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Old Dec 16, 2012, 07:53 PM   #1
aristobrat
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Concealed weapon owner confronted Oregon mall shooter

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Nick Meli is emotionally drained. The 22-year-old was at Clackamas Town Center with a friend and her baby when a masked man opened fire.

"I heard three shots and turned and looked at Casey and said, 'are you serious?,'" he said.

The friend and baby hit the floor. Meli, who has a concealed carry permit, positioned himself behind a pillar.

"He was working on his rifle," said Meli. "He kept pulling the charging handle and hitting the side."

The break in gunfire allowed Meli to pull out his own gun, but he never took his eyes off the shooter.

"As I was going down to pull, I saw someone in the back of the Charlotte move, and I knew if I fired and missed, I could hit them," he said.

Meli took cover inside a nearby store. He never pulled the trigger. He stands by that decision.

"I'm not beating myself up cause I didn't shoot him," said Meli. "I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself."

The gunman was dead, but not before taking two innocent lives with him and taking the innocence of everyone else.

"I don't ever want to see anyone that way ever," said Meli. "It just bothers me."
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-ma...183593571.html

Who knows if his actions had any affect on the outcome, but someone in the other thread wanted to know where the proverbial person 'with the concealed weapon' was.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 10:29 AM   #2
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That part about knowing your background is huge. I have been taught this since day one. Excellent choice not to shoot since there was a possibility to hurt someone else.

I say kudos to him.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 10:42 AM   #3
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So basically he did next to nothing, or am I missing something?
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 10:44 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Happybunny View Post
So basically he did next to nothing, or am I missing something?
I guess it's showing that not all CCW people are crazy cowboys.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 10:51 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by lannister80 View Post
I guess it's showing that not all CCW people are crazy cowboys.

Don't understand.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lannister80 View Post
I guess it's showing that not all CCW people are crazy cowboys.
Sorry,Don't bother, I see it now Conceal Carry Weapon, just had a dim moment.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 10:52 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Happybunny View Post
So basically he did next to nothing, or am I missing something?
It's possible that if the shooter noticed that someone else was armed and ready, that he then decided that it was time to go ahead and kill himself as planned before someone else got to do it?

The shooter then (presumably) didn't kill anyone else but himself, and shots from the CCW holder were not necessary.

Nobody knows exactly though, and that's not the point. The point is that someone with a CCW was present, and decided to take action.

The point is that because of our laws, there was at least a deterrent present, one that at the very least could have drawn fire and occupied the shooter's attention until police arrived (as happened in the 2007 Salt Lake City mall shooting).

The point is, this guy was there, ready to intervene if necessary. And he realized that doing so initially wouldn't be safe and so he choose not to fire.

Some people here have claimed that CCW holders would serve no purpose except to harm others in the crossfire and I think this is an excellent rebuttal to that claim.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 10:53 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aristobrat View Post
Who knows if his actions had any affect on the outcome, but someone in the other thread wanted to know where the proverbial person 'with the concealed weapon' was.
It's not as if we don't know they're "out there".

And one day someone will stop a shooter .. that I'm sure is inevitable.

The question IMO is whether on balance putting more concealed weapons in the hands of more people is a positive or a negative thing.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 10:56 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by SLC Flyfishing View Post
It's possible that if the shooter noticed that someone else was armed and ready, that he then decided that it was time to go ahead and kill himself as planned before someone else got to do it?

The shooter then (presumably) didn't kill anyone else but himself, and shots from the CCW holder were not necessary.

Nobody knows exactly though, and that's not the point. The point is that someone with a CCW was present, and decided to take action.

The point is that because of our laws, there was at least a deterrent present, one that at the very least could have drawn fire and occupied the shooter's attention until police arrived (as happened in the 2007 Salt Lake City mall shooting).

The point is, this guy was there, ready to intervene if necessary. And he realized that doing so initially wouldn't be safe and so he choose not to fire.

