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Old Nov 20, 2012, 07:36 AM   #126
experimenthouse
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I plan to purchase the 27" iMac when it becomes available, and while I understand the desire many users will have for an optical drive, my experience with Apple's internal drives hasn't been particular good.

My current Mac (an ancient MDD 2003) has not had any problems with the replacement Pioneer and Samsung DL burners I replaced the Apple drives with. The slot-loading drives seem to fail pretty regularly too.

In my experience, getting third party drives is both cheaper and more reliable.

I've just finished a music degree, and they still require you to burn media from time to time. It's a pain, but most universities are moving away from optical media thankfully, and more towards network storage.

I really don't think it's a big deal removing an optical drive that could fail easily, and even getting it replaced under warranty will put your Mac out of action for a while. I'm looking forward to being able to use my old drives and knowing I can replace them cheaply and easily if they break.

Another thing I think people are forgetting is that you can use CD/DVD sharing to access the drive of another Mac if you network them together (which is what I plan to do). If you've already got a Mac running Leopard (or higher) just use its drive to read/write media.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 08:05 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by macs4nw View Post
Hear, hear.....I could be way off on this one, but I haven't heard throngs of people clamoring for thinner iMacs; in fact, I haven't even heard ONE person express that desire. I have however read many posts in some threads here, where many users have expressed a desire for desk-top class CPU's, and better GPU's in their iMacs, thinner bezels, 'chin-less' design, or more memory, standard. Sleek and sexy as the new machines may look in a side profile, you don't get to see that at all, when sitting in front of the screen.

Personally, we DO use the optical drive regularly for watching DVDs or burning CDs for the car. So except for Ivy Bridge and Fusion drives (on which the jury is still out btw), the new iMacs have little to offer me over the old models. Call me a luddite, but I'm seriously considering picking up a maxed-out 27" 2011 iMac, or if need be, a refurb.
I hear you on that. I really do.

Apple has never done what they necessarily think the people want, but instead choosing to do what they think the industry needs. They're always trying to stay in front of the pack with regards to how people use computers.

Was it necessarily the right choice? Maybe not. But people said the same thing about floppy drives. Only time will tell if it was the right move.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 09:25 AM   #128
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I think what's happening is that these things are so hard to manufacture that there is a 90 percent reject rate. Apple wants to make it seem like they haven't missed their deadline, so they'll pull a few non-duds from the test production line and get then into the hands of a few early orderers/bloggers and make sure that some unboxing videos get up on YouTube. But most customers will have to wait until next year. As far as I'm concerned, this means that the French blog was right, and Apple is trying to escape under a technicality.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 12:29 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Jetson View Post
What I mean by commercial content is NOT just programs and/or data, but also music (CDs), TV and Movies (DVDs).
That's why I said "computer-oriented content".

And while premium formats (1080p) still demand optical media (BluRay), the audience is moving away from physical media for relatively lower bitrate content like CDs and DVDs. The main issue sustaining content on those is licensing and diminishing ownership behavior. I only buy physical media with content I want to _own_ now, and rent only recent stuff I want to see in HD; as I age, I've processed so much content my physical library is getting problematic as I have little interest in going thru that content again, however much I liked it.

I had this discussion with a bunch of people at work over lunch. Most of us expressed a continuing preference for physical media, but admitted that was getting burensome. The youngest in the group (a recent PhD grad, so not all that young) just stared at us for a while, then opined that she hadn't bought anything on disc for at least 10 years.

Unless the content is limited to physical media via licensing issues, or is just so massive downloading is impractical, the market is moving toward streaming.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 12:41 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by toke lahti View Post
Are also RAM, large + fast + affordable storages or any kind of upgradeability or repairability "way down"?
Trending that way, yes.

RAM: the iOS memory model relies on being able to stop/start apps fast, requiring less RAM. This behavior is drifting into desktop territory.

