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Old Nov 12, 2012, 08:35 PM   #1
Kendo
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The higher PPI is pointless on the mini since websites are scaled.

I thought the mini would have a much better looking display due to the higher PPI but the problem is that even though the PPI is higher, websites are still proportionately the same.

For example, if you view MacRumors and view the logo on the top left corner, the fuzziness of the MacRumors font will be the same fuzziness level on an iPad mini since it is scaled exactly the same. Meaning if the letter "M" occupies 150 pixels on the iPad 2, it will still occupy 150 pixels on an iPad mini. (BTW, I just threw out an arbitrary number for the letter M from MacRumors).

This doesn't change the fact that the mini is an amazing device, but the higher PPI shouldn't trick someone into thinking content will look sharper. Since everything is scaled.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 08:55 PM   #2
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At the end of the day, if you owned a 7inch or 7.9 tablets. U will have to zoom in on website no matter what.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 09:01 PM   #3
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You don't understand. Read up on pixel doubling, and retina displays.

Here, let me get you started.
http://www.knowyourmobile.com/featur...s_it_work.html
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 09:31 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menel View Post
You don't understand. Read up on pixel doubling, and retina displays.


Here, let me get you started.
http://www.knowyourmobile.com/featur...s_it_work.html
This thread wasn't about pixel doubling or retina displays.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 12:39 AM   #5
Che Castro
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With all the complaining going on

Ipad mini 2 must have a retina
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 01:07 AM   #6
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I agree I saw it, my assumption initially was wrong. The slight PPI increase doesn't make a damn difference. Only retina can fix this.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 01:49 AM   #7
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retina can fix this.
Retina won't fix it completely. Text will finally be legible on busy websites in portrait mode, but you will still have the issue of the screen element sizing.

What needs to happen is retina + a custom version of iOS for the smaller 7.9" screen rather than cramming in the exact same OS from the 9.7" version. I'd argue that the later is far more important than retina.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 03:06 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syd430 View Post
Retina won't fix it completely. Text will finally be legible on busy websites in portrait mode, but you will still have the issue of the screen element sizing.

What needs to happen is retina + a custom version of iOS for the smaller 7.9" screen rather than cramming in the exact same OS from the 9.7" version. I'd argue that the later is far more important than retina.
Makes sense.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 03:22 AM   #9
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The OP is partially correct.

The higher PPI doesn't make the difference between the mini and the iPad 2, because like you say, everything scales 1 for 1 between the two.

The size of the pixels makes a difference though.

The pixels on the mini are smaller than the iPad 2, making it harder to see individual pixels, which in turn makes the screen (A bit) sharper.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 03:39 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syd430 View Post
Retina won't fix it completely. Text will finally be legible on busy websites in portrait mode, but you will still have the issue of the screen element sizing.

What needs to happen is retina + a custom version of iOS for the smaller 7.9" screen rather than cramming in the exact same OS from the 9.7" version. I'd argue that the later is far more important than retina.
I couldn't disagree more with this - the main selling point of the mini is it uses the same layouts, etc as the 9.7": It's an iPad, but smaller. If it used a different version of iOS with different layouts, it would no longer be an iPad, but a "third device"
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 04:40 AM   #11
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I couldn't disagree more with this - the main selling point of the mini is it uses the same layouts, etc as the 9.7": It's an iPad, but smaller. If it used a different version of iOS with different layouts, it would no longer be an iPad, but a "third device"
Exactly. So then maybe it shouldn't of been made in the first place.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 06:15 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Che Castro View Post
With all the complaining going on

Ipad mini 2 must have a retina
Maybe. Who knows what apple will do. After all, the iPad didn't get retina until the 3rd generation.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 06:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Che Castro View Post
With all the complaining going on

Ipad mini 2 must have a retina
I wouldn't take the complaining at Macrumors as indicative of the market...
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 06:51 AM   #14
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Maybe. Who knows what apple will do. After all, the iPad didn't get retina until the 3rd generation.
'Retina' displays didn't exist when the iPad was launched.

iPad 2 was the only iPad that was really 'missing' it. And it didn't have the horsepower, and it wouldn't have fit in the price bracket.

iPad Mini is similar. Retina would be cost prohibitive, doesn't have the GPU horsepower, doesn't have the battery capacity to support both the increased backlight needs and the increased GPU power.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 06:52 AM   #15
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I wouldn't take the complaining at Macrumors as indicative of the market...
Not sure why so many people here think short-term sales are "indicative of the market", especially for an iDevice.

