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Old Nov 12, 2012, 10:18 AM   #101
Anuba
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The owner of a business decided to reduce his costs in a way that you disagree with. Guess what. 90% of the people who do business there could care less if he supports Obamacare or not.
Right, and the remaining 10% care, and losing their business will cost him more than taking the 15 cent hit per pizza. Derp!

This is a good opportunity to create a consumer website that blacklists all (profitable) businesses that lay off employees in response to Obamacare, so customers know which businesses to avoid. It won't be enough to bleed the bad eggs to death, but enough to give them a well deserved bruise or two.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 10:20 AM   #102
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 10:34 AM   #103
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Sorry but pizza margins are nearer 70-80%.

I know that in the UK it costs dominos pizza 1.50 ish to make a pizza they'll sell for 14..... hence they're so liberal about 50% off coupons etc.
Is that margin taking into account people working for selling the product? Ads? Rentals?

I agree, 15 isn't that much, but when you put it from a bigger perspective, those 15 can represent a lot of money in an economy.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 10:53 AM   #104
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I don't typically buy pizza from chains, but I'll make sure to not buy Pizza from Papa Johns, since Obamacare takes all my money away and now I can't afford to eat there
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 10:59 AM   #105
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Their pizza is crappy anyway. We have localish chains that are much, much better.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 11:31 AM   #106
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One issue that hasn't been discussed is employee turnover.

If Papa Johns cuts hours, stretches its workforce and doesn't provide healthcare, than it's likely they will see an increase in turnover as workers leave to find better jobs.

How much will this increase the cost of your pizza?

Quote:
Why Turnover Matters

... To replace even an entry-level employee still can cost up to 25 percent of his salary. Ignoring employee turnover thus equates to poor resource management, and can translate into serious financial difficulty for the company. Even if turnover was not expensive, there still are interpersonal costs, as remaining workers have to learn to work with another individual and adjust to the new work dynamics.

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/stand...tes-13482.html
That neatly sums up what I believe is the mistake Papa John's is making: poor resource management.

Let's see how it works out for them.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:02 PM   #107
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One issue that hasn't been discussed is employee turnover.

If Papa Johns cuts hours, stretches its workforce and doesn't provide healthcare, than it's likely they will see an increase in turnover as workers leave to find better jobs.
Exactly.

This will all work itself out, everyone will adapt, and I wouldn't worry about initial grumpiness and scare tactics. Like those who crawled out of their bomb shelters on the morning of January 1, 2000, only to discover that the world was still there, or the ones who thought that Obama would give Bill Ayers all the missile launch codes, the Obamacare doomsday prophets will eventually find that they freaked out over nothing.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:17 PM   #108
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One issue that hasn't been discussed is employee turnover.

If Papa Johns cuts hours, stretches its workforce and doesn't provide healthcare, than it's likely they will see an increase in turnover as workers leave to find better jobs.

How much will this increase the cost of your pizza?
It is sad how much companies do not think long term any more. They only care about the next quater so they can cash in their stock option and paid their bottom line. Screw long term health and the cost of retraining all the employees to replace the ones you laid off. Instead of eating maybe 1-2 months of employee pay on not having work for them to do instead you are paying 3+ month losses in training and getting people confortable in the job. Plus the cost of the trainer.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:37 PM   #109
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:50 PM   #110
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It's not only employers asking for lower taxes, but all tax payers. Do you want to pay more taxes? But in relation to taxes, corporate taxes in the US are the second highest in the world. The problem is that our Congress creates the tax laws plus the loopholes corporations and individuals use to their advantage. The loopholes should be closed first. Corporations don't create the tax laws.
I'm not quite following you, but, I can tell you that somebody is already paying for medical care for Darden and Papa John's employees. If it isn't being paid for by the company, then, a lot of it is being paid for by you and me, through taxes and through higher rates at the doctor/hospital, and, for insurance.

