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Old Nov 13, 2012, 11:24 AM   #126
Mord
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Originally Posted by sk1wbw View Post
That's assuming that being the wrong sex at birth is a medical condition and not a mental condition?
Mental conditions are medical conditions, though that quibble is irrelevant so I'll go with what I assume you mean, which is that our identities are "valid".

The answer to this is yes and this is a fact that's accepted by the mainstream medical establishment.

This is based upon as Blue Velvet said, over 60 years of research that has shown that it's impossible to alter the mind, it's not a delusion it's a state of being and our personalities are what fundamentally define who and what we are, not our bodies which conveniently are mutable.

Promoting and providing any other form of "treatment" that encourages suppression of these feelings is grounds for malpractice and for good reason.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 01:15 PM   #127
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...
Finally, to tie the above together with a sex change op. If anyone was born with the wrong set of genitals for who they really are, I'd say that's one hell of a disadvantage in the race, one that will lead to a life in misery. And if you think that such a thing isn't possible, that these individuals are just afflicted with some wonky psychosomatic disorder that leads them to falsely believe they belong on the other side of the gender fence, I'd encourage you to google images of Walter Carlos, who later became Wendy. There are some pics online from the 60's when she was still Walter. What do you see? A guy? I see a person whose appearance screams WOMAN but who's trying her damnedest to fit in the role of a man, overcompensating by sporting the biggest sideburns in history but ending up looking like a woman in drag. On the rare occasion, that biological coin toss doesn't work the way it's supposed to. It can be corrected. Nobody does it for fun.
Off topic, but Wendy Carlos made amazing music for her time. Your post reminded me of that and I looked up the price of the Switched-on CD boxed set. It's 400!
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 09:12 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Mord View Post
Mental conditions are medical conditions, though that quibble is irrelevant so I'll go with what I assume you mean, which is that our identities are "valid".

The answer to this is yes and this is a fact that's accepted by the mainstream medical establishment.

This is based upon as Blue Velvet said, over 60 years of research that has shown that it's impossible to alter the mind, it's not a delusion it's a state of being and our personalities are what fundamentally define who and what we are, not our bodies which conveniently are mutable.

Promoting and providing any other form of "treatment" that encourages suppression of these feelings is grounds for malpractice and for good reason.
So I can say my lack of a BMW 550i is a mental condition because I'm not happy unless I have one. So now I demand the taxpayers buy me one, right?
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 09:20 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by sk1wbw View Post
So I can say my lack of a BMW 550i is a mental condition because I'm not happy unless I have one. So now I demand the taxpayers buy me one, right?
This response shows you haven't really been reading any of Mord's posts. It also shows that you are unwilling to learn about something you obviously don't understand. And to make that comparison....

To play along, I bet the taxpayers would pay for your trips to a therapist and some meds, though.

The fact that everyone is so stuck on the actual surgery is very telling. I've asked this numerous times in the thread - Where is your outrage when our taxes are paying for chemo for a life-long smoker? Or paying for a bypass surgery for someone who has been eating McDonald's every day for 25 years? Those examples are costing us WAY more money than the type of operation the OP is talking about.

People see the words "sex change" and apparently lose all logic and reason.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 09:40 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
This response shows you haven't really been reading any of Mord's posts. It also shows that you are unwilling to learn about something you obviously don't understand. And to make that comparison....

To play along, I bet the taxpayers would pay for your trips to a therapist and some meds, though.

The fact that everyone is so stuck on the actual surgery is very telling. I've asked this numerous times in the thread - Where is your outrage when our taxes are paying for chemo for a life-long smoker? Or paying for a bypass surgery for someone who has been eating McDonald's every day for 25 years? Those examples are costing us WAY more money than the type of operation the OP is talking about.

People see the words "sex change" and apparently lose all logic and reason.
Wanting a sex change at someone else's expense, including YOURS, is wrong. Remember, if you wouldn't YOUR money to pay for my BMW, then I don't want MY money paying for someone's sex change. It's that simple. You can't pick and choose what's a "disorder" in order to to satisfy someone. It's a waste of money.

