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Old Nov 19, 2012, 12:26 AM   #76
lordofthereef
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Originally Posted by cclloyd9785 View Post
I feel like it should allow you to use it forever if its an older model that can't install 10.8.

ESPECIALLY if they are going to release a beta for it knowing that some users who download it won't be able to upgrade.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. But apple will argue all users have the option to upgrade. Some of them may just need to upgrade hardware altogether.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 12:31 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Saladinos View Post
It's not a question of not wanting to upgrade - I'd love to upgrade my 2008 MacBook to ML! All the sweet iCloud documents syncing with my iPad would be great!

The problem is that any Apple product with an Intel X3100 GPU or a GMA950 isn't supported by Mountain Lion. There are no 64-bit OSX GPU drivers for them (even though there are 64-bit Windows drivers for them, the rest of the system is capable of supporting a 64-bit OS, and Apple themselves even once shipped a buggy pre-release 64-bit driver in an OSX update before dropping it).

For some reason, Apple decided not to put the effort in to finish those 64-bit GPU drivers. Probably this same kind of planned obsolescence crap.

So yeah, I'd love to upgrade to Mountain Lion, but I can't. I did buy another machine (not for that - it's a RMBP and an enormous upgrade), but I'm not going to just chuck that computer away! It's going to my mum, who also has an iPhone and who I usually keep in contact with via iMessage.

Now I have to explain to her that, while she's messaged me on that same computer for months and months before now (and wanted that on her old windows machine), now she's finally getting a Mac but it can't do that stuff because Apple arbitrarily took it away.

Apple doesn't win anything by doing this to us. They just make it harder for us to communicate, and they give my mother a worse impression of Apple; as a company that actively takes away from its customers.

It also puts all Apple's other iCloud services in to question. Can you really rely on them? How long before my Mac stops supporting PhotoStream, for example? Google and Facebook have rock-solid services that you can use from any damned computer, and they never go obsolete. You're better off using Google Talk and Picasa, or Facebook messages and photos, then relying on iCloud. Even if you're all in the Apple ecosystem.

They are novices at the service game. I hope they turn this around quickly. I've got to say, Apple under Tim Cook seems to be doing a lot more of this crap than they ever did under Steve. Sure, products always go out of date - but Apple never dropped their users when they could technically still be supported.

It's worse when it comes to services. Especially when it's a mode of communication like this. Doubly so when they've been using the product for nearly a year and there's clearly no technical hurdle to overcome; It impacts people in a big way.
I agree I think apple thinks were all rich and can upgrade on a whim. Stocks will drop with more decisions like this.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 12:38 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by solarguy17 View Post
It could be worse. You could have you "start" menu discontinued with an upgrade to Win8. You want to say screwed? Try using Win8. It's missing a lot more feature then any release of OSX ever is.
Care to name some of those missing features? I'd love to hear them (seriously). Your metro tiles page IS your start menu, literally. It's just open by default and a lot bigger. The problem is its soooo much different than any precious version of windows and people are stealing out because they seen instantly getting the hang of it (which I can completely understand).
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 12:47 AM   #79
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He said selling hardware. Keyword = selling.
Yeah and his other keywords were that Apple is not a software company (so neither? than what the hell are they?) and then followed up by saying Apple selling *their* hardware. If its theirs, does that not imply they manufacture it?

Doesnt matter, this claim that apple is a hardware company is ridiculous. They are not and haven't been so in a very long time.