Some people here have claimed that CCW holders would serve no purpose except to harm others in the crossfire and I think this is an excellent rebuttal to that claim.
Thank you for your input.

I do think that you will make your point, when and if a CCW ever does stop a major shooting spree.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 10:59 AM   #9
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I just completed my Oregon CCW training. There is a huge focus on paying attention to what you could hit if you miss. There's also a lot of instruction on when deadly force is authorized and when it isn't. This is why CCW holders will very rarely open fire.

IMO the world would be a better place if many more people were armed. Right now I don't even have a handgun to conceal; I sold my Beretta 92FS because it was too big and heavy. I'm trying to decide between a Glock 37 and a Bersa Ultra-Compact, both in the .45 variety.

Rob
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:02 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happybunny View Post
Thank you for your input.

I do think that you will make your point, when and if a CCW ever does stop a major shooting spree.
How do you know that wasn't the case here?
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:08 AM   #11
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How do you know that wasn't the case here?
We don't but we only have his word for it. In the military you cannot call yourself a hero, and claim a medal, others have to do that.
I would be more interested if there were more independent people pushing for this persons hero status.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see one of these spree killers taken out. But as yet I don't think that there is enough evidence to say this was the one.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:16 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Rob.G View Post
IMO the world would be a better place if many more people were armed.
I have to disagree.

I think the American society would be a better place if more people were not armed.

Just as the world would be a better place with fewer nuclear bombs.

Putting life-threatening devices in the hands of more people makes no sense to me.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:20 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Rob.G View Post
I'm trying to decide between a Glock 37 and a Bersa Ultra-Compact, both in the .45 variety.

Rob
If you have the money, why not get both? I say the more the merrier.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:21 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Happybunny View Post
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see one of these spree killers taken out. But as yet I don't think that there is enough evidence to say this was the one.
How can you have evidence of the absence of something?

i.e. How can you say that the shooter would have killed more, had he not seen someone else with a gun?

I don't think it will be a clear link to people until someone on a shooting spree is actually taken down by someone with a CCW in the middle of their rampage, but that totally disregards the impact of the possible presence of another armed person giving the shooter pause.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouslurker View Post
How can you have evidence of the absence of something?

i.e. How can you say that the shooter would have killed more, had he not seen someone else with a gun?

I don't think it will be a clear link to people until someone on a shooting spree is actually taken down by someone with a CCW in the middle of their rampage, but that totally disregards the impact of the possible presence of another armed person giving the shooter pause.
I state it again we only have his word for any of this, that in my book is not enough to make him a hero.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:30 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
It's not as if we don't know they're "out there".
FWIW, I started the thread as a response to this particular post, where IMO the poster really didn't think there was one "out there", therefore concluding that concealed carry weapons do not ever help.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:31 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Happybunny View Post
I state it again we only have his word for any of this, that in my book is not enough to make him a hero.
You are the only one who has mentioned the word "hero." It's not about that at all.

My point is that the presence of another armed person may (or may not) have reduced the number of victims from what it possibly could have been, had there not been another armed person.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:31 AM   #18
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I have a friend through business who was special forces in the military, runs his own training programs for law enforcement, and continues as a special consultant to the military. With all that said, even he is generally against the idea of people firing back in these kinds of situations. In all of his experience in combat zones around the world, he has learned that very, very few people, even those with extensive training, can actually pull off an accurate shot under stress.

Arming more and more people as a deterrent to these kind of events is exactly the opposite of what needs to happen.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:33 AM   #19
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I state it again we only have his word for any of this, that in my book is not enough to make him a hero.
Which is fine, as he doesn't want the attention nor the title.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:48 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by aristobrat View Post
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-ma...183593571.html

Who knows if his actions had any affect on the outcome, but someone in the other thread wanted to know where the proverbial person 'with the concealed weapon' was.
What would have been even better is if *neither* the shooter nor the CCW holder were allowed to have weapons. Then, there would be no weapons at the mall which is the preferred state in my opinion.

