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Old Nov 17, 2012, 08:38 PM   #26
astrorider
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
How do taxes on incomes or dividends over $200,000 affect the poor?

Do you think the poor sock away over $2,500 in pre-tax funds for future medical needs?

Do you think the poor have "cadillac health care plans"?

How exactly do you think most of the middle class and especially the poor will be affected by the taxes you just mentioned?

hint: there's 10 bullet points there, only two of which are directed only to those making $200,000 or more. That's why I said "Several of the taxes in Obamacare phase in over the next couple years and will directly affect the middle class and the poor". Stop cherry picking the facts if you don't want to be so confused.

hint 2: as the article shows, the "cadillac health care plans" aren't being phased in until 2018 as a concession to Unions...not a group normally associated with being upper class. That should tell you something.

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Old Nov 17, 2012, 08:39 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
How do taxes on incomes or dividends over $200,000 affect the poor?

Do you think the poor sock away over $2,500 in pre-tax funds for future medical needs?

Do you think the poor have "cadillac health care plans"?

How exactly do you think most of the middle class and especially the poor will be affected by the taxes you just mentioned?

Careful Citizen, that 10% tax on indoor tanning services is going to stick it to the poor. No more trips to the tanning salon before their vacations in the South of France...
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 08:54 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by astrorider View Post
hint: there's 10 bullet points there, only two of which are directed only to those making $200,000 or more.
I tell you what, then.

Why don't you tell us which of those 10 points do affect the poor ... or your average middle class person?

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Careful Citizen, that 10% tax on indoor tanning services is going to stick it to the poor. No more trips to the tanning salon before their vacations in the South of France...
The poor do hate to visit the South of France without a good pre-tan.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:05 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I tell you what, then.

Why don't you tell us which of those 10 points do affect the poor ... or your average middle class person?
The other 8 can affect anyone making under $200,000. Why the eagerness to highlight and divide Americans by class? Would you like to now divide the middle class into "average middle class" and other categories to try to make your point? For what, so we can start vilifying certain parts of the middle class as well, for not being "average" enough?
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:35 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by astrorider View Post
The other 8 can affect anyone making under $200,000.
Let's take a look. Shall we?

Here are the point's listed in your linked article ...

A 3.8% surtax on "investment income" when your adjusted gross income is more than $200,000 ($250,000 for joint-filers).
Does not affect the poor or most middle class.

A 0.9% surtax on Medicare taxes for those making $200,000 or more ($250,000 joint).
Does not affect the poor or most middle class.

The itemized-deduction hurdle for medical expenses is going up to 10% of adjusted gross income. Right now, any medical expenses over 7.5% of AGI are deductible. Next year, that hurdle will be 10%.
Congratulations. This one may actually affect the middle class and poor.

The penalty on non-medical withdrawals from Healthcare Savings Accounts is now 20% instead of 10%. That's twice the penalty that applies to annuities, IRAs, and other tax-free vehicles.
Love to see how many middle class have Healthcare Savings Accounts. I doubt many poor do.

A tax of 10% on indoor tanning services. This has been in place for two years, since the summer of 2010.
Whatever

A 40% tax on "Cadillac Health Care Plans" starting in 2018.Those whose employers pay for all or most of comprehensive healthcare plans (costing $10,200 for an individual or $27,500 for families) will have to pay a 40% tax on the amount their employer pays.
Love to see how many middle class have Cadillac Health Care Plans. I doubt many poor do.

A"Medicine Cabinet Tax" that eliminates the ability to pay for over-the-counter medicines from a pre-tax Flexible Spending Account.
Love to see how many middle class have pre-tax Flexible Spending Accounts. I doubt many poor do.

A "penalty" tax for those who don't buy health insurance. This will phase in from 2014-2016. It will range from $695 per person to about $4,700 per person, depending on your income.
Congratulations. This one may actually affect the middle class and poor. [see quote below]

A tax on medical devices costing more than $100. Starting in 2013, medical device manufacturers will have to pay a 2.3% excise tax on medical equipment. This is expected to raise the cost of medical procedures.
Congratulations. This one may actually affect the middle class and poor.

At best I give you a 3 out of 9.

Though from what I've heard, the poor will be subsidized in ways to avoid penalties. Excerpt from an article in the Baltimore Sun ...