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I agree I think apple thinks were all rich and can upgrade on a whim. Stocks will drop with more decisions like this.
Their stocks have already dropped. They keep playing their game in the courts and their going to end up just like microsoft after the 90s.... theyre already on the same path.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 12:55 AM   #80
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Yup, count me as a +1 to that group who thinks this is stupid because of hardware limitations.
My MacBook Pro is a few years old, yet was one of the ones cut right before the 10.8 requirements.
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Originally Posted by Saladinos View Post
I'd love to upgrade to Mountain Lion, but I can't. I did buy another machine (not for that - it's a RMBP and an enormous upgrade), but I'm not going to just chuck that computer away!
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Originally Posted by 3bs View Post
Sure, I'll pay for it but Apple aren't giving us that option and I can't upgrade to 10.8 unfortunately.
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Originally Posted by SimonTheSoundMa View Post
I guess two of my four Macs will not have iMessage as they can't run Mountain Lion. Two are 2007 MacBooks.
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Originally Posted by dead_smed View Post
I also find it annoying that it's soon going to expire. I have an old Mac Mini that isn't capable of running 10.8 and can't justify buying new hardware just for desktop iMessaging.
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Originally Posted by t22design View Post
Yep it's annoying. I'm a MacBook user that can't upgrade to Mountain Lion and these constant fake limitations drive me mad.
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Originally Posted by CplBadboy View Post
Very disappointing news. I also received the email. Again, my hardware is apparently not compatible with running ML and I have found the iMessages very useful.
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Originally Posted by theanimaster View Post
Aw, horse excrement. What'll my wife use now on her ol' white macbook? What -- upgrade to a new mac??
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Originally Posted by Rog210 View Post
I can't upgrade to ML even if I wanted to. My 2007 MP is unsupported even though they sold me a "64 bit" machine.
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Originally Posted by philipk View Post
My wife's computer is too old for Mountain Lion.
Don't worry, it could still be possible to overcome these fake limitations and install 10.8 on your good old Mac!

Simple Instruction

Long instruction, use if the simple instruction fails

.

Last edited by AppleMacFinder; Nov 20, 2012 at 12:30 AM. Reason: adding quotes to notify people
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 01:50 AM   #81
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Once again Apple users have to buy the new crappy OS for something they could have done with the previous OS.

All the more reason to dislike Apple.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 02:03 AM   #82
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I can't believe that Messages isn't supported on my Newton!! Come on Apple!! What's up with that??!!
You mean that it won't work on my E-Mate either? Since E-Mate is basically a Newton with a keyboard, I wonder why it doesn't work with my 2012 MBP. It's got a IR port.

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Old Nov 19, 2012, 02:19 AM   #83
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I just don't get this messages thing:

First you have all your contacts in the contact list: 99.99% of them are NOT available on Messages, so why list them?

There is no online/offline status, so no idea when someone can receive a message.

FaceTime is a separate app, why the hell is that?

No way to communicate with people on Windows: I may have a Mac, but I have friends that have Windows (I know it's extremely weird and Apple NEVER thought of this, but it does happen to other I'm sure).

No idea if the person you're about to contact will receive your message: Maybe they never will, since they don't have an iPhone (how should I know?) or they don't have a Mac with Mountain Lion (I know, very weird but it happens right?).

… as opposed to Skype, where there's a clear list of who you can contact, with Online and Offline statuses, and it works on Mac, PC, and iOS. Yes, it's slow and buggy and a bad program, but at least I can communicate with anyone I want. I'd rather have one messaging app that kind of works than 2 of which none work really well.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 02:46 AM   #84
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There is no online/offline status, so no idea when someone can receive a message.
Why are people not getting this??

You are online all the time, messages will be received in an instant - it's texting, been there for decades now.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 03:03 AM   #85
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Everyone here should simply email Apple about how they feel and see what happens.
You're kidding, right? Or just naive to Apple's character. Apple can't care a stuff about customers, or, to put it in their words, "They can't please everyone". The only way to get Apple to listen, actually there are two ways: (1) loss of money and sales, and (2) mass humiliation through the media, e.g. antenna-gate. Other than that, if sales are skyrocketing, you basically can go and jump if you think Apple will listen to you. It has been baked into Apple's DNA that Apple does not listen to customers. Search the internet for Steve Jobs' comment that Apple does not do customer surveys. Apple's policy is to tell you what you will take. As a prime example, for 6 years, Apple has refused to offer a non-glossy, anti-glare screen for the iMac and external displays (Cinema Displays). That's not because people haven't asked. Professionals, photographs, graphic designers, people who are prone to eye-strain, we've all asked Apple, signed petitions. Basically Apple can't care a stuff about customers as long as the money is rolling in.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 03:17 AM   #86
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Very disappointing news. I also received the email. Again, my hardware is apparently not compatible with running ML and I have found the iMessages very useful. Lets hope they release it in the App store as a proper release for Lion. They are going to have to do something as I dont have iChat anymore and cant re download it. Apple is slowly but surely alienating customers.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 03:56 AM   #87
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Maybe your college WIFI is broken.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 04:01 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by wikus
Once again Apple users have to buy the new crappy OS for something they could have done with the previous OS.

All the more reason to dislike Apple.