And stop with that stupid ass analogy of McDonald's. It's old.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 09:42 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
People see the words "sex change" and apparently lose all logic and reason.
That's because god doesn't make "mistakes" (their view), so it must be a choice, for sure.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 09:55 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by sk1wbw View Post
Wanting a sex change at someone else's expense, including YOURS, is wrong. Remember, if you wouldn't YOUR money to pay for my BMW, then I don't want MY money paying for someone's sex change. It's that simple. You can't pick and choose what's a "disorder" in order to to satisfy someone. It's a waste of money.

And stop with that stupid ass analogy of McDonald's. It's old.
You can't even compare the two - and the fact that you think they are even in the same realm just shows how unwilling you are to learn.

Who would you have pick and choose what is a "disorder"? You? Or maybe the DSM?

You may think it's stupid and old, but I notice you didn't answer my question. We're paying for people RIGHT NOW who have made themselves sick and you don't seem to have any issues with that. You don't think that is a waste of my money? And it's costing us so much more....

But a "sex change" operation, and all of a sudden you care. It's a horrible double standard. I can't think of anything other than ignorance to explain why this seems to create so much ire.

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That's because god doesn't make "mistakes" (their view), so it must be a choice, for sure.
If only we had the ability to walk in someone else's shoes - even for just a day....
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 10:01 AM   #133
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I notice you didn't answer my question. We're paying for people RIGHT NOW who have made themselves sick and you don't seem to have any issues with that... It's a horrible double standard.
If I already have a problem with my tax dollars going towards "paying for people RIGHT NOW who have made themselves sick" - which I do very much have a problem with and always have had a problem with - have I met the Non Double-Standard Standard for having a problem with my tax dollars going towards someone else's sex change?
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 10:03 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by sk1wbw View Post
Wanting a sex change at someone else's expense, including YOURS, is wrong. Remember, if you wouldn't YOUR money to pay for my BMW, then I don't want MY money paying for someone's sex change. It's that simple. You can't pick and choose what's a "disorder" in order to to satisfy someone. It's a waste of money.

And stop with that stupid ass analogy of McDonald's. It's old.
It's really quite hilarious how you're complaining about the use of an analogy you merely dislike when you're comparing a recognised necessary medical treatment for a serious disorder to a luxury car.

You let me know next time a doctor prescribes you a 5 series but your healthcare plan won't foot the bill

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Old Nov 14, 2012, 10:08 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by kavika411 View Post
If I already have a problem with my tax dollars going towards "paying for people RIGHT NOW who have made themselves sick" - which I do very much have a problem with and always have had a problem with - have I met the Non Double-Standard Standard for having a problem with my tax dollars going towards someone else's sex change?
Ummm....yes?

I would also hope that those who clearly know nothing about this particular issue educate themselves (or at least be open to education) before making nonsensical comparisons.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 10:55 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by sk1wbw View Post
Wanting a sex change at someone else's expense, including YOURS, is wrong. Remember, if you wouldn't YOUR money to pay for my BMW, then I don't want MY money paying for someone's sex change. It's that simple. You can't pick and choose what's a "disorder" in order to to satisfy someone. It's a waste of money.

And stop with that stupid ass analogy of McDonald's. It's old.
Stop playing the "YOUR money" analogy. According to the previously posted statistics, the cost to society is negligible. If the issue is actually YOUR money, let's talk about money borrowed from the Federal government being used to pay for bonuses for bankers in banks that were losing money. That's real money.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/bu...1pay.html?_r=1

Are we talking about taxpayer money, or, are we just uncomfortable talking about gender identity disorders?
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 11:20 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk View Post
Stop playing the "YOUR money" analogy.
Analogy? From where do you think tax money is derived?

Quote:
According to the previously posted statistics, the cost to society is negligible.
It would be even a more negligible cost to society for the government to give me a million dollars, hence why the negligible-cost-to-society the most inept of all spending markers.