So the question for you, and, Papa John's, is how best to provide healthcare for the general public. Because we decided already as a society that we are not going to let people die in the streets. But we never quite decided (until now) how to provision and pay for it, and, a lot of people don't like Obamacare. So, what do they want? What do you want?
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:52 PM   #111
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As long as we continue the insanity of shareholder value coined by that crook Jack Welsh, this won't change.
hence the reason I kind of of think stock option to the higher ups should not be the case any more. It encourages short term things of the value of the stock. Sorry but stock value should not be what you are concerned about. it is a bonus of doing the right thing and running a good business but should not be what you focus on.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:55 PM   #112
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So, since when did it become illegal or wrong to make a profit???
Oh, my god. Will you stop with the hyperbolic bullstuff?

No one, NO ONE, is saying that it is illegal or wrong to make a profit or that those who make a profit should be punished. Just stop with the Fox News-style incitation. The uneducated simplefolk might buy into this and get all up in arms about it, but those with the ability to see through the issues understand the deeper meaning.

Right: Making a decent profit and treating your employees well, paying good wages, and providing healthcare/benefits (since this country as a whole can't seem to do it, because that's socialism).

Wrong: Padding your profit numbers by paying low wages, laying people off for no reason other than to pad your profits, cutting peoples' hours, or removing benefits.

People like you, thewitt, Moose, and a few others are more concerned about shareholders than employees. Many of the rest of us consider the employees more important. A shareholder is rarely more than some person who bought some shares of a company on the secondary market, and sits and sees what happens. They have little to no actual connection to the company itself. They provide no work, no extra capital, nothing really. It's like saying every time someone buys a used Ford, they're helping Ford stay in business. The employee usually has a vested interest in the company, because that's his entire income.

No one is saying you can't make a profit. That's stupid. We're saying to stop crying when something might reduce your profits in some way (while still leaving plenty to grow and be successful), when it helps all the people in your business. You, on the other hand, seem to believe that only the maximum possible profit that can be attained using any means necessary is all that should be strived towards.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm not demonizing success. I'm demonizing being a gigantic douche. I'm sick of hearing guys crying from their dozen-million-dollar mansions about how hard the world is towards them.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 02:02 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by bruinsrme View Post
The papa johns down the street pays $5200 a month for rent!
So? What does that have to do with anything? People complain about healthcare (heaven forbid people should be well!!!!) but none of you would bat an eyelash (or even know) if the landlord wanted to raise the rent that resulted in a $1 increase in pizza. But ask .15 for healthcare, and everyone clutches their pearls and faints. It's ridiculous. And shows a very big misplacement of priorities.

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Originally Posted by AlaskaMoose View Post
Also, that big building Papa John's has brings a lot of money to the local economy in the form of property and federal taxes. Just visit your local borough tax assessing office online, and see how much the local companies are paying on property and other taxes. This is public record.
A healthy person brings a lot of money to the local economy too, a sick person is a drag on that economy. It is in the best interest of everyone, including the Papa John's CEO, to have healthy workers.

Quote:
On top of that, every product, ingredient, etc., used and purchased by all companies to produce something is to the benefit of a lot of other companies or people: truck drivers, gas stations (where truck drivers buy fuel), food markets, companies that make cardboard boxes, paper, etc., the local electric company, gas companies, and so on. What keeps the local economies going are those companies (the private sector), for they also provide employment.
Do you not think that insurance companies, doctors offices and hospitals also provide employment? Do you not think that every single business that you listed functions better with an employee who is healthy vs. one that is sick?

Quote:
By the way, if all that's needed to pay for the employee's insurance is fifteen cents (which is not true, of course), all Papa John's should is to pass the cost to the employee, or just request from every member of Congress who passed Obamacare to use all of their individual profits to pay for it. Riiiight! (sarcasm).
Ah, so you think the man you are sitting here defending is now a liar? Per the Papa John's CEO himself:

"Our best estimate is that the Obamacare will cost 11 to 14 cents per pizza, or 15 to 20 cents per order from a corporate basis," Schnatter said.

http://www.politico.com/politico44/2...es-131331.html

It's so nice to know that you are more of an expert on things then the CEO himself. Maybe you should tell him to step aside since you know more then he does.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 02:05 PM   #114
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Oh, my god. Will you stop with the hyperbolic bullstuff?