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If you run a business you will act the same
Mike MA - I run a business and I would never nickel and dime my customers the way Apple does.... I would never alienate them the way Apple does... I would lose business in a second. Of course I am a small fry business compared to Apple... Apple still has great customer service, but their senior-executiive decision-making is atrocious.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 04:48 AM   #89
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Thumbs down

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/02/16/...-app-for-os-x/

Pretty clear to me that iMessage is a beta, and not to be included on computers given to your mom who couldn't possibly understand why it'll not be there some day.

You upset people are truly astonishing. This type of behavior is more than typical, it's to be expected. And they layed it out, clear as day, that this is "a taste of what’s coming in OS X Mountain Lion."
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 04:52 AM   #90
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The full version should be at least be offered on the App store for a small fee. There are a lot of machines out there that are not able to upgrade to mountain lion and if you installed the beta it deleted the existing Chat app. This is not a good move by Apple, their hardware is very well built so lasts a long time and the lack of support for older machines is increasingly becoming problematic.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 05:35 AM   #91
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NEWS FLASH. Apple is a technology company that does business in having you buy the newest and latest every year. Smart business move and it's many like these that make them have the largest Market Cap in the world.
NEWS FLASH. Apple never used to be like this. One reason I bought an Apple in the first place was because their computers didn't go obsolete so quickly as PC's and were supported for much longer for OS releases. One of my neighbours has one of the first iMac's and he is now running Tiger on it. That was the latest OS he could run, but if you look at how old the computer is compared to Tiger it is still pretty amazing. It runs it pretty well too.

When I first moved to a Mac in 2007 I liked the fact that most Apps supported a good many previous OS releases. These days we are seeing software updates that won't even support Snow Leopard any more.

This would be fine and good if OS X was updated every few years. But at the moment it is seemingly on an almost yearly cycle. I don't mind this, but what i do mind is forced obsolescence on such a fast release cycle.

if you run a business any computer hardware you have must pay back it's investment as quickly as possible. This becomes much harder to do if OS releases obsolete your hardware and new updates for the software that you use only support the newer releases.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 06:00 AM   #92
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thats to bad, but do a lot of people really use it?
I hardly used the beta as it was very buggy for me. But I do use iMessage a lot on Mountain Lion. It's still a little buggy, though.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 06:22 AM   #93
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thats to bad, but do a lot of people really use it?
Fortunately, all of my friends have at least one device running iMessage. So it's actually my most used way of communication. Still I hope Apple opens iMessage and Facetime for everyone, although it's extremely unlikely.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 06:32 AM   #94
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Let's all live in the past and die alone with all of our beta versions!
What, you mean like beta Siri and beta Apple Maps? Beta releases seem to be a common theme with the 'new' Apple. But this is obviously a blatant sales tactic by Apple forcing you into the beta in the hope you'll buy a new OS or computer, it forces you to buy a new iPod Touch or iPhone for the latest iOS so it's nothing new.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 07:39 AM   #95
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thats to bad, but do a lot of people really use it?
I never used it on Lion, and have yet to use it on Mountain Lion. It only makes sense to use it on an iPhone.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 07:42 AM   #96
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Yeah and his other keywords were that Apple is not a software company (so neither? than what the hell are they?) and then followed up by saying Apple selling *their* hardware. If its theirs, does that not imply they manufacture it?

Doesnt matter, this claim that apple is a hardware company is ridiculous. They are not and haven't been so in a very long time.
Defining Apple as a "software" vs. "hardware" company is what's ridiculous, given that they sell products based on the combined strength of both software and hardware design (and design is by far the most lucrative aspect of the hardware they sell).

What is certain is that they make relatively very little money from software sold separately, and that they make the vast majority of the profit on the hardware they sell, regardless who actually fabricates the components.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 08:00 AM   #97
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On the question of "upgrading hardware every year", every computer in my house is ML compatible, the oldest of which is almost five years old. So, it seems that as long as you've upgraded your hardware within the last few years, you'd be fine with this. This does make me curious about what the most recent machine that was Lion compatible but not ML compatible was...
The worst case for Mountain Lion would be if someone had bought a mid 2007 Mac Mini in March 2009, just before the new models were released. That was three years and four months before Mountain Lion was introduced.

The oldest model supported by Mountain Lion is the Mid 2007 MacBook Pro, introduced in June 2007, which was five years and one month before Mountain Lion.

Putting it another way, Mountain Lion supported all Macs introduced up to three years and four months earlier, and some Macs introduced up to five years and one month earlier.

