Apple and HTC Settle Patent Dispute, Agree to Ten Year License

[Saladinos]

Originally Posted by MacRumors

The license extends to current and future patents held by both parties. The terms of the settlement are confidential.

I bet not for long, though.

What's important here is whether or not this cross-license applies to non standard-essential patents. I'd bet my life savings it doesn't.

It's the non-SEP license that cost Apple against Microsoft all those years back; they're not giving them out to anybody ever again.

SEPs are a different kettle of fish entirely. Cross-licensing SEPs is the norm: everyone needs a license (technically to all essential patents although in practice many declared patents appear to be deemed non-essential). Nobody can implement the full standard without the full set of patents, so they cross-license.

[Psychj0e]

Well, maybe Apple have learned their lesson after being forced to pay *all* of Samsungs legal fees.

[turtlez]

Originally Posted by AppleInTheMud

Samsung ??? No no no no no no... Apple has to learn from this.

They are mostly the bad guys that thinks they own everything.

Apple tried to come to terms with Samsung but Samsung didn't want to know about it.

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Originally Posted by Psychj0e

Well, maybe Apple have learned their lesson after being forced to pay *all* of Samsungs legal fees.

Yeh maybe Apple will stop designing and let the world be at a loss because it can't stand being copied anymore. I hope so much for this to happen

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Originally Posted by juanm

Why don't they let Judge Judy settle it once and for all?

because she would make Samsung cry

[Psychj0e]

Originally Posted by turtlez

Apple tried to come to terms with Samsung but Samsung didn't want to know about it.

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Yeh maybe Apple will stop designing and let the world be at a loss because it can't stand being copied anymore. I hope so much for this to happen

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because she would make Samsung cry

You don't agree that Apple has morphed into a patent troll?
And Apple no longer designing would put the world at a loss? Really? Give your head a shake, friend.

[cdmoore74]

I wonder what happened to Steve Cook's original plan of destroying Android. This guarantees that Android will be around for another 10 years. I don't see this news selling more iPhones. HTC will be a good asset for Android for years to come. Thanks Tim Cook.

[Saladinos]

Originally Posted by jimmyb5374

I think personally its quite sad apple seem to spend most of their innovation in finding how patents they have can be applied to other peoples devices, in other markets , specifically , day in day out !

I don't think any engineers are involved in offensive litigation. They might be needed to testify defensively, though.

How much money do apple spend on this ? as much as they recoup ? as a traded shareholding company are they not liable to disclose this info ?

No, they don't have to disclose the minute details of their financials. They don't even do that for their products.

I would have thought nearly all of the patents apple are trading off should have been covered by some sort of frand agreement , as they seem to be so fond of paying others very little for sharing the patents they don't own !

Apple for the last 24 months or so have disappointed me , with the amount of pure petty minded market destruction they are doing , maybe covering up the huge lack of innovation they have themselves anymore ???? please people , apple fans/lovers or not don't fool yourselves this is about patent protection , its just pure market share / money / race to the top ..

Apple _did_ innovate to create the original iPhone. Others totally ripped it off. As an engineer myself, I find it totally staggering that Samsung have gotten away with so much already! If I worked for Apple and spent a huge amount of time and effort thinking of some of these features, I'd be seriously offended by Samsung's copying. Making things simple is much more difficult than leaving them difficult.

After all of that work, Samsung send their photocopiers to examine the iPhone. They come up with a 132-page document. It covers all minor aspects of the phone from how many taps it takes to start writing a new SMS, to all kinds of little nuances, tweaks and flair. Then they recommend "changes" to the Galaxy to make it pretty much identical to the iPhone. Apple did the hard work, Samsung is stealing it.

Here's an official court-approved translation of the original Korean document, if you want to check it out for yourself: http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/8/322...ce-improvement

Look at that and tell me again that Apple shouldn't hire lawyers to take these guys down. Imagine if that was something you'd created - a novel, or a painting or some other creative work. Then a team sit down with a microscope and examine every little thing that you did and copy it in to their product. That isn't innovation. That isn't design. That isn't engineering. It's reverse-engineering; and just like engineering has a certain pride of creation, reverse engineering for the purpose of copying is shameful and harmful to society.

As for Apple's current pace of 'innovation', sure I'd like to see them do more. Then again, I have higher expectations of Apple like I have for any other company (and I'm sure many others are the same). It doesn't mean they're not entitled to protect their ideas and creations.

Apple will win most of the patent races i am sure, they have enough money ,but when there is no competition left , what chance of innovation or progression is there ?