Storage: "cloud" storage is reducing the need for local storage. As this takes hold, users will be less compelled to purchase big drives to mitigate the "device full" problem. Google wants to store everything, all versions, for you forever; Apple wants to ensure at least one copy is on one of your devices; Amazon is offering serious archiving. Need space? clear an app, you can download it again later; cache old data to the cloud.

Upgradability: most users never upgrade. If they do, it's memory as a stopgap. The price of computers in real value is dropping; an entry-level IBM PC was about $6000 in today's dollars, with inferior performance to today's $25 Raspberry Pi, and about a millionth of the capability of a rMBP. As such, and with continuing improvements, it just makes more sense to replace than upgrade in most cases.

Repairability: components, when optimized to the degree that Apple's are, have become so specialized and expensive that it's likewise becoming feasible to just replace the whole thing. Instead of decking out a great many repair shops, Apple can/will "repair" your epoxy block by just copying data storage onto a new unit and hand that to you, and send that block back to a central high-efficiency repair facility - that's an enormous improvement of the repair supply chain.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 12:45 PM   #131
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We all get that CD/DVD/Bluray are all going to die. That's for sure.
But we all know that they are not dead just yet.

We all know that most of us did not insert a disk into a drive very often on the last few years. But some of us still need it. For example, medical imaging (CT, MRI images) are given to patients in CD/DVDs. And physicians (including myself) will need to access these images in a optical drive.

My point is: Isn't it nice to know that even if you don't need something, you can still have it just in case? Even if you don't need a car, isn't it nice to know that there is one at your garage, just in case?

Apple hates blu-ray, and wants us to get content from iTunes. That's why they are killing the optical drive. Ok, I know we can buy a SD and plug to the iMac, but that's not the point of the iMac great design.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 01:02 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
When the "choose not to use" population becomes the majority it doesn't make sense to make the majority buy something they don't intend to use just to serve the needs of smaller subset.
My sediments exactly. A dismishing population of optical media users demanding the rest of us be forced to buy an obsolete feature so the minority doesn't have to be inconvenienced. I can't, for the life, of me understand how people can be so narrow minded. "I want it therefore EVERONE wants it." - what a ridiculous arguement.

I've not been using optical for a while. I was disappointed when my 2009 iMac still had one - how archaic. I haven't bought software on physical media in like 8 years or more.

For the record - I work for a large company, and I see NO ONE exchanging optical media. Email, network sharepoints, VPN...worst-last-case is on USB drive, and that's a rarity. AND my daughter is in college, and if her assignments are accepted electronically, its via email, never removalable storage.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 04:31 PM   #133
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So.....what day are we looking on for release?
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 06:47 PM   #134
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It'll be Black Friday. Nov. 23rd.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 07:34 AM   #135
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Apple Store (AU) seems to be updating right now. Good sign for the 21.5" perhaps…
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 07:56 AM   #136
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Apple Store (AU) seems to be updating right now. Good sign for the 21.5" perhaps…
or updating for black friday
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 10:06 AM   #137
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I Wanted The New iMac But...

how do you burn music from your itunes that you want to play in your auto?

I have a MyPassport but that won't get me around the need for an Optical.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 04:13 PM   #138
toke lahti
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Originally Posted by ctdonath View Post
Trending that way, yes.

RAM: the iOS memory model relies on being able to stop/start apps fast, requiring less RAM. This behavior is drifting into desktop territory.

Storage: "cloud" storage is reducing the need for local storage. As this takes hold, users will be less compelled to purchase big drives to mitigate the "device full" problem. Google wants to store everything, all versions, for you forever; Apple wants to ensure at least one copy is on one of your devices; Amazon is offering serious archiving. Need space? clear an app, you can download it again later; cache old data to the cloud.