At this stage, Apple could of literally put out an iPad mini with a single-core A4, 256mb of ram, and 30% more weight and people would still be on this forum banging on about how great it is.

Apple has huge momentum, and this thing was going to sell out regardless.

The problem is, how does the mini fit in to the overall product eco-system? my opinion is that it was just Tim's little cash grab for the holiday season, with little thought of how this product fits into the range for the long term.

Lets see if the 3rd or 4th gen ipad mini will still be selling out in a few years time.

My feeling is that people will look back at the Mini in a few years and see it as one of many major missteps where Apple lost track of it's long term ambitions in favour of a quick buck for the holiday season.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 07:06 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syd430 View Post
Retina won't fix it completely. Text will finally be legible on busy websites in portrait mode, but you will still have the issue of the screen element sizing.
I've always thought that if iOS and app devs had the restrictions web designers have we'd have responsive apps, the pain of different screen sizes and resolutions would go away.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 07:09 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZBoater View Post
I wouldn't take the complaining at Macrumors as indicative of the market...
Not unless you want to consider Apple-haters to be the core of Apple's market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by syd430 View Post
My feeling is that people will look back at the Mini in a few years and see it as one of many major missteps where Apple lost track of it's long term ambitions in favour of a quick buck for the holiday season.
All these doomsayers. Oi. What long term ambitions would those be? I don't agree with your assessment.

For one reason: I love my mini, it has nothing to do with Apple's momentum, I've been in the market for a 7" device for awhile now (because my other 7" device, my Kindle which I love, doesn't display PDFs well). Apple hasn't made a misstep with the mini, they've actually done a great job.

Last edited by WilliamLondon; Nov 13, 2012 at 07:14 AM.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 07:19 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syd430 View Post
Not sure why so many people here think short-term sales are "indicative of the market", especially for an iDevice.

At this stage, Apple could of literally put out an iPad mini with a single-core A4, 256mb of ram, and 30% more weight and people would still be on this forum banging on about how great it is.

Apple has huge momentum, and this thing was going to sell out regardless.

The problem is, how does the mini fit in to the overall product eco-system? my opinion is that it was just Tim's little cash grab for the holiday season, with little thought of how this product fits into the range for the long term.

Lets see if the 3rd or 4th gen ipad mini will still be selling out in a few years time.

My feeling is that people will look back at the Mini in a few years and see it as one of many major missteps where Apple lost track of it's long term ambitions in favour of a quick buck for the holiday season.
As Dalton from the movie Roadhouse said..."Opinions vary."

So while you think the interest in the mini is short term and that it's popularity will decline, I beg to differ.

I am the proud owner of the first gen iPad. I didn't upgrade after the 2nd, 3rd or 4th gen...but I DID decide to upgrade to the mini. Why? I held one. It is the PERFECT size for me. Everything the iPad is, but in a smaller more portable form factor. I love it. Can't wait till my LTE version arrives in the mail.

I will use it even more than my first gen iPad, and I use that ALL the time.

About the lack of retina display? My question to you is, have you actually gone into an apple store and compared the mini and a retina iPad side by side? I would argue that because of the minis smaller screen....the difference to the naked eye is barely noticeable. Seriously.

Will the ipad mini eventually get a retina display? Most likely. Will I eventually upgrade when it does? Yes.