No one, NO ONE, is saying that it is illegal or wrong to make a profit or that those who make a profit should be punished.
Maybe no one in this forum... but no one? This shouldn't take too long to dig up... yep, here, see? Didn't have to go far... this year's DNC Convention.

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Old Nov 12, 2012, 02:13 PM   #115
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Maybe no one in this forum... but no one? This shouldn't take too long to dig up... yep, here, see? Didn't have to go far... this year's DNC Convention.
Please remember that this technique has been widely used to tar conservatives and Tea Party members as well.

If you want to rely on this as evidence, then you must accept it as evidence when it comes to your side.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 02:30 PM   #116
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One issue that hasn't been discussed is employee turnover.

If Papa Johns cuts hours, stretches its workforce and doesn't provide healthcare, than it's likely they will see an increase in turnover as workers leave to find better jobs.
Better jobs where? The job market is horrible and we are about to enter another Xmas shopping season where there will be 70-100 applications for each seasonal job at the local mall. Jobs that used to go to high school and college kids wanting to earn a little extra cash around the holidays are now going to adults with families to support and a mountain of back bills to pay.

When the job market gets better I agree that Papa Johns might face higher instances of turnover but it's not going to happen in the near future, IMO.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 02:51 PM   #117
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Maybe no one in this forum... but no one? This shouldn't take too long to dig up... yep, here, see? Didn't have to go far... this year's DNC Convention.
Okay, yes...I should have added the disclaimer "on this forum". Obviously there are crazy people out there who think profits should lead to jail, just as there are those out there who think workers shouldn't even be paid.

I do like how the video title seems to claim that it's some official Democrat platform that profits should be banned.


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When the job market gets better I agree that Papa Johns might face higher instances of turnover but it's not going to happen in the near future, IMO.
And I think this is part of the reason they can get away with these sorts of actions. They know their employees won't bail because they have few other choices. So why not cut everything they can?
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 03:00 PM   #118
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Is that margin taking into account people working for selling the product? Ads? Rentals?

I agree, 15 isn't that much, but when you put it from a bigger perspective, those 15 can represent a lot of money in an economy.
If they were making something like $0.15 on a typical sale above $10, that would make them extremely susceptible to subtle economic changes. I kind of wonder how many their average store turns out annually and how their gross profits look at a store level. Their strategy is quite smart. They offer things like jalapenos and red chili flake packets with the pizza. This way people add enough spice to it that they no longer perceive the lack of inherent base flavors.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 03:02 PM   #119
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He was going to this either way. This is just shifting the blame. Don't fall for it.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 03:16 PM   #120
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Just wanted to point out 80% of Papa Johns stores are an independently owned and operated franchise.
That being said most of these mom and pop stores have Less then 50 employees to begin with and the vast majority of the employes work 35 hours or less and are already considered part time. IE no benefits.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/...1#.UKFXC3y9KSN

So 15 cents, buy or not buy isn't going to make much of a difference either way.

And that's sad because the little guys delivering takeout need their jobs and could use some type of coverage.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 03:42 PM   #121
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You didn't even read my post. My competition was selling a product that was vastly inferior to what I was supplying. I chose a small operation that put out high quality. He chose a large operation that put out low quality. In the end the consumers lost because they are getting something of much lesser quality.
This seems orthogonal. The second business choose a lower profit margin for higher volume and you couldn't/didn't want to convince customers that your quality difference had value, something that many companies have successfully done even in the face of competing businesses.

Obviously, profit margin is important, but your example is almost impossible to use beyond your own experience.

It's instructive to see that Dominos, which ran to the bottom on costs, is now pushing for higher margin items, while places like Little Caesar's have tried to be as cheap as possible. That both companies exist along with artisan pizza places tells us something about the complexity of the market, even in something like pizza.

