Register FAQ / Rules Forum Spy Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Nov 17, 2012, 03:18 PM   #126
SomeDudeAsking
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Why not just fire all the employees that are part of the unions who don't sign on? There are lots of other people who will take their unskilled jobs.
SomeDudeAsking is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 03:21 PM   #127
leenak
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaMoose View Post
Yes, it's OK if it's you making money and then giving it away instead of the Government taking it away from you.

There is not such thing as a real living wage. Every person should develop a budget in order to survive. If you are now rewarded with more cash from your boss, you can either invest the profit, or spend it (increase your budget's expenses). A person working on minimum wage that creates and adheres to a budget will more than likely do a lot better financially than one who has no budget and spends more than what he makes (like CA, and our US Government-other examples).

Read the book series, "The Millionaire Mind."
Even with a budget, there are many, many people barely scraping by these days. I live in a more expensive area but in this area we still have lower paid workers. It is much different from living in a big city vs small, rural area. You tend to do with a lot less in expensive areas.

I won't say that people don't overspend. I also believe that if someone is wealthy, they have most likely benefited by some part of those that are overworked and underpaid. I don't see a problem with seeking a better balance for the good of society.

Last edited by leenak; Nov 17, 2012 at 03:30 PM.
leenak is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 03:22 PM   #128
Rodimus Prime
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
No the same can't be said for the higher ups.

And it's not whether or not they should trust them, it's a matter of practicality.

No job vs job.

I choose job.
no it can be said about them. The company is being liquidated. That means no job for them and they lose all their money. Plus it will take longer to find work of same pay.

You logic is part of the the problem. It lets the elite kick around the rest of us by saying well a job is better than no job and cut the pay based on that argument.

Union form and stay together BECAUSE management treats the workers poorly and does not give them their fair share.

It goes back to at some point you draw a line in the sand.
Rodimus Prime is offline   4 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 03:25 PM   #129
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaMoose View Post
But the attitude of the late generations of Americans is to take from others (the rich) instead of working hard and becoming rich themselves. We have turned into a nation of takers.
What were we when the upper tax bracket was ~90% (1950s), ~70%(1960-1980), ~50% (1980s)?

How can you claim we've become a nation of takers from the rich of late when we took more (much more) from the rich in the past?
citizenzen is offline   6 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 03:28 PM   #130
eric/
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio, United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
no it can be said about them. The company is being liquidated. That means no job for them and they lose all their money. Plus it will take longer to find work of same pay.
Maybe, but they're better off because they were paid more in the first place, and it's a lot easier for a management member to find work than the average laborer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
You logic is part of the the problem. It lets the elite kick around the rest of us by saying well a job is better than no job and cut the pay based on that argument.
I'm not saying let them kick you around, but in a company that's already failing, the workers don't have leverage. They gain nothing by letting the company fail. They only could have gained by keeping it up slightly longer in order to draw more pay.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
Union form and stay together BECAUSE management treats the workers poorly and does not give them their fair share.
Not always. My father and mother who work for honda are non-union and are treated very well, for example.

Fair share is a new buzzword apparently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
It goes back to at some point you draw a line in the sand.
Ok well now you don't have a job. That worked well. The company was already failing, so instead of drawing a paycheck for longer, you just don't have it now.

some money > 0 money
eric/ is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 03:29 PM   #131
SomeDudeAsking
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
no it can be said about them. The company is being liquidated. That means no job for them and they lose all their money. Plus it will take longer to find work of same pay.

You logic is part of the the problem. It lets the elite kick around the rest of us by saying well a job is better than no job and cut the pay based on that argument.

Union form and stay together BECAUSE management treats the workers poorly and does not give them their fair share.

It goes back to at some point you draw a line in the sand.
Rather, in this situation, the unskilled worked unionize because they are overpaid and caused the company financial troubles.
SomeDudeAsking is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 04:24 PM   #132
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
Rather, in this situation, the unskilled worked unionize because they are overpaid and caused the company financial troubles.
Do you consider bakers "unskilled"?