But the bottom line is that I LOVE the mini's size. It's PERFECT. Fits in my coat pocket or back jeans pocket. I don't need to hold it or carry it in a backpack like I do with my first gen iPad. Yet it's screen is sooooo much more enjoyable to surf the web on than an iPhone or iPod touch in my opinion.

In fact, I am going to transfer my unlimited AT&T data plan from my first gen iPad to my cellular iPad mini when it arrives and use it as a smartphone. I already use my first gen iPad to make free VoIP calls and texts...but the mini will be so much more convenient. It's like a big smartphone. Heck...it's not much bigger than some of the smartphones out there today.

So...I think you are very wrong predicting the iPad minis demise. I think it will become even more popular than the regular iPads in the future.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 07:24 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syd430 View Post
Not sure why so many people here think short-term sales are "indicative of the market", especially for an iDevice.

At this stage, Apple could of literally put out an iPad mini with a single-core A4, 256mb of ram, and 30% more weight and people would still be on this forum banging on about how great it is.

Apple has huge momentum, and this thing was going to sell out regardless.

The problem is, how does the mini fit in to the overall product eco-system? my opinion is that it was just Tim's little cash grab for the holiday season, with little thought of how this product fits into the range for the long term.

Lets see if the 3rd or 4th gen ipad mini will still be selling out in a few years time.

My feeling is that people will look back at the Mini in a few years and see it as one of many major missteps where Apple lost track of it's long term ambitions in favour of a quick buck for the holiday season.
I respectfully disagree. The mini does indeed fill a gap. Even the dear leader Steve Jobs was finally convinced of the argument for a smaller tablet. It allows the iOS ecosystem to be pushed out to a wider market and I believe the caveats were outweighed by the benefits of a more affordable, smaller, lighter, iPad that doesn't need the extra horsepower for "power users." Just because it doesn't fit your paradigm doesn't mean it's a misstep. In fact I believe it to be one of the smarter moves as it allows more people to buy into the apple ecosystem and perhaps these people will now buy macs or bigger iPads down the line. Again, that's just my opinion and take it for what it's worth.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 07:33 AM   #20
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All these doomsayers.
There is virtually no-one else on this forum saying what I am saying. I am the only one as far as I can tell.

You're mistakenly lumping me in with all the people that don't like the mini in it's current form, but would gladly take one with retina.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamLondon View Post
I don't agree with your assessment.
Congradulations, you have the same assessment of 99% of everyone else. Surely the herd is always right in predicting future outcomes.

Maybe you should try your luck at opening hedge fund and make some macro bets on the economy, your strategy can be based on walking around the streets and taking a consensus of where everyone thinks the economy is heading of the next 24 months. Or better yet, even taking a consensus of the 100 top market analysts. Why, you'd be rich! The herd is never wrong right?

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What long term ambitions would those be?
As my post above, I don't feel as though the Mini has any long term viability in Apple's line up. Apple can't be Google or Amazon, yet it's now trying to imitate them.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 07:47 AM   #21
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In fact, I am going to transfer my unlimited AT&T data plan from my first gen iPad to my cellular iPad mini when it arrives and use it as a smartphone.
This is what I mean when I say that the Mini doesn't fit in Apple's current line up.

I've said this again and again in my previous posts - In a world where 100 gram (0.2 lbs) smart phones didn't exist, the mini would make a lot more sense.

How many people have a tablet or mini and don't have a smart phone?

People keep going on about the mini's weight. Yes it's very light, I understand.

Your iPhone 5 however weigh's 1/3 the weight of the mini. There's huge convergence between these two products, and I feel that over the long-run people are going to realise this and not bother having both a smart-phone and and a mini.

A full 10" tablet and a smart phone does make sense though, because the screen is big enough to view extremely busy web pages without having to constantly pan in, plus a host of other advantages a 10" form factor offers. In that regard, the Mini is a lot closer to the iPhone than it is to the iPad.

