't see any logical way why this tab should be picked up by a government entity
*shakes head*

Where is the line drawn, then? Are hysterectomy's covered? Vasectomy's? Therapy? Psychotherapy? Anti-depressant's? Fertility treatments? I'm sure you would be amazed by the number of things that are covered - but this seems to be a subject ripe for ignorance and misinterpretation.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 07:20 PM   #38
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Have a nice day

Last edited by ugahairydawgs; Nov 11, 2012 at 07:25 PM. Reason: No sense in arguing over this
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 07:34 PM   #39
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I don't know about much of that, some of those (vasectomies and fertility treatments jump out immediately) should be no way, no how. But you won't have to convince me about wasteful govt spending.

Back to the OP though, I still don't see how this should be a paid for by the govt expense. I get that there are emotional benefits and things like that, but you could say the same thing about losing weight for people with thyroid issues too. Doesn't meant the government should start shelling out for gastric bypass.
Well, a gastric bypass would be cheaper than all of the money the government shells out for people who eat/smoke themselves into heart problems. My girlfriend died from complications of a congenital heart defect and 4 years later I'm still paying her medial bills - meanwhile her father got his quadruple bypass paid for by insurance. And he still drinks daily and is 100 pounds overweight.

There are plenty of things the government wastes money on - and in the case of the OP, this is not something that is done on a whim - as Mord has said. Extensive therapy is required and standards have to be met before someone is approved for the surgery. There are lesser mental health issues that are covered, and if you look at the suicide rates for pre-op transexuals it really is easy to see why it should be covered.

One would think that a lifetime of therapy and anti-depressants would cost more than this surgery.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 07:44 PM   #40
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.
I'm sorry for your loss
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 10:57 PM   #41
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That's just wrong... and nasty

I'm sorry if i offend, I have plenty of gay friends and have no hate towards them at all.. but I can't stand sex changes.. especially sex changes when they go wrong.. ughh I can't even give an example. its funny that my homosexual friends agree with me also
This isn't a topic of familiarity for me, but how does the fact that your friends are gay lend them any credibility on this subject?
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 11:00 PM   #42
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This isn't a topic of familiarity for me, but how does the fact that your friends are gay lend them any credibility on this subject?
I suppose it demonstrates that even gay people can be transphobic. Which is to say, it is completely irrelevant.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:31 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Muscle Master View Post
That's just wrong... and nasty

I'm sorry if i offend, I have plenty of gay friends and have no hate towards them at all.. but I can't stand sex changes.. especially sex changes when they go wrong.. ughh I can't even give an example. its funny that my homosexual friends agree with me also
If you can't stand them, don't get one. In the meantime, try educating yourself and being less judgmental about things which you clearly don't understand. I really doubt you have gay friends, and if you do, they sound like uneducated ones.

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Transgender and homosexuality aren't the same thing and from my knowledge, which is limited, transgender people seem to be as misunderstood by homos as they are by heteros.
This is true. The lumping together of every kind of sexual minority does not necessarily mean there is easy or instant understanding amongst them. Quite the contrary, actually. It makes for a long ass acronym and that's all.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:35 AM   #44
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I suppose it demonstrates that even gay people can be transphobic. Which is to say, it is completely irrelevant.
They're sometimes consolidated to a degree in politics, given the abbreviation "LGBT". I don't understand the topic, so I don't presume to know how it should be handled. There are just too many preconceived notions at times in place of educated opinions, and they annoy me.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 01:22 AM   #45
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They're sometimes consolidated to a degree in politics, given the abbreviation "LGBT". I don't understand the topic, so I don't presume to know how it should be handled. There are just too many preconceived notions at times in place of educated opinions, and they annoy me.
Personally, I think being trans is different than being lesbian, gay or bisexual so I never understood the lumping together. But, so be it.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 04:39 AM   #46
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Transgender people have a much higher suicide rate than other people, but gender reassignment doesn't seem to help. I can't help but wonder why this is - perhaps it is that even after gender reassignment they are still not accepted by society.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 04:40 AM   #47
Mord
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Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
Oh geez.

If there's a lady out there that thinks she'd feel better about herself as a dude, then go right ahead. Just don't see any logical way why this tab should be picked up by a government entity
No one does this because they just think they'll feel a bit better, they do it because they feel they have no other choice.

Having actually bothered to read the article now the whole thing is slanted to evoke negative reactions, what they're doing is adopting healthcare coverage that is non-discriminatory. Medically treatment for gender issues like these is deemed necessary though typically private insurance contains exclusions based on prejudice and the unfortunate fact that it's a pre-existing condition, one we typically know about from age 3-4. You don't just come to the conclusion that you're trans and even if you do there's no way to prove that you didn't know before hand. It's just not suited to the individual insurance model, this seems to have carried over for plans to cover large groups of people, mostly I imagine due to prejudice and pre-conception of those in the decision making process.

How would you have liked it if you needed to raise $20k at age 18 before being able to have sex, go swimming, wear comfortable clothes without exposing yourself to ridicule, or even just enjoy taking a shower without feeling intense physical self loathing?

These feelings don't go away, there is no psychiatric cure, anti-depressants don't help, even therapy isn't offered to help us, it's the protect surgeons from legal action should someone seek treatment for the wrong reasons.

Without it we're driven to sex work, drugs, crime, suicide and at best an uncomfortable, unproductive life of miserable self loathing. This isn't just extending charity, it makes sense, it gets people the care they need to be productive and socially responsible people.

Please don't let such sensationalist slant in the media


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Transgender people have a much higher suicide rate than other people, but gender reassignment doesn't seem to help. I can't help but wonder why this is - perhaps it is that even after gender reassignment they are still not accepted by society.
I disagree and I'd ask if you could provide any serious evidence to back up that claim? I've seen plenty of really quite flawed studies comparing post-op transsexuals to the general population drawing the obvious conclusion that those with a troubled past tend to be bias towards having a still troubled future and assuming that this implies the surgery is not worthwhile.

The reason I feel so very very strongly on this issue is just how much I love my life now, I couldn't have imagined how well things turned out for me and it pretty much all rested on getting the care and treatment I needed.

I'll also add that I'm accepted just fine thanks, not that I publicly announce the fact or that you'd tell from meeting me. Times are changing and even those of us who are more visible are having a much better time of it than they used to.

Last edited by Mord; Nov 12, 2012 at 04:51 AM.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 07:02 AM   #48
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Unreal. The lunatics are clearly running the asylum.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 07:24 AM   #49
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I think that this both right and proper, and should be seen as a health issue.
In the European Union since June 2003 it is covered by your health insurance companythey cannot refuse treatment. This a ruling by the ECHR.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 08:41 AM   #50
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I'm sorry for your loss
Thank you. My point, though, was that so many procedures that are covered are much more unwarranted than this one. It seems like this is so easily dismissed because of ignorance and just plain old not being able to understand - or not wanting to understand.

The reality is that we pay for people who have made themselves ill - and it doesn't get nearly the attention or negativity that a procedure like this does. Why is that?

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Unreal. The lunatics are clearly running the asylum.
And you, sir, are a perfect example. I'm sure you saw "sex change" and didn't read any further.

In this case it appears that the "lunatics" are a lot more educated than those actually running the asylum.
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