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Old Nov 11, 2012, 07:24 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by AlaskaMoose View Post
I see your point

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Again, tell that to all corporations and see how they agree with you.
which again I point back to my comment about why the 99% has a problem with the top 1% greed. The 99% have been for a long getting screw over by the people at the top. This is why. There greed is to the point that they can not afford to go from 40% profit margins to 38.5%.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 08:05 PM   #77
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If Apple cost its profits, then its market value takes a downturn. And if the downturn continues, Apple goes broke.
Apple pays a dividend. A dividend is when they take excess profits and return it back to shareholders. The stock was also doing fine before they payed a dividend (the dividend is a new addition). That kind of flies in the face of decreased profits means leading Apple out of business doesn't it?

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Old Nov 11, 2012, 08:12 PM   #78
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Well, thats it. I never eat Papa Johns unless its vodka induced, but from now On I'll order from someone else.

This is disgusting.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 08:37 PM   #79
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If your company didn't pay for it, your salary would be higher. They take things like the cost of insurance into account when determining your compensation.

With more money in the pot from everyone paying taxes, you wouldn't be taxed a high as $2,700 per person for this. The hospitals etc. wouldn't have to keep raising their prices to account for all of the unpaid bills they have to write off.
Can you guarantee they would give compensate that way?

Boston City Hospital is the Romney care facility. They were $200,000,000 in the red. Please explain that?
Not everyone has a job nor do the pay taxes. That is where they go.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 08:37 PM   #80
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actually it's kind of surprising that a pizza chain like papa john's even has workers doing more than 30 hours in the first place. Having lots of "part-time" workers instead of full time workers has been a long standing way to dodge providing benefits to workers
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 08:41 PM   #81
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I thought that hot foods was not eligible. At least it was when I was on Food stamps for a short time (several years ago). :/

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Old Nov 11, 2012, 08:50 PM   #82
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I see... Some of you have not idea whatsoever about economics. It's laughable, really.

Lets say that you have a pizza joint and sell pizza for a living. Can you imagine how many pizzas you have to sell in order to make a profit? Do you believe that you have an unlimited supply of free ingredients, the electricity is produced by the electrical outlet, the ovens and equipment were given to you by the Government, the water is free since it comes from the tap? Lets say that you buy a gallon of gasoline for your car: how would you like a tax increase of fifteen cents per gallon? It's the same for every business out there. The company can't survive on a loss of profit, and if it can't survive it has to let workers go first, and then go bankrupt.
You know what's laughable? You trying to make the case of poverty if a pizza gets raised 15 cents. Neither the pizza company nor the customer will go broke over 15 cents.

Take a look at the house that Papa John's built. They really look like they are on the verge of going broke don't they?
http://homesoftherich.net/2008/12/th...a-johns-built/


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But you are ignoring that it takes an enormous number of pizzas x fifteen cents for the employer to pay for Obamacare. That's why the company passes the added expense to the customer, fifteen cents at a time. The profits, regardless of what these may be are used by the shareholders and their families. That's how they make a living. You also have to take into account that the customers may not buy as many pizzas as before because now they will be more expensive. They would just turn around and buy pizza from a small joint where it's cheaper. So, it's much easier for a large company to either reduce the workforce, or the number or work hours, and so forth.
And Papa John's makes enormous amounts of pizzas already. The profit of which funded an enormous 40,000 square foot estate compound. You're talking about an industry where people pay a rather large amount of money for a product that does not cost much to make. With a customer base willing to pay extra for extra toppings. Or delivery even. 15 cents will not affect things at all given that equation.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 08:54 PM   #83
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But you are ignoring that it takes an enormous number of pizzas x fifteen cents for the employer to pay for Obamacare. That's why the company passes the added expense to the customer, fifteen cents at a time. The profits, regardless of what these may be are used by the shareholders and their families. That's how they make a living. You also have to take into account that the customers may not buy as many pizzas as before because now they will be more expensive. They would just turn around and buy pizza from a small joint where it's cheaper. So, it's much easier for a large company to either reduce the workforce, or the number or work hours, and so forth.

How does Apple keep labor cost as low as possible? Answer: by making products overseas where it's cheaper.
So what your telling me is that, its more important for shareholders familes to live a good life than it is for the poor to have basic healthcare?
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 09:05 PM   #84
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I just elected my 2013 benefits.
For family coverage, medical, eye, dental, $200,000 additional life for my wife and I, Short term, long term disability....$2443 for the year.
Excellent copays and prescriptions. Company made drugs are free.