The worst case has been less than four years for Leopard and every subsequent version. The Intel transition (Snow Leopard) had a very tight cutoff (three years to three years and seven months), but the best case has been improving since then, and is now just over five years for Mountain Lion. There is some hope it may improve further, unless Apple does arbitrary cutoffs rather than ones which at least have a technical explanation.

If you buy a new Mac late in the life cycle of that generation, you can be pretty certain that it will be able to run any version of OS X released within the next three years, and many (but not all) models will be able to run OS X versions released between three and four years later. Support rapidly dwindles beyond that, and it is rare to have a Mac model supported by an OS X version introduced more than five years after that model was discontinued or superseded.

If you buy a new Mac early in the life cycle of that generation, add the time that series is current, which might be as little as three months, but in some cases has been more than a year.

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These fake boundaries by Apple are really annoying. ... You also cant upgrade to Lion on the mac app store for some reason and have to call apple to get a key (seems really backwards to me).
Hiding Lion from the App Store is part of Apple's normal pattern: when a new OS X version is released, they stop selling the previous version through normal retail channels, but you can still order it (or earlier versions) by ringing Apple Sales. I expect this is done to reduce accidental purchases of an older version. If you have to at least talk to a sales rep, they can ask sensible questions to ensure you aren't buying the wrong version by mistake.

There was one recent exception: Apple continued to sell Snow Leopard on DVD via the online store while Lion was current, presumably to encourage Intel Leopard users to upgrade, but they did pull it from normal retail channels. Snow Leopard disappeared from the online store when Mountain Lion was released, but can still be ordered by ringing Apple Sales.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 08:20 AM   #98
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The problem is that any Apple product with an Intel X3100 GPU or a GMA950 isn't supported by Mountain Lion. There are no 64-bit OSX GPU drivers for them (even though there are 64-bit Windows drivers for them, the rest of the system is capable of supporting a 64-bit OS, and Apple themselves even once shipped a buggy pre-release 64-bit driver in an OSX update before dropping it).

For some reason, Apple decided not to put the effort in to finish those 64-bit GPU drivers. Probably this same kind of planned obsolescence crap.
Add the NVIDIA GeForce 7n00 series and ATI Radeon X1n00 series to the list of unsupported GPUs (the ATI ones did have 64-bit drivers, used on the 2008 Xserve in Lion).

I suspect the primary reason these GPUs (and the Intel GMA950 and X3100) were dropped by Mountain Lion is their inability to support advanced features like OpenCL and later versions of OpenGL, or simple lack of performance. By only supporting newer GPUs in Mountain Lion, Apple can write code in Mountain Lion (or in future applications which require Mountain Lion or later) that uses OpenCL without needing to implement a fallback option for models with GPUs that don't support it.

This is probably why development ceased for the 64-bit drivers for the Intel X3100 - it wouldn't have extended the life of those Mac models if the GPU wasn't powerful enough to support features Apple wanted to use more widely.

Same goes for the GMA950, but in that case it was worse as many models with GMA950 also had 32-bit EFI, which ruled out running the 64-bit kernel without developing a boot loader.

The 2006-2007 Mac Pro was unlucky as it was the only series with 32-bit EFI but an upgradeable GPU. It probably wasn't worth the effort on Apple's part to develop a boot loader or a firmware upgrade to allow the use of the 64-bit kernel just for a relatively small number of Mac Pros that were more than four years old.

By dropping support for all models with older GPUs and those Mac Pros, Mountain Lion was able to drop the 32-bit kernel and all associated development and testing.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 08:28 AM   #99
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If you have a Core 2 Duo machine then you can most likely get ML installed. I'm currently running Lion on a Core 2 Duo system which has a 965 chipset (Gigabyte GA-965P-S3 motherboard). I originally built this machine to run Vista but later stumbled upon the Hackintosh scene. Since then I've been running OSX since Leopard.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 08:32 AM   #100
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I run a business and I would never nickel and dime my customers the way Apple does.... I would never alienate them the way Apple does... I would lose business in a second. Of course I am a small fry business compared to Apple... Apple still has great customer service, but their senior-executiive decision-making is atrocious.
I think you mentioned they key difference yourself - the unique selling point of small or medium-sized businesses are a very close and strong customer relationship. And I'm sure you act the same having very pleased customers.

But I tend to demand the same from my favourite companies as for example Apple is, but I know I won't get it
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