Edit: a very interesting article on the matter from the New York Times can be found here ...

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/11/...-liquidate/?hp

It's pretty hard to read that article and walk away thinking this is all the fault of unions.

Last edited by citizenzen; Nov 17, 2012 at 04:32 PM.
citizenzen is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 04:31 PM   #133
SomeDudeAsking
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
What do you consider "unskilled"?
Putting boxes on the machines that do all the baking and packaging.
SomeDudeAsking is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 04:33 PM   #134
zioxide
macrumors 603
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
Rather, in this situation, the unskilled worked unionize because they are overpaid and caused the company financial troubles.
What? This is just false. **** management over the last 10 years is why they are bankrupt... for like the 4th time. It's not the fault of the guy wrapping up the twinkies.
zioxide is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 04:33 PM   #135
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
Putting boxes on the machines that do all the baking and packaging.
Please read the New York Times article I linked to below and let me know if you have any thoughts on it.
citizenzen is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 04:37 PM   #136
robanga
macrumors 68000
 
robanga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oregon
Quote:
Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
What? This is just false. **** management over the last 10 years is why they are bankrupt... for like the 4th time. It's not the fault of the guy wrapping up the twinkies.
Exactly

So many are at fault that will be hurt the least in these situations. How about better products, better marketing more invested in sales, R&D, risk taking for the benefit of the long term health of the enterprise?
__________________
Soli Deo gloria
robanga is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 05:16 PM   #137
SomeDudeAsking
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Do you consider bakers "unskilled"?

Edit: a very interesting article on the matter from the New York Times can be found here ...

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/11/...-liquidate/?hp

It's pretty hard to read that article and walk away thinking this is all the fault of unions.
Yes, the bakers at Hostess are unskilled. The machines do most of the specialized work. The workers there just pour in the ingredients, hit start, and move the boxes.

And that article wasn't hard to read.
SomeDudeAsking is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 05:18 PM   #138
Rodimus Prime
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
Rather, in this situation, the unskilled worked unionize because they are overpaid and caused the company financial troubles.
argument does not hold water when the the last time they were in trouble they got the union to take a pretty big pay cut and then turn around and give the higher up at a company massive raise and bonuses that more than likely wipe out most of the cost savings.

So please try again.
Rodimus Prime is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 05:27 PM   #139
SomeDudeAsking
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
argument does not hold water when the the last time they were in trouble they got the union to take a pretty big pay cut and then turn around and give the higher up at a company massive raise and bonuses that more than likely wipe out most of the cost savings.

So please try again.
You have like what 5 people in the hostness management? And they have to take care of all these financial loses caused by overpaid workers they can't easily get rid of? They deserve what they get paid because they do the more difficult work that actually holds the company together. And then you have like 18000 union members who would attack you. Hell yeah, I would want to get paid really well so I could move out of there.
SomeDudeAsking is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 05:29 PM   #140
eric/
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio, United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
massive raise and bonuses that more than likely wipe out most of the cost savings.
Proof?
eric/ is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 05:30 PM   #141
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
And that article wasn't hard to read.
Good. I didn't find it hard to read either.

But then, English is my first (and only) language.

As for unskilled labor ...

Quote:
Definition of 'Unskilled Labor'
A segment of the work force associated with a low skill level or a limited economic value for the work performed (human capital). Unskilled labor is generally characterized by low education levels and small wages. Work that requires no specific education or experience is often available to workers who fall into the unskilled labor force.

Investopedia explains 'Unskilled Labor'
Unskilled labor provides a significant part of the overall labor market, performing daily production tasks that do not depend on technical abilities or skills. Menial or repetitive tasks are typical unskilled labor positions. Jobs that can be fully learned in less than 30 days often fall into the unskilled labor category.


http://www.investopedia.com/terms/u/...#axzz2CWdQNH2M
I would love to hear from someone experienced in large scale baking operations to weigh in on whether their job was skilled or unskilled.

Do you have any direct experience yourself?