If NHS is so inexpensive why should employers be forced to pay for any coverage.

I will take my offerings. $12 dollar a week per person is a benefit I work for and is part of my compensation.
There is absolutely no guarantee the company would fully compensate me if they dropped the benefit. There would be a strong possibility I could lose thousands with obamacare. I am thinking about MY family first, my responsibility to my family's welfare and health. I have worked hard and sought out opportunities that are better for my family than they are for me.

If Obamacare is so wonderful and such a cost savings to everyone, why are the law makers that didn't read the bill exempt?

Off to bed my 15 hour day looms.

Thanks for the insight gents and ladies.

Surely yes or no to a season?

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You know what's laughable? You trying to make the case of poverty if a pizza gets raised 15 cents. Neither the pizza company nor the customer will go broke over 15 cents.

Take a look at the house that Papa John's built. They really look like they are on the verge of going broke don't they?
http://homesoftherich.net/2008/12/th...a-johns-built/




And Papa John's makes enormous amounts of pizzas already. The profit of which funded an enormous 40,000 square foot estate compound. You're talking about an industry where people pay a rather large amount of money for a product that does not cost much to make. With a customer base willing to pay extra for extra toppings. Or delivery even. 15 cents will not affect things at all given that equation.
The papa johns down the street pays $5200 a month for rent!
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 10:44 PM   #85
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So what your telling me is that, its more important for shareholders familes to live a good life than it is for the poor to have basic healthcare?
No. That's you saying that I am saying. If you aren't one of the poor you are referring to, why don't you volunteer to take a fifteen cent per hour pay cut?

Because every person who works and pays taxes, including company shareholders, use his or her profit to buy things he or she wants or needs: to invest, to save, to pay rent, mortgage, whatever... That profit is what remains after taking care of the expenses.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 10:54 PM   #86
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You know what's laughable? You trying to make the case of poverty if a pizza gets raised 15 cents. Neither the pizza company nor the customer will go broke over 15 cents.

Take a look at the house that Papa John's built. They really look like they are on the verge of going broke don't they?
http://homesoftherich.net/2008/12/th...a-johns-built/




And Papa John's makes enormous amounts of pizzas already. The profit of which funded an enormous 40,000 square foot estate compound. You're talking about an industry where people pay a rather large amount of money for a product that does not cost much to make. With a customer base willing to pay extra for extra toppings. Or delivery even. 15 cents will not affect things at all given that equation.
Yes, and every pizza costs money to make. The pizzas aren't just replicating themselves from thin air in the oven, and then jumping into self-replicating/delivery cardboard boxes. Nothing is free.

Also, that big building Papa John's has brings a lot of money to the local economy in the form of property and federal taxes. Just visit your local borough tax assessing office online, and see how much the local companies are paying on property and other taxes. This is public record.

On top of that, every product, ingredient, etc., used and purchased by all companies to produce something is to the benefit of a lot of other companies or people: truck drivers, gas stations (where truck drivers buy fuel), food markets, companies that make cardboard boxes, paper, etc., the local electric company, gas companies, and so on. What keeps the local economies going are those companies (the private sector), for they also provide employment.

By the way, if all that's needed to pay for the employee's insurance is fifteen cents (which is not true, of course), all Papa John's should is to pass the cost to the employee, or just request from every member of Congress who passed Obamacare to use all of their individual profits to pay for it. Riiiight! (sarcasm).
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 10:54 PM   #87
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Welcome to massachusetts
Does Massachusetts have duo cash and food stamps? Here in PA we used to have the duo system. So much cash (what wasn't much) and so much. What I was seeing that they take out the cash via ATM and use it for cigarettes and other needed items. But I guess the state found out and decided to stop the cash part. Why do I know this, because a friend who is on help.

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Old Nov 12, 2012, 02:08 AM   #88
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If Apple cost its profits, then its market value takes a downturn. And if the downturn continues, Apple goes broke.[COLOR="#808080"]
Oh, I get it now. If Apple makes $38 billion in profit instead of $41 billion in profit this year, they will end up going broke. I'm glad you cleared that up.