Quote:
How Obamacare will help the uninsured and unemployed
Woman struggles under $1,000 monthly medical bills

It depends on her income level," says Westcoat, "but if she's a single adult and makes $15,000 a year or less, she gets into Medicaid, starting in 2014. But if she makes more than that and doesn't have insurance, she can get into a health insurance exchange, and receive a subsidy. ... She'll be able to buy health insurance at a fraction of what she's paying now in medical bills."

And she won't have to worry about paying a tax penalty for not having insurance.

It's nonsense to even think about repealing a law that would make all that happen.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...ce-health-care
So in the end you might get a 2 out of 9.

And that ain't a passing grade.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:02 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Let's take a look. Shall we?

Here are the point's listed in your linked article ...

A 3.8% surtax on "investment income" when your adjusted gross income is more than $200,000 ($250,000 for joint-filers).
Does not affect the poor or most middle class.

A 0.9% surtax on Medicare taxes for those making $200,000 or more ($250,000 joint).
Does not affect the poor or most middle class.

The itemized-deduction hurdle for medical expenses is going up to 10% of adjusted gross income. Right now, any medical expenses over 7.5% of AGI are deductible. Next year, that hurdle will be 10%.
Congratulations. This one may actually affect the middle class and poor.

The penalty on non-medical withdrawals from Healthcare Savings Accounts is now 20% instead of 10%. That's twice the penalty that applies to annuities, IRAs, and other tax-free vehicles.
Love to see how many middle class have Healthcare Savings Accounts. I doubt many poor do.

A tax of 10% on indoor tanning services. This has been in place for two years, since the summer of 2010.
Whatever

A 40% tax on "Cadillac Health Care Plans" starting in 2018.Those whose employers pay for all or most of comprehensive healthcare plans (costing $10,200 for an individual or $27,500 for families) will have to pay a 40% tax on the amount their employer pays.
Love to see how many middle class have Cadillac Health Care Plans. I doubt many poor do.

A"Medicine Cabinet Tax" that eliminates the ability to pay for over-the-counter medicines from a pre-tax Flexible Spending Account.
Love to see how many middle class have pre-tax Flexible Spending Accounts. I doubt many poor do.

A "penalty" tax for those who don't buy health insurance. This will phase in from 2014-2016. It will range from $695 per person to about $4,700 per person, depending on your income.
Congratulations. This one may actually affect the middle class and poor. [see quote below]

A tax on medical devices costing more than $100. Starting in 2013, medical device manufacturers will have to pay a 2.3% excise tax on medical equipment. This is expected to raise the cost of medical procedures.
Congratulations. This one may actually affect the middle class and poor.

At best I give you a 3 out of 9.

Though from what I've heard, the poor will be subsidized in ways to avoid penalties. Excerpt from an article in the Baltimore Sun ...



So in the end you might get a 2 out of 9.

And that ain't a passing grade.
So you conjecture ("Love to see how many are affected by...") that several of those items won't affect the poor or "average middle class", to allow you to get down to 2 out of 9 that do, when the original point was that Obamacare does increase taxes on the poor or middle class. Congratulations on proving my point?

Your scorecard is most certainly under counted anyway. I certainly know middle class families, my own included, that will be hit by these changes. And you're still ignoring that delaying the taxes on "cadillac health plans" until 2018 was a concession to Unions (i.e. not upper class). After all, if these weren't significant tax increases and only affected a small group, how are the costs of Obamacare being covered?

BTW, I'm fine with you believing these are worthwhile additional taxes on the poor and middle class for a noble law, if that's your contention. Just be honest and don't pretend it comes at no cost.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:08 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by astrorider View Post
BTW, I'm fine with you believing these are worthwhile additional taxes on the poor and middle class for a noble law, if that's your contention. Just be honest and don't pretend it comes at no cost.
I have no idea what the real cost will be.

And neither do you.

Let's find out.

Shall we?
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:22 PM   #33
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I have no idea what the real cost will be.

And neither do you.

Let's find out.

Shall we?
I wish you were talking about something besides 1/5th of the US economy. I think a friend of mine in high school said something similar after we found the bottle of Bacardi 151 in his parent's liquor cabinet.

Him: I have no idea what it'll be like.
Me: Me neither.
Him: Let's find out.
Me: Why not.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:33 PM   #34
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The whole idea that the Republican party is doomed because the Democrats won by a VERY SLIM margin is not grounded in reality.

