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Old Nov 19, 2012, 08:47 AM   #101
ejl10
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More weak sauce from Apple. They're really desperate to move us all closer to iOS as a desktop OS - walled gardens for everyone!

Glad I don't use Messages on my Macs... they'll continue to run Lion and my iPhone/iPad will continue to run iOS5.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 08:51 AM   #102
Saladinos
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Originally Posted by dempson View Post
I suspect the primary reason these GPUs (and the Intel GMA950 and X3100) were dropped by Mountain Lion is their inability to support advanced features like OpenCL and later versions of OpenGL, or simple lack of performance. By only supporting newer GPUs in Mountain Lion, Apple can write code in Mountain Lion (or in future applications which require Mountain Lion or later) that uses OpenCL without needing to implement a fallback option for models with GPUs that don't support it.

This is probably why development ceased for the 64-bit drivers for the Intel X3100 - it wouldn't have extended the life of those Mac models if the GPU wasn't powerful enough to support features Apple wanted to use more widely.
It's definitely not related to OpenCL. I don't know if Apple actually use CL in the OS, but CL code is meant for heterogenous computing - CL code can run on the CPU, not just the GPU.

The way you use OpenCL is you have a small program's source code embedded in your app, and then compile it and execute it at runtime depending on which devices are present.

Depending on the type of program, it might not be as fast as on a GPU, but again - I don't see anywhere in ML where Apple are doing enormous amounts of parallel computations.

Apple stopped developing the drivers because they're now being led by a bean counter. Look at the Browett saga - lots of people were saying that he was supported internally by Cook. Cook doesn't really get the way Apple has had to build strong relationships with its customers.

The pre-Cook Apple was keenly aware of how close they were to annihilation by Microsoft. They knew that it wasn't Gates' investment that saved them - it was their customers. Those customers would have left a long time ago if not for the strength of the relationship that Apple had forged with them.

The problem is that without that strong relationship, Apple really is just an overpriced toy company.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 10:16 AM   #103
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My wife's computer is too old for Mountain Lion.

We downloaded iMessage beta and it works fine on her Lion machine. Truthfully she doesn't use it often. However, it is VERY annoying to loose it.

I do not like Apple's ways of forcing us into new software or new machines.

However two points in their favor.

1. My wife's computer still functions well with the way it was sold and after two OS X upgrades.

2. OS X still rocks.

Churchill said "Democracy is the worst system until you look at the rest".

I feel that way about Apple.

Apple's marketing sticks until you look at the rest.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 10:22 AM   #104
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My favorite company makes me cRaZy sometimes.

Obviously Lion can run it. But some of those machines with Lion CANNOT be upgraded to Mountain Lion...

If it can run, keep it. Charge for it even. Make it $1.99 and remind people that for $19.99 they could get the whole OS. But if they can't run it, that's just mean

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Old Nov 19, 2012, 10:35 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by apolloa View Post
What, you mean like beta Siri and beta Apple Maps? Beta releases seem to be a common theme with the 'new' Apple. But this is obviously a blatant sales tactic by Apple forcing you into the beta in the hope you'll buy a new OS or computer, it forces you to buy a new iPod Touch or iPhone for the latest iOS so it's nothing new.
They are not beta releases. Apple doesn't allow beta releases in the App store or Mac App store. Or perhaps any app released in the Mac/App store is beta, since they don't allow separate 'beta' releases.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 10:37 AM   #106
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Not the most savvy move on Apple's part. Not only should Apple allow older-OS users to keep using Messages, it should expand Messages to Windows, too. A communications protocol and app shouldn't be limited to one platform.

Say Apple doesn't port it to Android, as another perk of going iOS, but at least extend it to Windoze users so we can communicate with most of the PC users using Messages. It might be a further draw to iOS once they are familiar with the desktop version.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 10:54 AM   #107
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@impaler
I submitted a response to your OSX feedback link. Thanks for posting.
I've included the bulk of it in case anyone wants to copy/pasta/revise it to save them some time in constructing their own:

It is understandable that Apple desires to release hot new features on their newest OSes, leverage them as incentive for customers to purchase new machines, and allow their developers to focus on the latest and greatest without having to code for older hardware.

It is not understandable, however, when a feature is limited solely because Apple wants to impose obsolescence. I am writing at this moment about an application's removal that will not affect me severely- the loss of Messages for Lion users, but this is a trend that breeds distrust and feels like Apple is treating its users with both a stick and a carrot- like animals being funneled toward the next product.

Messages works on OS X Lion. I know because Apple let me "beta" test it. I understand that beta testing means eventually you'll have to buy the actual product when it is released, but like many people, I can't- and not for lack of desire. I look forward to wrangling up enough money to be able to afford a new Retina Macbook. I can't help but feel disrespected by this treatment, however, and concerned about this trend's continuance.

I have an iPhone 4, as well. It is less obvious - Apple didn't allow iPhone 4 users to use Siri or 3D Maps or the Panorama mode in Camera before pulling them and saying "great! Thanks for your use and understanding while we test these products. Now pony up and buy the next iPhone!" - and so less of the population is bound to know that some of these features do work Without additional coding, but many of them have been demonstrated to work fine by interested hackers. Those are less distasteful omissions, however. At least Apple can argue that the experience was not up to par on the older hardware, and that they care about meeting expectations and providing the best experience possible. Apple's users love Apple for that stance.

But Messages has been proven to work, and it works fine. It is a taste of the types of features Mountain Lion holds, once it's users finally get the hardware that can run it, and there's no reason I can see to pull it once it had been given. Leave it in Beta mode. Stop supporting it. But don't downgrade your users, Apple. That's lame, and we can look over at our friends that subscribe to Google's offerings and see that there is a more open spirit there. That they get their identical libraries held on the cloud for free. That their calendars sync to all of their devices inherently.

Don't be mean, Apple. You're the biggest company in the world because people love your products. Don't give them reasons to doubt their allegiance.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 12:17 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by davida1 View Post
They are not beta releases. Apple doesn't allow beta releases in the App store or Mac App store. Or perhaps any app released in the Mac/App store is beta, since they don't allow separate 'beta' releases.
Erm? Siri is still in Beta as far as I know as it still does not work fully, and Apple Maps is also in Beta as it too is a broken and unfinished application. I am also not talking about the app store when mentioning these products as I believe I am correct in stating you cannot get Siri from the app store for one?
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 12:46 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by treichert View Post
Why are people not getting this??

You are online all the time, messages will be received in an instant - it's texting, been there for decades now.
Sorry, but not if you don't have an iPhone! And not if you don't spend 24 hours a day sitting in front of your computer. A text is a text, you know it goes to a PHONE.

A message via a messaging app is NOT a text. It should be made clear whether the person will get the message immediately (i.e. they either have an iPhone or their Mac is not sleeping), or whether they will never get it (they don't own an Apple product, and never have heard of Messages).

I'm tired of getting messages like "hey, are you there? - Sent Yesterday at 2:30pm"

Messages makes it feel like you can write to anyone in the world at any time of the day, there's no contact list, so you just type a name and there you go. Too bad people sleep, live in various time zones, and don't necessarily own iPhones and Macs with Mountain Lion installed. It just doesn't work!
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 12:56 PM   #110
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They should sell it as an app for Lion users. Some just can't upgrade to Mountain Lion.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 02:18 PM   #111
HVDynamo
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Originally Posted by emerazea View Post
@impaler
I submitted a response to your OSX feedback link. Thanks for posting.
I've included the bulk of it in case anyone wants to copy/pasta/revise it to save them some time in constructing their own:

It is understandable that Apple desires to release hot new features on their newest OSes, leverage them as incentive for customers to purchase new machines, and allow their developers to focus on the latest and greatest without having to code for older hardware.

It is not understandable, however, when a feature is limited solely because Apple wants to impose obsolescence. I am writing at this moment about an application's removal that will not affect me severely- the loss of Messages for Lion users, but this is a trend that breeds distrust and feels like Apple is treating its users with both a stick and a carrot- like animals being funneled toward the next product.

Messages works on OS X Lion. I know because Apple let me "beta" test it. I understand that beta testing means eventually you'll have to buy the actual product when it is released, but like many people, I can't- and not for lack of desire. I look forward to wrangling up enough money to be able to afford a new Retina Macbook. I can't help but feel disrespected by this treatment, however, and concerned about this trend's continuance.

I have an iPhone 4, as well. It is less obvious - Apple didn't allow iPhone 4 users to use Siri or 3D Maps or the Panorama mode in Camera before pulling them and saying "great! Thanks for your use and understanding while we test these products. Now pony up and buy the next iPhone!" - and so less of the population is bound to know that some of these features do work Without additional coding, but many of them have been demonstrated to work fine by interested hackers. Those are less distasteful omissions, however. At least Apple can argue that the experience was not up to par on the older hardware, and that they care about meeting expectations and providing the best experience possible. Apple's users love Apple for that stance.

But Messages has been proven to work, and it works fine. It is a taste of the types of features Mountain Lion holds, once it's users finally get the hardware that can run it, and there's no reason I can see to pull it once it had been given. Leave it in Beta mode. Stop supporting it. But don't downgrade your users, Apple. That's lame, and we can look over at our friends that subscribe to Google's offerings and see that there is a more open spirit there. That they get their identical libraries held on the cloud for free. That their calendars sync to all of their devices inherently.

Don't be mean, Apple. You're the biggest company in the world because people love your products. Don't give them reasons to doubt their allegiance.
Well said.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 02:49 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by katewes View Post
You're kidding, right? Or just naive to Apple's character. Apple can't care a stuff about customers, or, to put it in their words, "They can't please everyone". The only way to get Apple to listen, actually there are two ways: (1) loss of money and sales, and (2) mass humiliation through the media, e.g. antenna-gate. Other than that, if sales are skyrocketing, you basically can go and jump if you think Apple will listen to you. It has been baked into Apple's DNA that Apple does not listen to customers. Search the internet for Steve Jobs' comment that Apple does not do customer surveys. Apple's policy is to tell you what you will take. As a prime example, for 6 years, Apple has refused to offer a non-glossy, anti-glare screen for the iMac and external displays (Cinema Displays). That's not because people haven't asked. Professionals, photographs, graphic designers, people who are prone to eye-strain, we've all asked Apple, signed petitions. Basically Apple can't care a stuff about customers as long as the money is rolling in.
You sir are correct. I have nothing more to add to that. Thanks.

I'm still using iChat on OS 10.6.8 and use an old 23" Apple Cinema Display with Non-Glossy screen.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 04:23 PM   #113
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Aw, horse excrement. What'll my wife use now on her ol' white macbook? What -- upgrade to a new mac??

Ah well, I got her an iPad (3) anyways. She can use that.

... or her (soon to have) iPhone 5.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 04:43 PM   #114
MagnusVonMagnum
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Apple are not forcing you to do anything. Back porting the final version of Messages would have taken a fair amount of work and there is no incentive for Apple to do so. People need to stop their sense of self entitlement.
It's not self-entitlement. It's a reasonable expectation for an operating system to continue to function for more than a flipping YEAR. I barely even noticed Lion existed before Mountain Lion came out and thus I still have Snow Leopard on my MBP.

It's great Apple wants to add new features to OSX, but maybe they should take a page out of OSX 10.4 and extend such basic things to the existing operating system through system updates rather than arbitrary "major" updates that feel like very small point updates to me. I just got a Macbook Pro 13" for my mother since she has a hard time with all the crap in Windows constantly updating and virus checking, etc. and just getting in the way of using the computer. She's ALREADY commented that OSX is nagging her to do software updates just like Windows did. Having not updated my day-to-day PPC Mac for ages and routinely having very few things TO update on my Snow Leopard machine, I hadn't realized how bad it would be to new user with a new computer using the latest OS.

Frankly, there's something to be said for a STABLE OS platform that is NOT updated every other week. Updating SOFTWARE (and Messages IS really just software) shouldn't mean updating the entire flipping operating system in order to update a simple application. It's getting ridiculous and it has a LOT to do with the speed at which the mobile market moves where technology is still rapidly developing and hardware is being constantly updated (unlike a desktop environment where you only need so much power to run things like Microsoft Word and a web browser).

It's all the more reason Apple should consider using public "development" operating system builds and leave things stable for major releases. In other words, until Mountain Lion is complete, Lion should not have to suffer any loss of function (i.e. the basic apps like iChat should be stable and not be getting messages like, "if you wish to continue using something that's been in OSX for the past decade, you MUST update to Mountain Lion and that means forking over money. If your computer CAN'T update, FRAK YOU. Go buy some newer hardware you LEECH!" And THAT is the truth of what Apple is REALLY saying, I'm afraid.

Microsoft should NOT be trying to emulate Apple's mobile success, IMO. They should be the ROCK that is STABLE and RELIABLE instead. Windows8 fails in that regard by negating the interface everyone is already used to. If they want a new interface, make it an OPTION for goodness sake, not the new default! I don't think Apple or Microsoft seem to get that some of us might like to CHOOSE how our desktop looks and behaves rather than someone else DICTATING it.

OTOH, let's get back to point updates versus major ones. I've now used OSX 10.8.2 and to be honest, other than the launch pad/mission control thing, it looks/feels EXACTLY like Leopard (10.5) and frankly, very similar to 10.4 and 10.3, etc. That's a GOOD thing for the most part, IMO because there's nothing wrong with the OSX interface (although things like multi-monitor support with docks/menus could use a BIG improvement and yet that's the one area Apple REFUSES to work on!!!)

The problem is when they start artificially limiting what software can run on what hardware. They want you to upgrade to 10.8. Fine. Hold on a second. There's an increasing list of hardware that isn't allowed to run 10.8. Is there something wrong with those computers? No. Apple would just prefer to 'encourage' you to buy hardware you don't need. How about ENTICING me to upgrade with actual hardware improvements that I care about rather than an aribitrary decision on some greedy accountant's part (oh wait that would be Tim Cook ).