Just say it: they can more than likely easily afford healthcare without killing their business, they just don't want to. It's not hard.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 03:11 AM   #89
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Why is it so hard to fathom that increased costs to a business is going to result in one of two things? Either less employees or costs passed onto a customer.
Or cutting into their profits. How do you think businesses in Europe even survive, when they're paying much higher taxes to cover health benefits and retirement funds and all that stuff? Because they accept smaller profits -- it's better than no profit at all. What else are they gonna do? "Waaaah! I can't get by on fewer employees and I can't waise pwices! What about my pwecious pwofits!". "OK, fine so go out of business, sit there and sulk for the rest of your life, and die. Or, harness your insatiable greed and act like a ****** man, like the guys who can't wait to move in and take over your customers tomorrow."
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 04:29 AM   #90
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Democrat voters now finding out what it means to have universal health care?

There is a reason that here in the UK we have an additional income tax called national insurance that runs at about 12% - this is in addition to income tax, which ranges from 20% to 50%. We also have 20% VAT on almost every product bought.

Seems like there was a desire for this healthcare, but when it comes down to paying for it people have had other ideas.
Sigh - it is a pity that people in the UK don't appreciate their good fortune.

Life expectancy is higher in the UK than the US. The UK pays less on average per capita on health care than the US. Indeed, the US spends about as much public money on its health care as socialized countries - including the UK, but there are added layers of profiteering and an endless bureaucracy regarding billing and insurance.

So, yes, rational people in the US would like to change a system that is manifestly inefficient, immoral and unsustainable.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 05:56 AM   #91
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Or cutting into their profits. How do you think businesses in Europe even survive, when they're paying much higher taxes to cover health benefits and retirement funds and all that stuff? Because they accept smaller profits -- it's better than no profit at all. What else are they gonna do? "Waaaah! I can't get by on fewer employees and I can't waise pwices! What about my pwecious pwofits!". "OK, fine so go out of business, sit there and sulk for the rest of your life, and die. Or, harness your insatiable greed and act like a ****** man, like the guys who can't wait to move in and take over your customers tomorrow."
So, since when did it become illegal or wrong to make a profit???

This is the part of the leftist ideology that I have the biggest issue with, that somehow making money is a terrible thing, and that people somehow don't "deserve" to make tons of money. People who start up and run a business are taking a huge risk, often times investing all of their money into getting it started and keeping it running, not to mention the endless hours that are required of being a business owner. Why SHOULDN't they make as large a profit as they can ? Once your profit starts dwindling, it really starts becoming questionable as to whether or not it is worth it to keep things running.

I have run a business in the past, and it was alot of work to get it started, keep it running, and attract a large customer base. I was probably making close to a 300% profit, than someone else in the area got the idea to do the same thing I was doing, only supplying products and services that were of much lower quality but he was able to have a much larger business than I had. My profit margin took an almost immediate hit to 100%. At that point staying in business for myself was simply not worth the time and commitment so I dropped out.

Some of you guys really need to re-think your ideologies. Unless it is a charity, people don't run a business and provide services out of some altruistic ideal, they run a business to make money for themselves and their business partners/shareholders. Once the incentive of profit is taken out of the equation, companies WILL layoff workers and/or close.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 06:00 AM   #92
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Indeed, the US spends about as much public money on its health care as socialized countries - including the UK, but there is an added layers of profiteering and an endless bureaucracy regarding billing and insurance.
The US actually spends way more per capita on health care and pharmaceuticals. Not because Americans are in much poorer health than the rest of the world, but because in the US it's been allowed to remain heavily business-driven, with no one stopping the pharmaceutical companies from making the doctors prescribe all sorts of crap that the patients actually don't need. Something which didn't exactly improve the life span of Michael Jackson or Heath Ledger, so I'm not sure it qualifies for "health care".
The same goes for the defense budget -- yeah, the US needs a strong military but there is massive overspending and overproduction of stuff that just ends up sitting there collecting dust. There's a gargantuan nuclear arsenal for defense against a Soviet Union that no longer exists. There are peacekeeping troops stationed in countries that have been at peace for aeons.
Why, because military spending and health care now accounts for so much of the GDP that nobody dares touch it.