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If the issue is actually YOUR money, let's talk about money borrowed from the Federal government being used to pay for bonuses for bankers in banks that were losing money.
Let's indeed, but in a different thread.

Quote:
Are we talking about taxpayer money, or, are we just uncomfortable talking about gender identity disorders?
Ah. So if someone is against this issue - taxpayer-funded sex changes - then they are "just uncomfortable talking about gender identity disorders."

Love it. The new race card.

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Old Nov 14, 2012, 11:55 AM   #138
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Ah. So if someone is against this issue - taxpayer-funded sex changes - then they are "just uncomfortable talking about gender identity disorders."

Love it. The new race card.
I certainly don't think everyone who is against this issue is "uncomfortable talking about gender identity disorders", but let's be honest. Looking at some of the comments in this thread, it's obvious that a) people are commenting from a place of complete ignorance and b) people don't seem interested in learning.

Let's not pretend that everyone is so enlightened. This is America, after all. We are champions of ignoring and withholding from those who aren't like us.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 04:36 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
This response shows you haven't really been reading any of Mord's posts. It also shows that you are unwilling to learn about something you obviously don't understand. And to make that comparison....

To play along, I bet the taxpayers would pay for your trips to a therapist and some meds, though.

The fact that everyone is so stuck on the actual surgery is very telling. I've asked this numerous times in the thread - Where is your outrage when our taxes are paying for chemo for a life-long smoker? Or paying for a bypass surgery for someone who has been eating McDonald's every day for 25 years? Those examples are costing us WAY more money than the type of operation the OP is talking about.

People see the words "sex change" and apparently lose all logic and reason.
There's a tendency to see sexual reassignment surgeries as a hard-core vanity, more than a nose or boob job, but similar in terms of moral equivalencies.

I guess the question then is should government insurance cover any kind of plastic surgery, including facial reconstruction, skin grafts, etc. Beyond the medical necessity of say grafting skin on a burn victim, is there a limit to what kinds of procedures should be covered and why?
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 07:33 PM   #140
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This is ridiculous. NO tax payer should be responsible for someones sex change. Plain and simple. All I hear are stupid excuses of why, we the people should help pay for such a thing. Pay for your own sex change with your own money if you want it done. If your too poor to pay for it, save up.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 08:09 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Vanilla Ice View Post
This is ridiculous. NO tax payer should be responsible for someones sex change. Plain and simple. All I hear are stupid excuses of why, we the people should help pay for such a thing. Pay for your own sex change with your own money if you want it done. If your too poor to pay for it, save up.
Who's making excuses? I think at the root of it is people not understanding why a surgery like this is needed. Is it a matter of vanity or mental health? Most who disagree seem to think it's a matter of vanity, but science has proven that isn't the case.

Where should we draw the line? If a lifelong smoker needs chemotherapy and can't afford it would you tell them to wait and save up for it? What if they can't? Does it make a difference if it's a life or death situation? Our taxes, through medicare, have been paying for less necessary and preventable procedures for years. We've also been paying for therapy and the medications that go with a myriad of mental health disorders. We pay for lifetime supplies for some people. How is that any different than this type of operation? Or would you advocate just sending someone with a gender identity disorder to therapy and prescribing them meds for life? Would that be cheaper? Or better? The suicide rates really are alarming.

It's also telling that the proposed changes in coverage that the OP details also includes adding hearing aids and acupuncture - one could make a capable argument that both of those are less necessary. Yet it's the sex change surgery that is taking the heat.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 12:05 AM   #142
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Whether any given procedure is necessary or not should be up to the medical professionals. Medical literature seems to support the necessity of sexual reassignment surgery. Being capable of understanding the impetus for the procedure is outside of the scope of my brain, but much like I don't understand the nuances of a nuclear reactor, I trust nonetheless that I'm not going to wake up exploded.