Upgradability: most users never upgrade. If they do, it's memory as a stopgap. The price of computers in real value is dropping; an entry-level IBM PC was about $6000 in today's dollars, with inferior performance to today's $25 Raspberry Pi, and about a millionth of the capability of a rMBP. As such, and with continuing improvements, it just makes more sense to replace than upgrade in most cases.

Repairability: components, when optimized to the degree that Apple's are, have become so specialized and expensive that it's likewise becoming feasible to just replace the whole thing. Instead of decking out a great many repair shops, Apple can/will "repair" your epoxy block by just copying data storage onto a new unit and hand that to you, and send that block back to a central high-efficiency repair facility - that's an enormous improvement of the repair supply chain.
All these signs are just planned obsolescence and even they are "in fashion" does not mean they are in any way good or desirable.
Nevertheless when treating something "old fashioned" is just plain trick to sell something similiar or even worse from your own production.
ODD is "dead" because you should buy things from iTunes.
Expandable storage is "so last year" when "the insanely cool thing" is to buy Time Capsule for your time machine backups.
Etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marzer View Post
My sediments exactly. A dismishing population of optical media users demanding the rest of us be forced to buy an obsolete feature so the minority doesn't have to be inconvenienced. I can't, for the life, of me understand how people can be so narrow minded. "I want it therefore EVERONE wants it." - what a ridiculous arguement.

I've not been using optical for a while. I was disappointed when my 2009 iMac still had one - how archaic. I haven't bought software on physical media in like 8 years or more.

For the record - I work for a large company, and I see NO ONE exchanging optical media. Email, network sharepoints, VPN...worst-last-case is on USB drive, and that's a rarity. AND my daughter is in college, and if her assignments are accepted electronically, its via email, never removalable storage.
This.

Maybe you are not working with visual things too big for email or with people that don't spend huge amounts to IT infrastructure.

Maybe you don't understand that most of bought digital content on this planet is still in optical media and will be for years.

And when some day electrical distribution overcomes, there's still majority of people, who don't want to buy same content again in another format. Most not-geeky people I know are not buying online movies they already have on dvd and/or throw those "archaic" dvd's to trashcan or they don't want to have all the trouble to rip them to hdd or cloud and to the other one for backup, since they already have those movies on their shelf and they don't have to do anything to them.

I just don't get how people think that if their computer has some feature they don't use, it would be somehow better if the feature is taken off. I can understand that many people want their laptops as light as possible, but taking away features from desktops is never ending game. You can always find features that somebody don't use. And continuing to make products "simplier" all the time will some day make a gap between what user wants too wide.
Surprisingly Apple corrects their mistakes from time to time. Archaic firewire was put back, when they started loosing sales. Hdmi was installed when fighting against it didn't succeed.
I just hope someday we will have a real xMac and a laptop with real modularity and expandability. Giving these options doesn't mean most of us would have to use them. 17" matte retina screen would be nice with expresscard slot even with thunderbolt with amazing prices and availability.
Also maybe it could be possible to have a headless mac with discreet GPU with less than $2k price?

How an earth ODD in imac would make it worse than one without it?
Do you also need to use every socket on the back?
Having nightmares of not using the whole storage, RAM & cpu cycles you could?
Looks like Apple's products are now only for people who need to think if un-cool features make their computer bad. I'm used to think that computers are just technical tools, but maybe I need to consider again...
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 08:32 PM   #139
Slackula
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Wow

So Black Friday will come and go without anyone across the globe being able to order an iMac (other than a refurb) at Apple's online store? I can describe that in three words: Un Be Lievable.
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 05:12 AM   #140
toke lahti
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So Black Friday will come and go without anyone across the globe being able to order an iMac (other than a refurb) at Apple's online store? I can describe that in three words: Un Be Lievable.
Just shows how important desktop macs are to Apple.
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 06:58 AM   #141
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Theres still 7 days left till the end of november, I'm as gutted as anyone else, I'm back to work tomorrow for 7 days, so if they do come out with preorders for the 27" then theres a good chance I wont be in the mix for being one of the first in the queue, hence probably waiting after the new year for one.
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 09:45 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by toke lahti View Post
All these signs are just planned obsolescence and even they are "in fashion" does not mean they are in any way good or desirable.
Nevertheless when treating something "old fashioned" is just plain trick to sell something similiar or even worse from your own production.
ODD is "dead" because you should buy things from iTunes.
Expandable storage is "so last year" when "the insanely cool thing" is to buy Time Capsule for your time machine backups.
Etc.