There is no shortage of politically conservative voters out there and the Republican party is doing just fine. I live in a hard red state, and fortunately for me it gives me the opportunity to vote my heart rather than vote a party line. I paid almost zero attention to the presidential race because I knew I would be voting for Jill Stein. But I did see part of an interview with the Republican VP candidate who spoke on his religious beliefs.

Romney came so close and when I think of his platform of "conservative values" that included access to my womb, I still get the fear. I see no reason to rejoice or gloat, it was just too close and the issues were too important for me.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:38 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by astrorider View Post
I wish you were talking about something besides 1/5th of the US economy. I think a friend of mine in high school said something similar after we found the bottle of Bacardi 151 in his parent's liquor cabinet.

Him: I have no idea what it'll be like.
Me: Me neither.
Him: Let's find out.
Me: Why not.
Of course, you are conveniently forgetting that we tried the free market healthcare route and watched prices rise at astronomical rates. It is easy to talk about handouts for votes without looking at the reality that average people are really impacted by current medical costs and Obamacare provides an attempt to deal with that conundrum.

So we already drank the bottle of 151 over the past few decades, and we're dealing with the hangover. Obamacare is an attempt at a cure. Perfect? No. An attempt to make progress? Yes. Time will tell how good or bad, but we already tried the alternative.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 02:12 AM   #36
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The whole idea that the Republican party is doomed because the Democrats won by a VERY SLIM margin is not grounded in reality.
The difference is that all the groups who are highly Democratic are growing.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 10:04 AM   #37
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The difference is that all the groups who are highly Democratic are growing.
I must have missed that, do you have a source? I honestly would be interested. I just don't see it.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 10:12 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post

The penalty on non-medical withdrawals from Healthcare Savings Accounts is now 20% instead of 10%. That's twice the penalty that applies to annuities, IRAs, and other tax-free vehicles.
Love to see how many middle class have Healthcare Savings Accounts. I doubt many poor do.


A 40% tax on "Cadillac Health Care Plans" starting in 2018.Those whose employers pay for all or most of comprehensive healthcare plans (costing $10,200 for an individual or $27,500 for families) will have to pay a 40% tax on the amount their employer pays.
Love to see how many middle class have Cadillac Health Care Plans. I doubt many poor do.

A"Medicine Cabinet Tax" that eliminates the ability to pay for over-the-counter medicines from a pre-tax Flexible Spending Account.
Love to see how many middle class have pre-tax Flexible Spending Accounts. I doubt many poor do.

I removed a good part of the post only to leave the ones I disagree with.

First the HSA I would say many middle class have it. If you have health insurance it is a smart idea to get some of it. Try is knowing how to use it correctly. If used correctly it should be a non issue for any one so I would just toss it out that one completely and just write it off to encouraging people to use the HSA correctly (in the end non issue)

The 2nd one with Cadillac Health Care Plans plans. That one might hit the middle class depending on who you work for. Companies do not tend to offer different health care to their higher ups and to there line workers so to speak. Everyone is offered either the same great plan or the same POS. if you work for the oil companies (many of the employees are middle class) they run the risk of getting slammed by this. Big oil offers really damn nice health care plans. This made worse by the fact that health care cost are going up. Now health care cost going up is not Obamacare fault. That is more of the fault that Obamacare does nothing to address an already out of control rising cost there.

3rd. This one where HSA can not be used to pay for OTC I think is crap. Sorry but really HSA should be allowed to pay for OTC. It is some very basic health care stuff.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 10:22 AM   #39
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Of course, you are conveniently forgetting that we tried the free market healthcare route and watched prices rise at astronomical rates. It is easy to talk about handouts for votes without looking at the reality that average people are really impacted by current medical costs and Obamacare provides an attempt to deal with that conundrum.

So we already drank the bottle of 151 over the past few decades, and we're dealing with the hangover. Obamacare is an attempt at a cure. Perfect? No. An attempt to make progress? Yes. Time will tell how good or bad, but we already tried the alternative.
You do realize that Medicare and Medicaid are not free market and they have been around for decades? They make up a large part of the healthcare market.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 10:25 AM   #40
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I've heard that Medicare fraud is rampant. My impression is that focusing on Medicare/aid fraud would help the budget situation greatly.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 10:25 AM   #41
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I must have missed that, do you have a source? I honestly would be interested. I just don't see it.
Latinos are clearly growing, as are young voters, those with university educations and career women, do you really need a source for that?
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 10:29 AM   #42
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I removed a good part of the post only to leave the ones I disagree with.
It all comes down to how you define the question, which astrorider original claimed would "directly affect the middle class and the poor".