But hey, what a crazy world we'd live in if we trusted scientific consensus over our gut feelings and drawings of eagles and flags. This is the internet, after all, where everyone is an expert on everything.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 02:06 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Vanilla Ice View Post
This is ridiculous. NO tax payer should be responsible for someones sex change. Plain and simple. All I hear are stupid excuses of why, we the people should help pay for such a thing. Pay for your own sex change with your own money if you want it done. If your too poor to pay for it, save up.
All this thread has achieved is that it's proven to me that posters such as yourself don't give a crap about meaningful discussion, you ignore posts that push you into a corner, you refuse to acknowledge your own prejudice and you just insist on spewing the same crap again and again.

We've engaged with your crap, engage with what you perceive to be ours, if you refuse to do that why the hell are you even participating in such a forum?

Why do you think the medical establishment and my own personal life experience is "stupid"?
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 03:24 AM   #144
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Honestly, this thread needs to end.

The amount of ignorance in here is absolutely disgusting and makes my blood boil. The fact that there are people here arguing against the DSM just proves once again the amount of ignorance that plagues conservative ideology.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 04:48 AM   #145
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I didn't know most of you people on PSRI were from SF and payed city taxes that paid for these sex changes, you guys should update your locations.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 05:10 AM   #146
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All this thread has achieved is that it's proven to me that posters such as yourself don't give a crap about meaningful discussion, you ignore posts that push you into a corner, you refuse to acknowledge your own prejudice and you just insist on spewing the same crap again and again.

We've engaged with your crap, engage with what you perceive to be ours, if you refuse to do that why the hell are you even participating in such a forum?

Why do you think the medical establishment and my own personal life experience is "stupid"?


A perfect example of ignorance is when someone tries to make someone believe in your personal views but when they refuses to because they simply don't agree with you, they get disrespected and judged in a negative way. Thats exactly what your doing towards me. By using the word "stupid" was not refer to homosexuals. What's stupid are the "Excuses" some are coming up with to make this Tax law seem legit. Question. What's correct number of people in San Francisco that want to crossover but can't cuz their health insurance doesn't cover sex change operations? How many of them are seeking help or committing suicide because they simply cannot afford it? Source please? If you didn't know already, California is already one of the most high taxed state in the nation. More important things need our tax dollars. Schools, Roads, Bridges, Law in forcemeat, Education. Public money should be spent else where.

"This surgery is not an essential health function, especially when it would be taking money away from those suffering from chronic illnesses like cancer, Aids, and heart disease. We are already stretched too thin as San Francisco is facing a budget deficit and won't be able to afford the costs of this.Taxpayers cannot afford this, as there are unintended costs and unintended consequences unrelated to the actual surgery, such as their longer-term hormone treatment, psychology needs and other longer term health issues, - Thomas Moyer

As I stated before, if anyone wants a sex change operation. Pay for it yourself.

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Honestly, this thread needs to end.

The amount of ignorance in here is absolutely disgusting and makes my blood boil. The fact that there are people here arguing against the DSM just proves once again the amount of ignorance that plagues conservative ideology.
Hey. I just talked with 2 democrats. They too think this SF tax law would be wrong. So much for your "Conservative ideology"

Last edited by Vanilla Ice; Nov 15, 2012 at 05:27 AM.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 05:29 AM   #147
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A perfect example .... etc. etc. etc.
Honestly, this is an odd post given your signature:

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." -Abraham Lincoln
A person who is a transsexual feels imprisoned. The only way the can feel truly free is if their body matches their gender identity. Put another way, do you oppose tax-payer funding for all surgeries that change appearance (e.g., skin grafts for burn victims, cleft lip reconstruction, removal of benign but disfiguring skin tumors, etc)? If you don't, it is probably because you recognize that the life of a person can be limited by their appearance. The same is true of transsexual people.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 05:42 AM   #148
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A perfect example of ignorance is when someone tries to make someone believe in your personal views but when they refuses to because they simply don't agree with you, they get disrespected and judged in a negative way. Thats exactly what your doing towards me. By using the word "stupid" was not refer to homosexuals. What's stupid are the "Excuses" some are coming up with to make this Tax law seem legit. Question. What's correct number of people in San Francisco that want to crossover but can't cuz their health insurance doesn't cover sex change operations? How of them are seeking help or committing suicide because they simply cannot afford it? Source please? If you didn't know already, California is already one of the most high taxed state in the nation. More important things need our tax dollars. Schools, Roads, Bridges, Law in forcemeat, Education. Public money should be spent else where.

"This surgery is not an essential health function, especially when it would be taking money away from those suffering from chronic illnesses like cancer, Aids, and heart disease. We are already stretched too thin as San Francisco is facing a budget deficit and won't be able to afford the costs of this.Taxpayers cannot afford this, as there are unintended costs and unintended consequences unrelated to the actual surgery, such as their longer-term hormone treatment, psychology needs and other longer term health issues,” - Thomas Moyer

As I stated before, if anyone wants a sex change operation. Pay for it yourself.[COLOR="#808080"]
Expecting you to actually engage with my points is disrespecting you? I never said your use of the word stupid was towards homosexuals.

Can you seriously not see the complete absence of reason within your point there? You're citing things that most laypeople can obviously see the case for, Schools, roads, bridges etc and advocating selling out a community that people typically cannot directly empathise with while ignoring the accepted medical doctrine on the issue.

You've asked for some fairly tricky to obtain statistics so I'll do as best I can here:

http://www.livescience.com/11208-hig...er-people.html

41% of us attempt to commit suicide.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12856892

Overwhelming numbers of us report staggering improvements in quality of life, I know I can.

http://www.thomasmoyer.com/about

Any medical credentials? Nope, just a conservative blogger.

Your question also reveals your ignorance, they don't perform these surgeries on regular people, it doesn't cost much at all to take hormones and live as we please, I did it for four years before that surgery. Those who would have this done are already in therapy, already taking hormones, they're already often in need of therapy and they're already a drain on the system, surgery doesn't increase this cost it dramatically reduces it.

Again, I can only give myself as an example but I probably cost the NHS about ~15k in auxillary care, perhaps more, care that I'd have had whether they covered the surgery I had or not. Since, I've not needed anything from them but hormones that are more than covered by the prescription charge I pay.

It not only makes sense for the patient it makes sense fiscally too.

Here in the UK about 500 people a year need this surgery, scaling for population that'd translate to about 60-70/year for SF, though it's fairly likely that initially there would be a backlog.

Are you seriously against all other non-critical healthcare? If so, please don't make us out to be a special case, this is a legitimate medical need and one you obviously don't understand at all, what boggles my mind is how you think you're even qualified to make such statements?
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 05:55 AM   #149
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Just when I thought I couldn't be surprised any more by vast amounts of wilful ignorance, I found this thread. Some of you won't even listen to the articulate and frankly rather generous explanations from those who have actually been there.

This is a medical condition that affects the person on a deep and defining level. It damn well should be paid for!


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Big difference paying for an obese person to become healthy than to pay for a damn sex change because James can't seem to live with a penis so he wants to become Jessica or die trying

If that's the logic... I rather pay for them to be institutionalized
That you would prefer someone to suffer their whole lives and be locked up for something that isn't their fault shows a lack of core empathy that is much more worthy of being institutionalized.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 06:05 AM   #150
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Honestly, this is an odd post given your signature:

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." -Abraham Lincoln
A person who is a transsexual feels imprisoned. The only way the can feel truly free is if their body matches their gender identity. Put another way, do you oppose tax-payer funding for all surgeries that change appearance (e.g., skin grafts for burn victims, cleft lip reconstruction, removal of benign skin tumors, etc)? If you don't, it is probably because you recognize that the life of a person can be limited by their appearance. The same is true of transsexual people.
This issue of discussion has nothing to do with my signature. Read up on Abraham Lincoln's speech and you will see what he was referring to. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/lookingforli...-gates-jr/297/

On the other hand, What freedom are transsexuals loosing? They can still have the surgery. Paying for the procedure themselves doesn't make them slaves. Please, your comparing burn victims and people with tumor operations to sex change operations? Obviously burn victims and tumor patients didn't chose to have such surgeries.
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