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Old Nov 28, 2012, 06:32 AM   #301
gnasher729
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Originally Posted by gluckett View Post
The thing that frustrates me the most is I've submitted many reports from within the Maps app when I come across incorrect info, yet they still have not been addressed.
Here's what should happen in my opinion:

1. You receive a message when Apple's servers receive the report.
2. You receive a message when a human looks at your report.
3. You receive a message when your report is rejected or acted upon.

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Originally Posted by Mac... nificent View Post

Which no one here knows what those duties were. I too would love to hear his side of the story.
As "Manager Responsible for Maps" his duties were quite simple: Create a Maps application that customers will be happy with. There is some developer getting a decent salary who gets paid to work 40 hours a week to write code. That developer is judged by whether he produces 40 hours worth of useful work or not. If a project needs more time than the time he or she is given, that's not his fault. But then there is a manager who gets a much much higher salary, and he is getting that higher salary because he takes responsibility and makes things happen. And if the one developer can't do it in the allotted time, he hires another developer, or finds a better one, that's his job. But he is _not_ paid for doing his best. He is paid a _huge_ salary for getting the job done, and doing whatever it takes to get the job done.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 06:52 AM   #302
samcraig
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Originally Posted by gnasher729 View Post
----------

[/COLOR]

As "Manager Responsible for Maps" his duties were quite simple: Create a Maps application that customers will be happy with. There is some developer getting a decent salary who gets paid to work 40 hours a week to write code. That developer is judged by whether he produces 40 hours worth of useful work or not. If a project needs more time than the time he or she is given, that's not his fault. But then there is a manager who gets a much much higher salary, and he is getting that higher salary because he takes responsibility and makes things happen. And if the one developer can't do it in the allotted time, he hires another developer, or finds a better one, that's his job. But he is _not_ paid for doing his best. He is paid a _huge_ salary for getting the job done, and doing whatever it takes to get the job done.
Done isn't the only criteria. Done and done well. Done and within budget. Done without risking resources on other projects. Done in the project scope deadlines. Done meeting all the requirements.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 07:46 AM   #303
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That's a little harsh. I fail to believe this one person is the sole reason behind mapgate. Surely there is a bigger story behind the problem, and the whole department needs a big smacking and a second/last chance.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 07:50 AM   #304
samcraig
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Originally Posted by djdover View Post
That's a little harsh. I fail to believe this one person is the sole reason behind mapgate. Surely there is a bigger story behind the problem, and the whole department needs a big smacking and a second/last chance.
Ultimately - it's Tim's fault. If it wasn't ready for primetime - the buck stops with the person that gave the green light to release the product to the public.

There's an old saying - a good manager take less credit and more of the blame.

Yes - a CEO has to rely on its team. But at the end of the day - it's not the programmer or project manager that is up on state and has final say on the product release.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 08:13 AM   #305
Tiger8
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Originally Posted by jer04 View Post
looking forward to the new google maps on app store. hopefully it's gonna be approved by apple. /fingers crossed
It will be approved. I think the whole thing about it being possibly rejected is media hype from google. Apple might even bend backward a little to approve it. Too high profile to be denied now.

Luckily after updating my iPad and seeing how horrible it is, I kept my phone on iOS 5, I refuse to upgrade until I get google maps back.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 08:30 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by nfl46 View Post
Maps may be looking nice for iOS 7 next year.
yes we will have to buy the new iphone with the latest ios to get the improved maps...ridiculous

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Originally Posted by elberto1 View Post
Apple,

Just buy google already and make their maps (with voice navigation) yours.

You know that the purchase would barely make a dent in your corporate surplus anyways.

What's stopping you? Anti-trust?
No honey ....they need to keep their paws off google ...nobody want weak small increment upgrades to software
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 08:41 AM   #307
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It appears Apple forced TomTom to remove Google Search feature from latest TomTom App. Time to move Apple Maps to utilities folder and approve Google Maps.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 08:48 AM   #308
jer04
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Originally Posted by Tiger8 View Post
It will be approved. I think the whole thing about it being possibly rejected is media hype from google. Apple might even bend backward a little to approve it. Too high profile to be denied now.