I sure hope samsung win their lawsuits, wherever they may be left ! Purely to show apple they can't totally manipulate every eventuality in the marketplaces they are arguing

Just my 2 pence, but hey what do i know !!!

Apple want to stop people copying their ideas. They don't win because they have lots of money: Samsung's legal team aren't being restrained by costs; there is no imbalance on legal budgets. Apple are winning because they're correct and the law backs them up.

The Android group has won a few cases, but all relating to FRAND-pledged SEPs (FRAND doesn't mean low rate, it means you signed a contract with ETSI that they can use your patent in a standard but that you'll license it to anyone at the same rate). They haven't been able to enforce an injunction on those "wins", because that would be all kinds of illegal in whatever jurisdiction it's in (EU/US/anywhere else).

The SEP thing is new for this smartphone war. It's coming about because the Android group are desperate to gain leverage to force a license out of Apple. Apple are staying strong in the face of some almighty intimidation and bullying by those guys. They should be applauded; I know most engineers I know are behind Apple on this (or at least very much against Google's position and actions).

[osofast240sx]

Originally Posted by croooow

Well, I do not know if you two have any history (too lazy to really look into it) but I have to agree that I have not been "wowed" by Apple like I was when Steve Jobs showed us that first iPhone in 2007.

I have liked plenty of other products they make, I have purchased 3 of their phones plus a number of other items (like the computer I am using right now) but nothing they have done since the first iPhone has really "wowed" me.

Edit/Addition: I have been very impressed by their products, I feel they are made better than just about everything that competes with them. I am a big fan of Apple: I am just talking about that "wow" that I felt watching the iPhone introduction. What else have they done that really wowed anyone? Look at the audience reaction during the keynotes.

I think the wow factor gone. Apple is just improving incrementally on its wow products. When the iPhone and iPad came out there was nothing like it. Now there are dozen of copies out there.

[Vitrum]

Originally Posted by cdmoore74

I wonder what happened to Steve Cook's original plan of destroying Android. This guarantees that Android will be around for another 10 years. I don't see this news selling more iPhones. HTC will be a good asset for Android for years to come. Thanks Tim Cook.

Hmm regarding that comment about "this guarantees 10 more years of android" lol so you really thinked at some point that android was dying ?

[CoreForce]

So everything is like before, only that the "legal office" industry gained a 100 million profit in the mean time.

[Renzatic]

Originally Posted by Rogifan

The courts should quit with this nonsense. I mean honestly how many people give a *^!# if Apple posts an "apology" to Samsung or the British legal system or whoever on their website? Sure the Fandroids care and it drives clicks on the tech sites but the average person does not care.

You know, I'd love to meet this mythical Average Person everyone keeps talking about on here. Must be a pretty important guy, despite the fact he doesn't care about anything tech, can barely tie his own shoes from the sounds of things, yet all these companies try to pander to him every chance they get.

[RedCroissant]

I know how these other posters feel about the whole "not being wowed" anymore.

I personally haven't seen much from Apple since I bought my iMac(2009), the introduction and release of the: iPhone, iPad, retina MBP, iPad Mini(which I am waiting for), AppleTV...

Perhaps my expectations are lower than others' but I don't see how these improvements and introductions can be viewed as anything but great. I even recently bought an iBook G4 that is also still awesome.

[somethingelsefl]

The only thing I dislike more than "unboxing and shipping" posts on MR is "legal battle" posts.

[osofast240sx]

Originally Posted by jimmyb5374

Apple will win most of the patent races i am sure, they have enough money ,but when there is no competition left , what chance of innovation or progression is there ?

Just my 2 pence, but hey what do i know !!!

What is innovation?
IPhone started with no competition but was innovative, so your logic is flawed. U can't expect any company to reinvent a product every year. But what I do expect is for a company to improve on its products using technology that is matured, not just thrown in for superior specs.

[Radio]

apple being bullies ? Check

[BuckusToothnail]

Originally Posted by KPOM

Unfortunately for Samsung, the EU is investigating them for improperly using their standards-essential LTE patents to try to drive out competition. If they play hardball, the EU is likely to land a crippling blow to Samsung, forcing a harsh settlement upon them (similar to what the US did to Microsoft in the late 1990s) and sending their share price into a spinning nose dive from which they may never recover.[COLOR="#808080"]

Well you obviously made this up about the EU and Samsung, but was referencing the Federal Trade Commission's consideration to sue Google for potentially violating U.S. anti-trust law with the essential patents held by their subsidiary, Motorola, as alleged by Apple.