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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
...
The owner of a business decided to reduce his costs in a way that you disagree with. Guess what. 90% of the people who do business there could care less if he supports Obamacare or not.
Sure, but giving up 10 percent of your customers could be a bigger loss than simply paying the 15 cents per pizza.

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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
...
That neatly sums up what I believe is the mistake Papa John's is making: poor resource management.

Let's see how it works out for them.
This is the best critique. Many businesses treat employees like tabs to fit into slots, but a pizza business needs someone who can follow directions, pay attention to orders (and make sure they're correct), and drive without taking too much time. The failure of this chain of workers can mean decreased customer satisfaction and lost sales.

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Originally Posted by LethalWolfe View Post
Better jobs where? The job market is horrible and we are about to enter another Xmas shopping season where there will be 70-100 applications for each seasonal job at the local mall. Jobs that used to go to high school and college kids wanting to earn a little extra cash around the holidays are now going to adults with families to support and a mountain of back bills to pay.

When the job market gets better I agree that Papa Johns might face higher instances of turnover but it's not going to happen in the near future, IMO.
One thing to keep in mind is that people with low-wages and no benefits tend to be less productive employees. I'm trying to find the study, but one suggested that employee theft, sick-calls, and turnover could be addressed with benefits and that in some cases, businesses would actually make more money. However, because there's very little interest in measuring this, primarily because so many businesses have run to low-wage, part-time workers, that businesses might not understand what all these temporary, part-time employees may actually be costing.

My own experience has been that, even in retail, the very worst employees are temporary seasonal hires, who can fail even the "we just need a warm body" test because they care so little about the job.

My best people were careerists with benefits and full-time employement.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 04:32 PM   #122
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One thing to keep in mind is that people with low-wages and no benefits tend to be less productive employees. I'm trying to find the study, but one suggested that employee theft, sick-calls, and turnover could be addressed with benefits and that in some cases, businesses would actually make more money. However, because there's very little interest in measuring this, primarily because so many businesses have run to low-wage, part-time workers, that businesses might not understand what all these temporary, part-time employees may actually be costing.

My own experience has been that, even in retail, the very worst employees are temporary seasonal hires, who can fail even the "we just need a warm body" test because they care so little about the job.

My best people were careerists with benefits and full-time employement.
I certainly agree with that. Recently I posted an article talking about Costoc and co-founder Jim Sinegal's approach that shows you can build a multibillion dollar company and not fleece your employees in the process. Costco has some of the best compensation and lowest turnover in retail and they are doing something like $70 billion annually in business.

One of my main criticism of the contemporary corporate mindset in America is the myopic focus on short term growth at the possible expense of long term viability. Pennywise and pound foolish on a global scale. Something I overheard recently with regards to employee retention:

"What if I SPEND all this time and money to train them and then they LEAVE?”

“What if you DON’T TRAIN them and they STAY?”
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 05:37 PM   #123
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The guys a jerk just boycott papa johns.

I don't need to be concerned because we have a lot of pizza places/delivery options in Portland that are much better.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 05:54 PM   #124
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http://video.foxnews.com/v/177757120...ns-more-dough/

Seeing such biased "reporting" is shocking to a foreign observer, honestly... it's halfway between news and North Korean propaganda.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 06:14 PM   #125
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The guys a jerk just boycott papa johns.

I don't need to be concerned because we have a lot of pizza places/delivery options in Portland that are much better.
the problem is that Papa Johns and many other places have been doing this for years. Ensuring that their employees work as much as they can without them legally having to provide benefits. Since the healthcare limits are lower than the current part time limits, workers hours will be reduced so companies can continue to avoid providing them health benefits while getting the maximum hours out of them that they can. Walmart, Papa Johns, Pizza Hut, McDonalds, Burger King, Applebee's, Red Lobster, Olive Garden, Longhorn, Domino's pizza, etc, etc.

This has been going on for a while, if people care now, that is good, but its interesting that people didn't seem to care before now.
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