If that claim is based on at least one middle-class and poor person will be affected, then all of the statements are most likely true.

If that claim is based at a substantial number of the middle-class and poor will be affected, then some of the statements are most likely true.

If that claim is based at a majority of the middle-class and poor will be affected, then almost all of the statements are most likely false.

Astrorider would have been better served by substituting "or" for "and" and claiming, "directly affect the middle class or the poor". This would have increased the number cases where his claim could be found true.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 11:19 AM   #43
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If the GOP continues down the path it is currently on, they will never win another election. The USA is reaching a Majority-Minority when it comes to race, cultures, etc. The white population, the GOP's largest supporter, is dwindling every year. The GOP needs to kick out all the old white dudes who are still stuck in a 1950s mindset, and get with the times. Also, the tea party, get rid of that. Now.

Furthermore, the GOP needs to stop it with this "Pro-life" ****. They're only pro-life when the baby is still inside the mother, once it's born, they're no longer pro-life. On the topic of Gay Marriage... big mistake not to support it anymore. 49% of US Americans support marriage equality, 40% oppose (source: PEW Research Center). Also, they need need to stop running their elections on the the whole, "We love God and Jesus!!!!!!!!11!!!!ONE!!!111" stance. Americans are beginning to leave the church.

On a final note. The GOP needs their own Messiah. Preferably someone who is less than 45 years old, isn't in the back pocket of the nations largest corporations and isn't ignorant of todays social issues.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 12:29 PM   #44
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Latinos are clearly growing, as are young voters, those with university educations and career women, do you really need a source for that?
Yes. Because I know plenty people from those groups who vote republican. This election was no where near the landslide demo rates are playing it out to be. Liberals barely squeezed back in, and a big part of that had to do with who the republicans ran.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 12:33 PM   #45
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Back to the OP...

The Republican party is no more doomed today than the Democrat party was 2 years ago after historic losses in congressional seats.

The two-party system is very strong and not easily dethroned. Each party constantly adapts and manipulates the populous into believing there are bigger differences between the two than there really are.

Don't expect any big changes soon I'm afraid. Government will continue to grow this century, just like last... all the while our liberties are on the wane as it has been throughout history.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yeild, and government to gain ground." - Thomas Jefferson
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 12:34 PM   #46
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Yes. Because I know plenty people from those groups who vote republican. This election was no where near the landslide demo rates are playing it out to be. Liberals barely squeezed back in, and a big part of that had to do with who the republicans ran.
Obama won by 3,476,775 votes and 126 electoral votes. I don't call that a squeaker... If you're talking about local and state races, maybe.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 12:39 PM   #47
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Yes. Because I know plenty people from those groups who vote republican.
Anecdote != Data.

From Fox News:

Quote:
The Latino Decisions polls indicate that nationwide and in battleground states Obama won Latino voter support over Romney by historic margins – 72 percent to 23 percent nationwide
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/pol...linching-ohio/

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBazz View Post
and a big part of that had to do with who the republicans ran.
So who exactly should the Republicans have run?
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 12:47 PM   #48
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And in 2004 the Latino vote helped put Bush back in office. Most Latinos are socially conservative and patriotic, run the right republican candidate and they will vote for him.

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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
Anecdote != Data.

From Fox News:



http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/pol...linching-ohio/



So who exactly should the Republicans have run?
Fox News is not data.

And I would never presume to say who another party "should" run. But by running Romney they defeated their own selves. Some of their own party strong holds wouldn't vote for him.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 12:59 PM   #49
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But by running Romney they defeated their own selves. Some of their own party strong holds wouldn't vote for him.
I agree that Romney was a weak candidate. But he was about a centrist as any of the other Republican nominees in the running. If the "party strong holds" had their way, they'd have put forth an even more conservative candidate, who would have still lost the election and probably by a wider margin.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 01:01 PM   #50
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I've heard that Medicare fraud is rampant. My impression is that focusing on Medicare/aid fraud would help the budget situation greatly.
I don't have figures but while $ amounts are large, when taken as a percentage of total spending it's quite small, I believe.
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