It's amazing that people wouldn't buy a 7" macbook air (just look at how the miniature sony P-series is doing) yet they think that 7" is just a smaller tablet, despite that it's been accepted for years that around 11" is the smallest that a laptop should be without seriously degrading the experience.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 07:52 AM   #22
WilliamLondon
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Originally Posted by syd430 View Post
There is virtually no-one else on this forum saying what I am saying. I am the only one as far as I can tell.

You're mistakenly lumping me in with all the people that don't like the mini in it's current form, but would gladly take one with retina.

Congradulations, you have the same assessment of 99% of everyone else. Surely the herd is always right in predicting future outcomes.

Maybe you should try your luck at opening hedge fund and make some macro bets on the economy, your strategy can be based on walking around the streets and taking a consensus of where everyone thinks the economy is heading of the next 24 months. Or better yet, even taking a consensus of the 100 top market analysts. Why, you'd be rich! The herd is never wrong right?

As my post above, I don't feel as though the Mini has any long term viability in Apple's line up. Apple can't be Google or Amazon, yet it's now trying to imitate them.
Actually a few people are saying what you're saying (hence, my comment regarding all the doomsayers), and some of them too are offensive in the defence of their positions. As for lumping you in, I never assumed anything you state, I was merely replying to your assertion that you think this is a mistake for Apple and in the future we'll look back and think, "yep, that's where Apple made a huge misstep."

I simply think you're wrong, and the reason is as I've stated, I love the mini, and I'll gladly upgrade to a new version, and one after that maybe (if functionality warrants). I know I'm not alone, so it's safe to assume that there is not only current demand for this product, there is future demand, which nullifies your argument that there isn't a long term position in the iPad family and this was a cash grab only with no forethought on Apple's part as to how this will work in their product lineup in the future.

Beyond that, I don't care whether you like the mini today or tomorrow, it's irrelevant.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 07:57 AM   #23
Phil A.
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Originally Posted by syd430 View Post
This is what I mean when I say that the Mini doesn't fit in Apple's current line up.

I've said this again and again in my previous posts - In a world where 100 gram (0.2 lbs) smart phones didn't exist, the mini would make a lot more sense.

How many people have a tablet or mini and don't have a smart phone?

People keep going on about the mini's weight. Yes it's very light, I understand.

Your iPhone 5 however weigh's 1/3 the weight of the mini. There's huge convergence between these two products, and I feel that over the long-run people are going to realise this and not bother having both a smart-phone and and a mini.

A full 10" tablet and a smart phone does make sense though, because the screen is big enough to view extremely busy web pages without having to constantly pan in, plus a host of other advantages a 10" form factor offers. In that regard, the Mini is a lot closer to the iPhone than it is to the iPad.

It's amazing that people wouldn't buy a 7" macbook air (just look at how the miniature sony P-series is doing) yet they think that 7" is just a smaller tablet, despite that it's been accepted for years that around 11" is the smallest that a laptop should be without seriously degrading the experience.
I can only speak from personal experience but I absolutely think the mini is the perfect size for a tablet: It's portable enough to carry everywhere and big enough to actually use it for productive work. It certainly isn't closer to the iPhone than the iPad - I have had mine since launch day and have yet to find anything I could do on my old iPad that I can't do just as easily on my Mini.

We also got on for my 14 year old daughter - before that, she had an iPad 2 that she hardly ever used (and I mean hardly ever - she never carried it around and hardly ever used it in the house). Since she got her mini, it goes to school with her every day and it's never out of her hands.

The mini might not suit everyone, but I absolutely believe there is a strong market for it
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 08:14 AM   #24
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[QUOTE=MacDarcy;16286425]

About the lack of retina display? My question to you is, have you actually gone into an apple store and compared the mini and a retina iPad side by side? I would argue that because of the minis smaller screen....the difference to the naked eye is barely noticeable.

I've owned every iPad so far minus the 4. I have my 3 right beside my white mini right now. And the screen resolution IS extremely noticeable. Spend time with a retina display and you will retract your statement.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 08:46 AM   #25
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I'd buy a mini. if it was retina. Hurry up Apple!
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