I personally wouldn't know what the job entailed.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
Proof?
Did you check out the article I linked to?

I've heard it isn't hard to read.
citizenzen is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 05:32 PM   #142
zioxide
macrumors 603
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
You have like what 5 people in the hostness management? And they have to take care of all these financial loses caused by overpaid workers they can't easily get rid of? They deserve what they get paid because they do the more difficult work that actually holds the company together. And then you have like 18000 union members who would attack you. Hell yeah, I would want to get paid really well so I could move out of there.
Try doing a little research or gathering even a tiny bit of factual information before you spout out a bunch of bull ****.

And how does a CEO deserve a 300% raise when his company has been in bankruptcy at least 3 times in the past few years? You run a company that poorly you deserve a pay cut not your salary being tripled while the minions take cuts to pay for your raise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
Proof?
Do you guys not even read the thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eawmp1 View Post
Union workers had already accepted a new contract with significant concessions back in January, at the same time that the CEO and other executive level personnel gave themselves millions of dollars in raises (most over 75%, the CEO went from 750,000 dollars per year to 2.55 million dollars per year). The brand was tanking anyway and would have been liquidated either way, but the rank and file gave and the executuves took.

"BCTGM members are well aware that as the company was preparing to file for bankruptcy earlier this year, the then CEO of Hostess was awarded a 300 percent raise (from approximately $750,000 to $2,550,000) and at least nine other top executives of the company received massive pay raises. One such executive received a pay increase from $500,000 to $900,000 and another received one taking his salary from $375,000 to $656,256."

That having been said, the Teamsters recommended taking the deal, yet some local unions torpedoed the latest deal, ruining it for all.
zioxide is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 05:34 PM   #143
eric/
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio, United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post

Did you check out the article I linked to?

I've heard it isn't hard to read.
Can you tell me what page it's on? This article I suppose states that the reason for their the cost savings being completely wiped out is because of CEO pay increases.
eric/ is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 05:37 PM   #144
Zombie Acorn
macrumors 65816
 
Zombie Acorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Do you consider bakers "unskilled"?

Edit: a very interesting article on the matter from the New York Times can be found here ...

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/11/...-liquidate/?hp

It's pretty hard to read that article and walk away thinking this is all the fault of unions.
If what hostess employees are doing makes them bakers then I am a chef in two minutes, my hot pockets are almost done in the microwave,

Living around two or three bakeries has brought to light how ****** prepackaged machine manufactured food really Is.
Zombie Acorn is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 05:38 PM   #145
eric/
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio, United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Try doing a little research or gathering even a tiny bit of factual information before you spout out a bunch of bull ****.

And how does a CEO deserve a 300% raise when his company has been in bankruptcy at least 3 times in the past few years? You run a company that poorly you deserve a pay cut not your salary being tripled while the minions take cuts to pay for your raise.



Do you guys not even read the thread?
Do you not read the thread?

As I've stated, those types of pay increases can occasionally be attributed to not being able to find a replacement executive. Not many people want to jump into a sinking ship.
eric/ is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 05:40 PM   #146
FreeState
macrumors 65816
 
FreeState's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
Why not just fire all the employees that are part of the unions who don't sign on? There are lots of other people who will take their unskilled jobs.
The company was bankrupt anyway, the management is trying to spin this into an anti-union political statement - rather than point the finger were it belongs, poor management.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	59065_10151315904196153_630530638_n.png
Views:	17
Size:	365.6 KB
ID:	377981  

Last edited by FreeState; Nov 17, 2012 at 05:50 PM.
FreeState is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 05:57 PM   #147
AlaskaMoose
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Alaska
Quote:
Originally Posted by leenak View Post
Even with a budget, there are many, many people barely scraping by these days. I live in a more expensive area but in this area we still have lower paid workers. It is much different from living in a big city vs small, rural area. You tend to do with a lot less in expensive areas.