But since a federal judge in Wisconsin just threw out Apple's lawsuit against Motorola based on exactly these claims, allowing Motorola's lawsuit against Apple to proceed and recover damages from Apple's use of their wireless patents, I guess that FTC suit against Google isn't going to happen.

What is happening, however, is Samsungs' lawsuit against Apple for infringements on their LTE patents.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57...inst-iphone-5/

And no, despite your "fanboi" fantasies, it's not "improperly using their standards-essential LTE patents to try to drive out competitionion" for Samsung to ask that Apple pay them licensing fees for use of their patents, essential or not.

It IS classic patent INFRINGEMENT, however, to NOT compensate the patent holder for the use of their patent, and just ONE case of infringement is grounds for a total sales ban.

Nice try though!

But I guess according to you, it's only patent INFRINGEMENT when APPLE owns the patent, but otherwise, it's patent TROLLING when APPLE is getting sued!

[swy05]

Originally Posted by turtlez

Apple tried to come to terms with Samsung but Samsung didn't want to know about it.

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Yeh maybe Apple will stop designing and let the world be at a loss because it can't stand being copied anymore. I hope so much for this to happen

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because she would make Samsung cry

All I ever see from your posts is your undying hatred of Samsung. Are you a majority shareholder of Apple? Are you the owner?

You hate Samsung so much, here's an idea. Throw away all of your Apple products. They are basically Samsung products with an Apple sticker slapped on them. Until you do so, you can keep on calling yourself a hypocrite.

Apple tried to come to terms but Samsung didn't want to hear it? You know why? Because the terms Apple was requiring was beyond ridiculous and would have no benefit to Samsung at all.

Did Samsung set your house on fire?

[dalbir4444]

Originally Posted by KPOM

The difference is that if the current trajectory continues, we'll have 2 phone manufacturers owning about 95% of the market in 3-5 years. Apple will have a profitable 10% niche, Samsung will have 85%, and a few knockoffs and niche manufacturers will fight over the rest. It will be like Apple v. Microsoft in the 1990s. And we all know how that turned out.

That I certainly wouldn't want. In that sense, I would definitely want another manufacturer to become competitive in the Android market. Asus is already doing quite well in the tablet market. I hope Sony and HTC start marketing their products more because they make very good looking phones.

[FFR]

Originally Posted by BuckusToothnail

Well you obviously made this up about the EU and Samsung, but was referencing the Federal Trade Commission's consideration to sue Google for potentially violating U.S. anti-trust law with the essential patents held by their subsidiary, Motorola, as alleged by Apple.

Actually you are mistaken

"EU regulators investigate Samsung over mobile patents"

More can be found here:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...80U0NU20120131

[KPOM]

Originally Posted by dalbir4444

That I certainly wouldn't want. In that sense, I would definitely want another manufacturer to become competitive in the Android market. Asus is already doing quite well in the tablet market. I hope Sony and HTC start marketing their products more because they make very good looking phones.

That's why I'm also supportive of Windows Phone. That said, in retrospect it would have been better had Nokia switched to Android when they dropped Symbian. It's hard to believe, but 2 years ago they were still the top seller of smartphones. Now they aren't even in the top 10 anymore. Had they switched to Android (or at least not gone "all-in" with Windows Phone before it was ready), they might still be providing some competition.

[selva]

Originally Posted by dammyonline

I think everyone is entitled to an opinion and would rather not be grouped in with your 'we' comment.

Sure every one is entitled to their opinion. However, the question is, why are the same Apple haters like samcraig, et. al. constantly monitoring these boards? I wonder if this is because they are PAID for this perhaps?

[KPOM]

Originally Posted by BuckusToothnail

Well you obviously made this up about the EU and Samsung, but was referencing the Federal Trade Commission's consideration to sue Google for potentially violating U.S. anti-trust law with the essential patents held by their subsidiary, Motorola, as alleged by Apple.

But since a federal judge in Wisconsin just threw out Apple's lawsuit against Motorola based on exactly these claims, allowing Motorola's lawsuit against Apple to proceed and recover damages from Apple's use of their wireless patents, I guess that FTC suit against Google isn't going to happen.

No, the EU is investigating Samsung.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-12-89_en.htm

Brussels, 31 January 2012 - The European Commission has opened a formal investigation to assess whether Samsung Electronics has abusively, and in contravention of a commitment it gave to the European Telecommunications Standards Institute (ETSI), used certain of its standard essential patent rights to distort competition in European mobile device markets, in breach of EU antitrust rules. The opening of proceedings means that the Commission will examine the case as a matter of priority. It does not prejudge the outcome of the investigation.