In short, the US population has been reduced to the human 'batteries' in The Matrix, with big business representing the robots who suck them bone dry while a powerless government stands idly by, because everyone is hostile to government (=the representatives of the people) but they loooove the narrative of the businessman who "lives the American dream" and "built something with his own two hands" blah blah blah, so when the businessman cries for less regulation much like thieves cry for fewer cops, the people go along with it.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 06:18 AM   #93
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Does Massachusetts have duo cash and food stamps? Here in PA we used to have the duo system. So much cash (what wasn't much) and so much. What I was seeing that they take out the cash via ATM and use it for cigarettes and other needed items. But I guess the state found out and decided to stop the cash part. Why do I know this, because a friend who is on help.

Hugh
I believe we give out WIC, SNAP, CAP, and heat and eat programs
Yes, we have the same problem. the FOX team did an investigation and found ATM withdrawals from Hawaii, strip clubs, casinos, and tattoo palors. They use ATMs at liquor stores so they can purchase whatever.
When the governor was approached about this he made a statement he didn't want to embarrass those in need.
The Speaker of the house wanted reform (he is even a democrat) but the governor said no.

Welfare in Mass is a full time job.

I know there are those that need it and I know for a fact that there are some that need it but are not eligible because they are trying to make ends.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 06:26 AM   #94
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You know it is a shame that we can't have a true universal healthcare program that isn't tied to employment. Then businesses could stop playing games with avoiding full time employees. Maybe people could stop having multiple part time employees and maybe even be able to build a career within one of these organizations.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 06:31 AM   #95
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No way their margins are 40% per pizza. This isn't apple.
Sorry but pizza margins are nearer 70-80%.

I know that in the UK it costs dominos pizza 1.50 ish to make a pizza they'll sell for 14..... hence they're so liberal about 50% off coupons etc.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 06:34 AM   #96
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So, since when did it become illegal or wrong to make a profit???

This is the part of the leftist ideology that I have the biggest issue with, that somehow making money is a terrible thing, and that people somehow don't "deserve" to make tons of money.
It's not a question of 'deserving' or not, it's a question of finding a sustainable governing dynamic for a functioning society where a maximum part of the population enjoys good lives.

What is the extension of everyone acting in pure self-interest? Well gee, let's see. I'd like to run a company with zero employees, make a product that costs nothing to make, and make an infinite amount of money. 100% profit margin. That's the wet dream. But also the road to hell, since it will lead to a concentration of money and power at the top that always, throughout history, has led to widespread discontent, revolutions, coup d'etat and war. Sooner or later, vulture capitalists will suffer the same fate as French royalty once did and be decapitated in town squares in front of cheering crowds.

Human greed is insatiable, we have "MOAR!!!" in our spines, and that's a force which needs counterweights that slam the breaks when you have enough and then some. If that doesn't stop the hunger for MOAR, society will have to extinguish that red Terminator glow in your eyes by removing you from the gene pool and putting you down like Old Yeller.

Countries that found a balance between self-interest and the common good have been the most successful at building peace and prosperity. Countries that allow one part of the population to leave the other behind... those are the ones that have paved roads for people like Mao, Stalin and Hitler.

As for "leftist ideology", I guess everything's relative since I'm considered right-wing where I'm from. The difference between me and the leftists is that they don't think anyone deserves a cent in profits. That's ALSO an ideology of pure self-interest and greed, and every bit as bad as anarcho-capitalism. Both Marx and Rand were lunatics.

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I have run a business in the past, and it was alot of work to get it started, keep it running, and attract a large customer base. I was probably making close to a 300% profit, than someone else in the area got the idea to do the same thing I was doing, only supplying products and services that were of much lower quality but he was able to have a much larger business than I had. My profit margin took an almost immediate hit to 100%. At that point staying in business for myself was simply not worth the time and commitment so I dropped out.
Right, so the market is open for someone who sells quality products with a lower profit margin. That guy will eliminate the other guy who got too greedy for profit and sold subpar products. The same guy who eliminated the first guy who sold quality products but got carried away with the profit margin. So in the end, the winner will be the guy who struck the perfect balance between egotism and altruism. He gets a profit, the customers get quality products, win-win. Thanks for proving my point.

Last edited by Anuba; Nov 12, 2012 at 07:16 AM.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 08:02 AM   #97
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It's not a question of 'deserving' or not, it's a question of finding a sustainable governing dynamic for a functioning society where a maximum part of the population enjoys good lives.