This.

Maybe you are not working with visual things too big for email or with people that don't spend huge amounts to IT infrastructure.

Maybe you don't understand that most of bought digital content on this planet is still in optical media and will be for years.

And when some day electrical distribution overcomes, there's still majority of people, who don't want to buy same content again in another format. Most not-geeky people I know are not buying online movies they already have on dvd and/or throw those "archaic" dvd's to trashcan or they don't want to have all the trouble to rip them to hdd or cloud and to the other one for backup, since they already have those movies on their shelf and they don't have to do anything to them.

I just don't get how people think that if their computer has some feature they don't use, it would be somehow better if the feature is taken off. I can understand that many people want their laptops as light as possible, but taking away features from desktops is never ending game. You can always find features that somebody don't use. And continuing to make products "simplier" all the time will some day make a gap between what user wants too wide.
Surprisingly Apple corrects their mistakes from time to time. Archaic firewire was put back, when they started loosing sales. Hdmi was installed when fighting against it didn't succeed.
I just hope someday we will have a real xMac and a laptop with real modularity and expandability. Giving these options doesn't mean most of us would have to use them. 17" matte retina screen would be nice with expresscard slot even with thunderbolt with amazing prices and availability.
Also maybe it could be possible to have a headless mac with discreet GPU with less than $2k price?

How an earth ODD in imac would make it worse than one without it?
Do you also need to use every socket on the back?
Having nightmares of not using the whole storage, RAM & cpu cycles you could?
Looks like Apple's products are now only for people who need to think if un-cool features make their computer bad. I'm used to think that computers are just technical tools, but maybe I need to consider again...
I'm sorry, but you are complaining about the inevitable here,

yes they have removed the ODD,

yes I agree with you that optical storage will be around for a long while, and I do not intend to re-buy my film/music library.

yeah its a pain, I myself like to record my own music and give copies away,

but,

if you're paying that much for a desktop machine then buy the superdrive, you can then either hide it out of sight or put it away until needed. As for items to big for email then perhaps a flash drive with encryption would be better suited for you?

At the end of the day, Apple has made its move, if you don't like it then there is nothing stopping you going for another brand or even sticking to what you have.....I don't feel its a big enough deal them binning it to change brands for me personally.
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Old Nov 24, 2012, 07:04 PM   #143
DitteVilladsen
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Available in November, December?

Well, it's November 25 and there's no iMac. I think it's clear that there have been production problems. If Apple from the beginning had planned to release the iMac 21-5 inched in the last few days of November, would they have said "Available in November"? I don't think so. They would have said "Available at the end of November," or "Available before December" or something. Why set themselves up for ridicule?

I suppose the 27 inched is going to come out on New Year's Eve at this rate.

And who knows what sort of version 1.0 issues these first few shipments will have?

What is interesting now is how much Apple will BS us about the release date. Will a flood of 21.5 inters start shipping next week, worldwide? Or will a few go out and most orders remain unfulfilled, with store shelves bare, in order to qualify on a purely technical basis for a November shipment? There is precedent for this trick, with 5th generation iPod touches to this day extremely hard to actually track down and buy in Japan.
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Old Nov 25, 2012, 12:45 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by DitteVilladsen View Post
Well, it's November 25 and there's no iMac. I think it's clear that there have been production problems. If Apple from the beginning had planned to release the iMac 21-5 inched in the last few days of November, would they have said "Available in November"? I don't think so. They would have said "Available at the end of November," or "Available before December" or something. Why set themselves up for ridicule?