Nice try, though.

Originally Posted by BuckusToothnail

What is happening, however, is Samsungs' lawsuit against Apple for infringements on their LTE patents.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57...inst-iphone-5/

And no, despite your "fanboi" fantasies, it's not "improperly using their standards-essential LTE patents to try to drive out competitionion" for Samsung to ask that Apple pay them licensing fees for use of their patents, essential or not.

But I guess according to you, it's only patent INFRINGEMENT when APPLE owns the patent, but otherwise, it's patent TROLLING when APPLE is getting sued!

Uh, no. Apple has lost some IP suits, as well, most recently to VirnetX. If another company has IP, then they deserve compensation.


But I guess according to you, it's only patent TROLLING when APPLE owns the patent, but otherwise, it's patent INFRINGEMENT when APPLE is getting sued!

[kdarling]

Originally Posted by FFR

"EU regulators investigate Samsung over mobile patents"

That's out of date news about whether FRAND holders can use injunctions or not. They can:

Since then, the EU commission on FRAND patents has stated, "the seeking of enforcement of injunctions on the basis of SEP is also not, of itself, anti-competitive. In particular, and depending on the circumstances, it may be legitimate for the holder of SEP to seek an injunction against a potential licensee which is not willing to negotiate in good faith on FRAND terms."

Likewise, recently the ITC has ruled that injunctions are useful tools. UK courts have held the same, but have refused injunctions in cases where they think forced negotiations might work instead.

The upshot is that courts and rulemakers around the world have held that FRAND patent holders only give up sole licensing. They don't give up other patent rights, such as the right to ask for injunctions against those who refuse to negotiate in good faith.

[FFR]

Originally Posted by selva

Sure every one is entitled to their opinion. However, the question is, why are the same Apple haters like samcraig, et. al. constantly monitoring these boards? I wonder if this is because they are PAID for this perhaps?

+1
Now we know how samsung's $2.7 billion ad budget gets spent

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Originally Posted by kdarling

That's out of date.
.

Not until the European Union is finished with thier investigation.

[k995]

Originally Posted by Saladinos

Apple _did_ innovate to create the original iPhone. Others totally ripped it off.
As an engineer myself, I find it totally staggering that Samsung have gotten away with so much already!

As an engineer you clearly dont have a clue, the screen the UI most of the hardware it was all been done before or released at he same time.

Apple released the best product in a moving market period.

If I worked for Apple and spent a huge amount of time and effort thinking of some of these features, I'd be seriously offended by Samsung's copying. Making things simple is much more difficult than leaving them difficult.

Yes bounce effects really saved my life .

Look at that and tell me again that Apple shouldn't hire lawyers to take these guys down. Imagine if that was something you'd created - a novel, or a painting or some other creative work. Then a team sit down with a microscope and examine every little thing that you did and copy it in to their product. That isn't innovation. That isn't design. That isn't engineering. It's reverse-engineering; and just like engineering has a certain pride of creation, reverse engineering for the purpose of copying is shameful and harmful to society.

You mean as in tolkin writing fantasy and then everyone else also writing it? Yes tolkien should have sued any fantasy writer after him.

I can show you products simular then iphone hardware/software, with your logic apple could have never released the iphone in the form we know.

YOU like apple and thats clouding your judgment.

[Ingot]

Originally Posted by bedifferent

Ok So my decade+ of using Apple products since grad school and now work is a figment of your imagination?

I own a 12-Core Mac Pro, 2 24" LED LCD's, an iPad, every iPhone incarnation, and am writing on a MacBook Air. I used to WORK for Apple Corp., but I suppose someone who can objectively critique a company they value must be a "troll" (I loathe that term and as a 35 year old man, 36 tomorrow, hate that I have to use such a childish term in response to an immature post).

Blind infatuation will yield to stagnation, however objectively stating "I don't agree with said product or such act" and voting with your dollars will get a company's attention. Take a look at Apple stock, maybe a hiccup, maybe not. Regardless, I hope it wakes them up a bit to innovate more. I'm glad Forstall is gone, and thrilled Browett is as well; that duo would have walked Apple down a dark path (Johnson was/is amazing in retail, shame Apple lost him to Penny's).

(PS if I really hated Apple as you claim, why would I donate annually to a site dedicated to Apple products? I guess I really must hate Apple )

Game, set and match...