Besides, if the CCW holder had indeed fired his weapon, he might have ended up killed by the cops or sitting in jail.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:58 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by anonymouslurker View Post
...I don't think it will be a clear link to people until someone on a shooting spree is actually taken down by someone with a CCW in the middle of their rampage, but that totally disregards the impact of the possible presence of another armed person giving the shooter pause.
Does this qualify?

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"On February 12, 2007, at 6:44 PM MST, Sulejman Talović began a deadly shooting spree in Trolley Square resulting in the deaths of five bystanders and the shooter himself,[1] as well as the wounding of at least four others. Talović was described as wearing a white shirt, a tan trenchcoat and a mullet.[2] He carried both a shotgun with a pistol grip and a 38-caliber handgun with rubber grips,[3] as well as a backpack full of ammunition.[4]

The gunman's rampage was stopped after trading shots with off-duty police officer Kenneth Hammond of the Ogden City Police Department...Hammond was at Trolley Square having an early Valentine's Day dinner with his pregnant wife, 911 dispatcher Sarita Hammond, when they heard gunshots...Salt Lake City police officials on February 13, 2007, thanked Hammond as a hero for saving countless lives.[4]"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_Square_shooting

I was working the trauma bay that night and got two of the survivors. Not a pretty sight.

This police officer had a weapon with him (in direct violation of the mall's no-guns policy I might add) and was able to engage the shooter and draw his fire until the first on-duty police officer arrived. Together they occupied the shooter until SWAT arrived and killed the shooter.

This kid had a pistol grip shotgun (which was later determined to have been obtained illegally, and the seller prosecuted), as well as a handgun. He also had a backpack full of shotgun shells. Had nobody been there to intervene the death toll would undoubtedly been much higher.

So there you have it. Proof that CCW can in fact be of benefit in these situations.

I don't have a CCW permit, nor do I plan on getting one by the way. But I do see their value, in situations like this.
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Last edited by SLC Flyfishing; Dec 17, 2012 at 12:08 PM.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 12:18 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I have to disagree.

I think the American society would be a better place if more people were not armed.

Just as the world would be a better place with fewer nuclear bombs.

Putting life-threatening devices in the hands of more people makes no sense to me.
The US could disband all of ours.

Leave the remaining few in the hands of the Russians and Iranians.

Good plan?

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What would have been even better is if *neither* the shooter nor the CCW holder were allowed to have weapons. Then, there would be no weapons at the mall which is the preferred state in my opinion.

Besides, if the CCW holder had indeed fired his weapon, he might have ended up killed by the cops or sitting in jail.
So draft a law that says no killing people with firearms in malls. I'm sure that will solve it.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 12:29 PM   #23
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The US could disband all of ours.

Leave the remaining few in the hands of the Russians and Iranians.

Good plan?
Are you afraid that Russia or Iran might send an invading armada across the Atlantic ocean because American citizens don't have guns?

Really?
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 12:32 PM   #24
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Unless a person is so completely out of tune with there surroundings they will always pause for at least a second when they see a gun pointed in there direction.

I have quite a few teacher friends that are horrified by what happened in Conn. and of course the discussion moved to CCW permits, training and the like.

A few of the teachers were hesitant and some would very much appreciate the ability to CC in there classroom and on school premises.

One of the teachers some something to the effect of:
I will say this...if I was allowed to carry in the classroom, the only thing that I would feel as I saw scum like that in my sights would be recoil!

A little dark but very much to the point, and something I happen to agree with.

One of the reports i read was of a 27 year old teacher that locked her kids in a closet or something and when the shooter came by told him they were in the gym. He shoot her and moved on. She saved all those kids lives and she is a hero! I can't help but wonder what would have happened and if she would still be alive had she been able to defend herself and/or kill the gunman.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 12:35 PM   #25
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You are the only one who has mentioned the word "hero." It's not about that at all.

My point is that the presence of another armed person may (or may not) have reduced the number of victims from what it possibly could have been, had there not been another armed person.
That is an excellent point.
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