I won't say that people don't overspend. I also believe that if someone is wealthy, they have most likely benefited by some part of those that are overworked and underpaid. I don't see a problem with seeking a better balance for the good of society.
What you said is true (people scraping by), and this has always been the case for a lot of people. That's why programs such as Welfare and other have been created by our Federal and local governments. Also, a lot of self-made rich people have come out of those poor neighborhoods. Things have changed, but the main reason generations of immigrants made it to this country was because of the liberties we had; the chance to make a better living, and to enjoy freedoms they could only dream of in their places of origin.

Just look at how the first generations of immigrants built this nation, how they fought for it through wars and famine. But a problem now is that self and instant gratification has become more important than hard work. It takes a lot of time for one to be able to pull out of poverty, and taking riches from the rich is not the answer. Regardless, of those living in poverty or working on minimum wage, the ones who plan ahead and create budgets they can live by... have a better chance to pull out of poverty than those who don't.

Taking your hard-earned money and giving it to your workers is not solving their problems, for it's only human to want more and more. The more I make the more I want, the more fish I catch the more I want to catch...

The more I eat, the more I crave food (Ho-Hos, donuts, and all of those things)
__________________
iMac, and MacBook Pro.
Canon.

Last edited by AlaskaMoose; Nov 17, 2012 at 06:06 PM.
AlaskaMoose is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 06:07 PM   #148
robanga
macrumors 68000
 
robanga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oregon
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeState View Post
The company was bankrupt anyway, the management is trying to spin this into an anti-union political statement - rather than point the finger were it belongs, poor management.
They probably believe their new buyers whether they be from Europe, Mexico or China will allow them to restructure and hire non-union labor. They are real pieces of work.
__________________
Soli Deo gloria
robanga is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 06:16 PM   #149
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
If what hostess employees are doing makes them bakers then I am a chef in two minutes, my hot pockets are almost done in the microwave,

Living around two or three bakeries has brought to light how ****** prepackaged machine manufactured food really Is.
Living around two or three bakeries makes you an expert on the skill level necessary to be a baker?

Why does this remind me of your claim that you just knew there were no black people living in your community.

You seem to absorb this knowledge by some sort of psychic ability.

That is quite impressive.
citizenzen is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 17, 2012, 06:56 PM   #150
leenak
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaMoose View Post
What you said is true (people scraping by), and this has always been the case for a lot of people. That's why programs such as Welfare and other have been created by our Federal and local governments. Also, a lot of self-made rich people have come out of those poor neighborhoods. Things have changed, but the main reason generations of immigrants made it to this country was because of the liberties we had; the chance to make a better living, and to enjoy freedoms they could only dream of in their places of origin.

Just look at how the first generations of immigrants built this nation, how they fought for it through wars and famine. But a problem now is that self and instant gratification has become more important than hard work. It takes a lot of time for one to be able to pull out of poverty, and taking riches from the rich is not the answer. Regardless, of those living in poverty or working on minimum wage, the ones who plan ahead and create budgets they can live by... have a better chance to pull out of poverty than those who don't.

Taking your hard-earned money and giving it to your workers is not solving their problems, for it's only human to want more and more. The more I make the more I want, the more fish I catch the more I want to catch...

The more I eat, the more I crave food (Ho-Hos, donuts, and all of those things)
I came from a poor neighborhood myself. I am not talking about people on welfare. I'm talking about people who work 2 jobs just to pay the rent, provide food for their family and what not. These people often don't have medical insurance and an illness in the family can wipe them out of what little savings they had. The problems they face is the cost of living keeps going up yet their wages are going down. I'm not saying we run a charity but we should look at what we can do to benefit low wage earners. It'd be nice to have corporations feel that they should support the people that help run their business rather than trying to only take what they can from the workers.

And if you want to talk about the pilgrims, maybe you should remember that they would've all died if it hadn't been for the native Americans that helped them. They didn't pull themselves up by their bootstraps, the got help from the natives and then killed off and stole land and resources from the very people that helped them.
leenak is offline   1 Reply With Quote


Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Labor Unions Huntn Politics, Religion, Social Issues 96 Apr 26, 2014 01:01 PM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:26 PM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC