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Old Nov 17, 2012, 08:59 AM   #1
eric/
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Israel and Palestine in Crises Mode

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Since the start of its operation, Israel's army said it carried out some 700 airstrikes. It also said that fighters have fired more than 580 rockets over the border, 367 of which hit southern Israel, and 222 of which were intercepted by the Iron Dome anti-missile system.

The Gaza Interior Ministry said a government compound was also hit as devout Muslims streamed to the area for early morning prayers. So, too, was a Cabinet building where the Hamas prime minister received the prime minister of Egypt on Friday.

In southern Gaza, Israeli aircraft went after the hundreds of underground tunnels used to smuggle in weapons and other contraband from Egypt, people in the area reported.
This is just an exert to hopefully get this discussion going.

Some things to note. The US, UK, and Germany have denounced Hamas firing rockets into Israel.
The Arab world, Egypt in particular, have denounced Israel.

With Israel massing troops on the Gaza border, an invasion seems imminent. Is it justified? How should Israel respond to Hamas launching hundreds of rockets?
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:16 AM   #2
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Proportionality is everything, and for decades now this fight has been completely one sided. You supress people, make them live in terror, knowingly and willfully withhold supplies, only let in less food and aid than is actually required, kill civilians with drones (basically anything that moves in the streets) and wonder why there are those in the community that will fight back in the only (hugely underwhelming) way possible (a few hundred rocket attacks a year)?

Look at the body counts, then look at the fact that the Palestinians have no fighting force whatsoever, yet the entire population has to suffer because somehow Israel justifies this completely one sided (by the numbers) behavior under "self defense". Please.

I'm amazed that the world has simply stood by (well, actually mostly the US (and the states is controls) blocking everything in the UN, while the people who have seen arguably worst mass killings in history commit a multi-decade slow motion genocide. It's disgusting. Not even the "lefty" media in this country has the balls to call this for what it is, they just forward along the talking points with no hard questions.

Remember, with all the forces, resources, and the sheer death toll being completely lopsided, somehow the onus is on Hamas to back down. Also, somehow everyone in Gaza is considered part of Hamas, so you know, everyone is a bad guy worth shooting at including civilians, women, children, journalists, and their homes.

I've never been more disgusted with the international community than I have been this week.

For anyone that tries the play the anti-semetic card, my issue is not with a religion or a people, its with the militant leadership that is hellbent on war throughout the world with no real justification other than stirring up the memory of the Holocaust. Look in the mirror, what exactly do you leaders think is happening in Palestine? The territory has been eroding for decades as you take more and more land by force and actively suppress the people in an attempt to slowly take the territory back. It's inhuman, its monsterous, and its got to stop. Please, people of Israel, I know you are just as sick and tired of the killing and just as compassionate as any other humans on the planet, oust these criminals from power before it is too late!

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Last edited by NT1440; Nov 17, 2012 at 09:25 AM.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:24 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by NT1440 View Post
Proportionality is everything, and for decades now this fight has been completely one sided.
I'm not sure why you think this fight has been completely one sided.

I've seen decades of retaliatory strikes by both sides.

Decades.

Sooner or later someone will have to bear the burden of not retaliating ... of enduring strikes in order to achieve a lasting peace. IMO, that has to be the role for Israel to take if this cycle of violence is going to be resolved.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:25 AM   #4
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I'm not sure why you think this fight has been completely one sided.

I've seen decades of retaliatory strikes by both sides.

Decades.

Sooner or later someone will have to bear the burden of not retaliating ... of enduring strikes in order to achieve a lasting peace. IMO, that has to be the role for Israel to take if this cycle of violence is going to be resolved.
Body count, body count, body count.

If it was even close to remotely even I'd be singing a different tune.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:35 AM   #5
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Hamas has no interest in peace.

You guys need to understand this.

The total destruction of Israel is the only end that Hamas and their backers will accept.

Israel has no choice if they want to survive other than to take overwhelming force into Gaza and destroy Hamas completely.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:41 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
Hamas has no interest in peace.

You guys need to understand this.

The total destruction of Israel is the only end that Hamas and their backers will accept.

Israel has no choice if they want to survive other than to take overwhelming force into Gaza and destroy Hamas completely.

That is exactly the mindset that will perpetuate the cycle of violence ... each side seeking to destroy each other completely ... a truly irrational goal.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:41 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
Hamas has no interest in peace.

You guys need to understand this.
Israel has no interest in peace either, if they wanted peace, they could recognize a Palestinian state in the West Bank where the leaders are not huge supporters of violence. As it is if you're a Palestinian, you see that the violence has at least kept Israeli settlers out of Gaza while all the land in the West Bank is being taken away.

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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post

Israel has no choice if they want to survive other than to take overwhelming force into Gaza and destroy Hamas completely.
So you're suggesting a genocide and killing almost everyone in the Gaza strip, because that's what it would take to get rid of Hamas.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:47 AM   #8
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Israel has no choice if they want to survive other than to take overwhelming force into Gaza and destroy Hamas completely.
Except that doesn't work. Look at Afghanistan with the Soviets (and us). All that overwhelming force does is create resentment and drives recruitment to the very groups you're trying to destroy. History is very clear about this. Force doesn't work if the aim is peace.

If you want a current example, just take a look at the results of "the surge", higher levels of violence and fighting than we've seen in years.

Last edited by NT1440; Nov 17, 2012 at 09:57 AM.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:59 AM   #9
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I wasn't aware that the Israeli-Arab war in 1949 ended up in the Arabs giving Israel control of 78% of Palestine
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:07 AM   #10
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Somebody needs to study the dynamics of the tit-for-tat violence between Israel and the Palestinians. One side has everything to fight for, the other side has nothing to lose, and it seems to me that agitators on both sides seem bent on hatred and revenge. Thus, trying to assign blame is hardly going to lead to peace.

If instead the cycle of violence is analysed without the emotional and moral issues that make a solution seem intractable, it might be that even a simple step like both sides agreeing to delay retaliation would wind the cycle of violence down. As it stands now, both side are trying to punish the other, and that is a poor way to cause a change in behaviour: the punished associates the punishment not with their own behaviour but with the punisher, leading to hatred and defiance of punisher.
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Last edited by VulchR; Nov 19, 2012 at 02:50 PM. Reason: typo
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:45 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
I wasn't aware that the Israeli-Arab war in 1949 ended up in the Arabs giving Israel control of 78% of Palestine
yes, the Arab invasion of Palestine, intended to prevent the establishment of israel, was a flop that ended badly for them.....although syria and jordan kept parts of palestine for themselves. The armistice was based on the military positions when a cease-fire was finally implemented.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:45 AM   #12
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there can't be any peace since it's in neither sides interest to actually have peace since both get development funds/ financial help from outside countries

if those funds were cut for a year every single time one side attacks the other (for both sides) then the pressure from "civilians" to stop this stupid hostilities, once and for all, will pile up fast enough
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:50 AM   #13
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there can't be any peace since it's in neither sides interest to actually have peace since both get development funds/ financial help from outside countries...
part of the problem is that it's also outside countries that aren't interested in peace in this conflict
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:58 AM   #14
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Sooner or later someone will have to bear the burden of not retaliating ... of enduring strikes in order to achieve a lasting peace. IMO, that has to be the role for Israel to take if this cycle of violence is going to be resolved.
If they turn the other cheek it will promptly be blown-off.

Only strength will restrict Hamas from their stated goal, the 'elimination' of Israel as a Middle-Eastern country.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:00 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by NT1440 View Post
Thumb resize.
Somehow that card fails to show that Gaza was Egyptian and the Westbank Jordanian teritory before 67.

Israel now has control over 100% of what was consindered Palestine in 47 + some teritories given up by Egypt and Jordania later on.


Truth:
Hamas wants to destroy Israel

Also truth:
Lots of Israelies (mostly settlers) believe that all of Palestine (including the Westbank) is their god-given birthright and that those families who lived there for centuries have no rights at all (not even the right to live at all ...).

Those Israelies might be a minority but they do seem to have ultimate control over Israeli politics.

-> Nothings gonna change this century (and none of us will live long enough to see that nothing is gonna change in the next one).

Last edited by Bug-Creator; Nov 17, 2012 at 11:06 AM.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:36 AM   #16
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This will be used as the excuse for the USG to "take care of" the Iran problem.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:39 AM   #17
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This will be used as the excuse for the USG to "take care of" the Iran problem.
With the current level of political uncertainty in the middle east right now I seriously doubt the U.S. will use this as an excuse to flex it's muscle anywhere in the middle east.

Nope. Not gonna happen. Not this time.

It's my opinion that Egypt is itching to get into this mess.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:50 AM   #18
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It's my opinion that Egypt is itching to get into this mess.
You think so?

I think they are happy with the Gaza being a surrogate for them. They also love the money from weapons sales, no matter what crocodile tears they show to the contrary.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:52 AM   #19
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With the current level of political uncertainty in the middle east right now I seriously doubt the U.S. will use this as an excuse to flex it's muscle anywhere in the middle east.

Nope. Not gonna happen. Not this time.

It's my opinion that Egypt is itching to get into this mess.
I truly believe Israel ("our greatest ally!") is going to be the one to drag the USA, and therefore the world, into the next major world force event.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:56 AM   #20
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I truly believe Israel ("our greatest ally!") is going to be the one to drag the USA, and therefore the world, into the next major world force event.
You are right. But that won't happen for a few years and when it does the USA won't exist.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 12:03 PM   #21
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You are right. But that won't happen for a few years and when it does the USA won't exist.


I forsee Israel provoking an attack (however small) from Iran, at which point bound by our ally agreements, we will be sucked in to "defend".

Thats if the **** really hits the fan. Thank god for Iran's massive youth bulge (2/3 of the population is under 30) the vast majority of whom have nothing but contempt for the current regime and leadership styles.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 12:04 PM   #22
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You are right. But that won't happen for a few years and when it does the USA won't exist.
Sorry, I was just reading this thread and I don't get the bolded part at the end
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 12:09 PM   #23
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I forsee Israel provoking an attack (however small) from Iran, at which point bound by our ally agreements, we will be sucked in to "defend".

Thats if the **** really hits the fan. Thank god for Iran's massive youth bulge (2/3 of the population is under 30) the vast majority of whom have nothing but contempt for the current regime and leadership styles.
This scenario won't happen this time around. There will be a brokered cease-fire before Iran gets involved.

Now. Sometime in the future it will escalate into a full blown middle east crisis that will include many different countries. But the USA won't be one of them because imho the USA will no longer exist as a world power.

Personally I have a belief that the United States is Babylon. And Babylon will be destroyed.

Just my personal opinion. Not trying to force my personal religious beliefs on anyone.

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Old Nov 17, 2012, 12:22 PM   #24
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Nothing good can come from this.

Unless you like war.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 12:27 PM   #25
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If the US were to fall within the next few years, it wouldn't continue to be business as usual elsewhere. Thanks to globalization, the sudden disappearance of the United States would leave a giant vacuum that'd suck the entire world economy in along with it. You'd have riots the world over, the likely dissolution of the EU due to the sudden instability, famines, wars, fuel shortages, dogs and cats living together. It wouldn't be pretty. Israel would be the last thing on the western worlds mind. Though there probably would be a nice big mideastern insurrection that'd take it out as a sovereign country during those decades of chaos.

For the US to disappear as a world power without completely throwing the entire world out of whack, it'd take at least a 60 year slow decline to allow for enough time for another power to move in and take our place.
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