What is the extension of everyone acting in pure self-interest? Well gee, let's see. I'd like to run a company with zero employees, make a product that costs nothing to make, and make an infinite amount of money. 100% profit margin. That's the wet dream. But also the road to hell, since it will lead to a concentration of money and power at the top that always, throughout history, has led to widespread discontent, revolutions, coup d'etat and war. Sooner or later, vulture capitalists will suffer the same fate as French royalty once did and be decapitated in town squares in front of cheering crowds.

Human greed is insatiable, we have "MOAR!!!" in our spines, and that's a force which needs counterweights that slam the breaks when you have enough and then some. If that doesn't stop the hunger for MOAR, society will have to extinguish that red Terminator glow in your eyes by removing you from the gene pool and putting you down like Old Yeller.

Countries that found a balance between self-interest and the common good have been the most successful at building peace and prosperity. Countries that allow one part of the population to leave the other behind... those are the ones that have paved roads for people like Mao, Stalin and Hitler.

As for "leftist ideology", I guess everything's relative since I'm considered right-wing where I'm from. The difference between me and the leftists is that they don't think anyone deserves a cent in profits. That's ALSO an ideology of pure self-interest and greed, and every bit as bad as anarcho-capitalism. Both Marx and Rand were lunatics.


Right, so the market is open for someone who sells quality products with a lower profit margin. That guy will eliminate the other guy who got too greedy for profit and sold subpar products. The same guy who eliminated the first guy who sold quality products but got carried away with the profit margin. So in the end, the winner will be the guy who struck the perfect balance between egotism and altruism. He gets a profit, the customers get quality products, win-win. Thanks for proving my point.
You didn't even read my post. My competition was selling a product that was vastly inferior to what I was supplying. I chose a small operation that put out high quality. He chose a large operation that put out low quality. In the end the consumers lost because they are getting something of much lesser quality.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 08:09 AM   #98
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It's not a question of 'deserving' or not, it's a question of finding a sustainable governing dynamic for a functioning society where a maximum part of the population enjoys good lives.

What is the extension of everyone acting in pure self-interest? Well gee, let's see. I'd like to run a company with zero employees, make a product that costs nothing to make, and make an infinite amount of money. 100% profit margin. That's the wet dream. But also the road to hell, since it will lead to a concentration of money and power at the top that always, throughout history, has led to widespread discontent, revolutions, coup d'etat and war. Sooner or later, vulture capitalists will suffer the same fate as French royalty once did and be decapitated in town squares in front of cheering crowds.
Um, no one would buy your product and so you would go out of business, not get rich.

Clearly the workings of Capitalism escapes you.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 08:42 AM   #99
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Clearly the workings of Capitalism escapes you.
Clearly, bottled water and the Pet Rock flew way over your head.

Another working of capitalism is competition. If a crybaby entrepreneur bawls his little eyes out over having to cut into profits or raise prices to cover Obamacare, it's OK -- another less greedy entrepreneur will move into his place and claim his customer base in a jiffy, and the loser can always resort to flipping burgers or polishing shoes. If Papa John's can't take the heat in the kitchen, they're free to go the way of the dodo and be replaced by the stronger. Adaptation, the secret of winners since 4.5 billion B.C.

If the country with the highest taxes in the world (Denmark) has 4.8% unemployment and the US has 7.8% unemployment, taxes aren't the problem, untethered greed is.

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Old Nov 12, 2012, 09:03 AM   #100
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Clearly, bottled water and the Pet Rock flew way over your head.

Another working of capitalism is competition. If a crybaby entrepreneur bawls his little eyes out over having to cut into profits or raise prices to cover Obamacare, it's OK -- another less greedy entrepreneur will move into his place and claim his customer base in a jiffy, and the loser can always resort to flipping burgers or polishing shoes. If Papa John's can't take the heat in the kitchen, they're free to go the way of the dodo and be replaced by the stronger. Adaptation, the secret of winners since 4.5 billion B.C.

If the country with the highest taxes in the world (Denmark) has 4.8% unemployment and the US has 7.8% unemployment, taxes aren't the problem, untethered greed is.
You disprove your own points with your own post.

Smooth.

Neither the Pet Rock or Bottled Water meet your zero cost, 100% profit, path to total destruction scenario.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make now at all.

The owner of a business decided to reduce his costs in a way that you disagree with. Guess what. 90% of the people who do business there could care less if he supports Obamacare or not.

They like his pizza and will buy it if the price is something they see value in.

It's just pizza after all....
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