I suppose the 27 inched is going to come out on New Year's Eve at this rate.

And who knows what sort of version 1.0 issues these first few shipments will have?

What is interesting now is how much Apple will BS us about the release date. Will a flood of 21.5 inters start shipping next week, worldwide? Or will a few go out and most orders remain unfulfilled, with store shelves bare, in order to qualify on a purely technical basis for a November shipment? There is precedent for this trick, with 5th generation iPod touches to this day extremely hard to actually track down and buy in Japan.
Lets be honest here, I think firstly Apple was in a no-win situation here, as soon as everyone knew the Imac would not be immidiatelly available.

However, technically its still November and we still have a Tuesday and a November left. Until we do have December, Apple has done nothing majorly wrong here imho. Would I have loved to have a new Imac already? Of course, but whoever was thinking (not hoping) it would be available earlier than the last week, would have been stupid.

Everything else is pure speculation, especially in regards to what will be available, when and where... so here is a simple advise: Just wait and see!

And if Apple fails to deliver the Imac in November.... So what? Happens... happens all the time in business. Of course Apple will have to face the consequences but its funny how people here think their thinking is much better than the thinking and actioning of the Apple management. Like they are doing it on purpose....

I guess everyone should calm down a bit. There are plenty of other computers available so its only up to 1 single person here: YOU (as in all people )

Wait and shut up or buy something else.

I am waiting
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Old Nov 25, 2012, 06:18 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Mic2904 View Post

I am waiting
Aye, aye! Me too... Lets wander later and after November
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Old Nov 25, 2012, 08:58 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Mic2904 View Post
Lets be honest here, I think firstly Apple was in a no-win situation here, as soon as everyone knew the Imac would not be immidiatelly available.

However, technically its still November and we still have a Tuesday and a November left. Until we do have December, Apple has done nothing majorly wrong here imho. Would I have loved to have a new Imac already? Of course, but whoever was thinking (not hoping) it would be available earlier than the last week, would have been stupid.

Everything else is pure speculation, especially in regards to what will be available, when and where... so here is a simple advise: Just wait and see!

And if Apple fails to deliver the Imac in November.... So what? Happens... happens all the time in business. Of course Apple will have to face the consequences but its funny how people here think their thinking is much better than the thinking and actioning of the Apple management. Like they are doing it on purpose....

I guess everyone should calm down a bit. There are plenty of other computers available so its only up to 1 single person here: YOU (as in all people )

Wait and shut up or buy something else.

I am waiting
I'm sure inside at Apple, they are as displeased with the delay as we are. Apple is still at the mercy of it's suppliers and outside manufacturing forces. Having a mainstream product absent from retailers shelves for extended weeks around holiday time is a big problem in any retailers eyes.
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Old Nov 25, 2012, 09:34 AM   #147
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Apple hates blu-ray, and wants us to get content from iTunes. That's why they are killing the optical drive. Ok, I know we can buy a SD and plug to the iMac, but that's not the point of the iMac great design.
Excellent post. Apple is removing the optical drive for one reason, to benefit themselves, not the end user. It is another step toward controlling where you can buy your content.
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Old Nov 25, 2012, 06:50 PM   #148
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Excellent post. Apple is removing the optical drive for one reason, to benefit themselves, not the end user. It is another step toward controlling where you can buy your content.
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Old Nov 25, 2012, 07:06 PM   #149
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Excellent post. Apple is removing the optical drive for one reason, to benefit themselves, not the end user. It is another step toward controlling where you can buy your content.
But a thinner desktop so you can take it with you to Starbucks!
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Old Nov 25, 2012, 07:19 PM   #150
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i hope apple is able to ship when they said they would. however, if they aren't ready, then please don't ship products that have a high chance of failure. hopefully they are ready and everything will go smooth
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