Sadly, the only thing the consumer can do is provide feedback and vote with their wallets. That appears to be the ONLY thing Apple understands.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 05:49 PM   #115
nsayer
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Originally Posted by wikus View Post
Do you know what design means?
Apparently more than you. To recap, here's what the dictionary says:

design |dəˈzīn|
verb [ with obj. ]
decide upon the look and functioning of (a building, garment, or other object), typically by making a detailed drawing of it: a number of architectural students were designing a factory | [ as adj. with submodifier ] (designed) : specially designed buildings.

I would say that Apple certainly decides upon the look and functioning of the motherboards that go into Apple products.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 06:04 PM   #116
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I can't upgrade to ML even if I wanted to. My 2007 MP is unsupported even though they sold me a "64 bit" machine. I won't upgrade either as the current MPs are long overdue an overhaul. When the time comes I'm thinking I'd quite like to control my own hardware, which sadly means Windows for me.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 06:33 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by nsayer View Post
Apparently more than you. To recap, here's what the dictionary says:

design |dəˈzīn|
verb [ with obj. ]
decide upon the look and functioning of (a building, garment, or other object), typically by making a detailed drawing of it: a number of architectural students were designing a factory | [ as adj. with submodifier ] (designed) : specially designed buildings.

I would say that Apple certainly decides upon the look and functioning of the motherboards that go into Apple products.
Good, now that you understand the term design (and youre speaking to someone who's job that actually is) would you care to tell me how Apple is a hardware company if it only lays the schematic for Intel motherboards and does nothing else?
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 06:39 PM   #118
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It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't restrict the OS from running on older, but still capable hardware. Who's behind this?
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 08:34 PM   #119
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The feature was billed as a Mountain Lion feature so it sucks that you can't use it on Lion after the 14th of next month, but I'm hardly surprised that they've finally release a closing date of the beta, as it's been a generous beta. I would've thought they would've closed it after the public launch of GM.
Um yeah, please apply that logic to the Mac App Store that was beta on Snow Leopard and still works.... oh wait... that makes apple money.... of course they left that active...
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 06:01 AM   #120
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NEWS FLASH. Apple never used to be like this. One reason I bought an Apple in the first place was because their computers didn't go obsolete so quickly as PC's and were supported for much longer for OS releases. One of my neighbours has one of the first iMac's and he is now running Tiger on it. That was the latest OS he could run, but if you look at how old the computer is compared to Tiger it is still pretty amazing. It runs it pretty well too.

When I first moved to a Mac in 2007 I liked the fact that most Apps supported a good many previous OS releases. These days we are seeing software updates that won't even support Snow Leopard any more.

This would be fine and good if OS X was updated every few years. But at the moment it is seemingly on an almost yearly cycle. I don't mind this, but what i do mind is forced obsolescence on such a fast release cycle.

if you run a business any computer hardware you have must pay back it's investment as quickly as possible. This becomes much harder to do if OS releases obsolete your hardware and new updates for the software that you use only support the newer releases.
I agree completely. The only thing I will counter with is that OS upgrades used to cost much more for a single computer. Now, the upgrades are very affordable.

That being said I still haven't upgraded any of my machines to Mountain Lion yet.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 05:49 PM   #121
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Good, now that you understand the term design (and youre speaking to someone who's job that actually is) would you care to tell me how Apple is a hardware company if it only lays the schematic for Intel motherboards and does nothing else?
Your definition of a "hardware company," as clearly as is the color of the sky in your tiny little world, is unique. Clearly this conversation can serve no further useful purpose.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 06:47 PM   #122
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Your definition of a "hardware company," as clearly as is the color of the sky in your tiny little world, is unique. Clearly this conversation can serve no further useful purpose.
If everyone followed your logic, the words design and manufacturing would be the same.

Apple does nothing for manufacturing nor do they do any R&D for processors or motherboards. You need to accept this reality.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 09:56 PM   #123
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Apple does nothing for manufacturing
Congratulations. A lot of companies outsource their manufacturing. Are you now going to tell me none of those companies (aside from maybe Amazon) are hardware companies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikus View Post
nor do they do any R&D for processors
True for their computer line, false for the iOS lineup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikus View Post
or motherboards.
Please explain to me where Apple picks up these off the shelf, generic motherboards for the MacBook Pro/Air, the Mac mini, and the iMac.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 10:29 PM   #124
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Congratulations. A lot of companies outsource their manufacturing. Are you now going to tell me none of those companies (aside from maybe Amazon) are hardware companies?


True for their computer line, false for the iOS lineup.


Please explain to me where Apple picks up these off the shelf, generic motherboards for the MacBook Pro/Air, the Mac mini, and the iMac.
There there, no need to be snide just because someone pointed out Apple for not being a hardware company.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 06:25 PM   #125
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Um yeah, please apply that logic to the Mac App Store that was beta on Snow Leopard and still works.... oh wait... that makes apple money.... of course they left that active...
Yes, and it was the main way of upgrading to Lion.
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