Luckily after updating my iPad and seeing how horrible it is, I kept my phone on iOS 5, I refuse to upgrade until I get google maps back.
Yea, I hope so. You are lucky that you can still keep iOS 5. I got an iPhone 5 outright and sold my 4S. Hence, it's impossible for me to keep iOS 5.

iOS 6 has no new feature I really need/want, doesn't hv google maps and previously got that stupid cellular/wifi bug which ate nearly all my 2.5gb cellular data in just a week. I wish there was a way for iPhone 5 to downgrade to iOS 5.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 09:00 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Apple Corps View Post
iPhone 5 = best launch iPhone in history I believe. We have several in the family and have not had any bend or scratch.
Respectfully, the iPhone 5 launch was "just another launch".

Anyone in your position would be pleased.

I bought seven iP5's for my family with mixed results.

Yet none of that reflects on the launch, the six faulty phones are a reflection of Apples willingness to ship sub par phones all in the name of volume & profit taking.

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Originally Posted by jer04 View Post
iOS 6 has no new feature I really need/want

I wish there was a way for iPhone 5 to downgrade to iOS 5.
These are two very common thoughts of many iOS enthusiasts myself included.

Apples dictator like practices, forcing us into something we don't want will eventually bite them in the ass.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 09:07 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by kenypowa View Post
and yet there are still fanboys in this forum insisting nothing is wrong with Apple Maps.
No I don't think they are insisting nothing is wrong with Apple Maps, I think it is more they have not had an issue while others have. Doesn't mean they are wrong in saying it hasn't been an issue for "me". There is plenty of evidence to show that there are quite a few folks having issues with it.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 09:09 AM   #311
BaldiMac
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Originally Posted by Tech198 View Post
yep... i'm well aware of the letter..

Even Apple admits this its not up to par, since they recommended alternatives. to their own....
You asked a question, I provided an answer from Apple.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 09:31 AM   #312
Mark Booth
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From 2007 until 2012 (iOS 6 release), Apple's Maps app used Google data. Now Apple has the herculean task of trying to equal or better the quality and accuracy of Goggle's Map data. While Apple is attempting to do that, Google keeps making its data better and more accurate.

Apple will NEVER catch Google because Google's map data is a moving target. One with a HUGE head start. It doesn't matter how many engineers Apple throws at the project, Apple's effort will always be inferior because Google isn't resting on its laurels.

When the iPhone was released it was coolest damn gadget to come along in a long long time. It wasn't perfect, but each new iOS version improved on the one before it. That is, until iOS 6 and the entire Maps debacle. iOS 6 Maps is a big step backwards and one that Apple should be embarrassed that it made.

Personally, I don't think Apple's #1 goal is to even equal or beat Google's map data. I think Apple just wants to improve its map data to the point that it's not a complete and utter embarrassment.

How sad! Simply because two companies couldn't sit down as mature adults and hammer out an agreement regarding Maps data, the users get an inferior experience, Apple gets a black eye, and a bunch of people lose their jobs because they aren't able to achieve the near-impossible.

Firing those responsible won't fix the problem. Only inking a contract with Google to bring back Google's mapping data will solve the problem.

Mark
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 09:45 AM   #313
samcraig
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If I may add. The whole rant on "we didn't get into the search business" is a deflect anyway.

I would bet dollars to donuts that entering the phone market (while precarious in its own way) is far easier and faster than entering into the search (or in this case, maps) market. For the reasons you gave below.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Booth View Post
From 2007 until 2012 (iOS 6 release), Apple's Maps app used Google data. Now Apple has the herculean task of trying to equal or better the quality and accuracy of Goggle's Map data. While Apple is attempting to do that, Google keeps making its data better and more accurate.

Apple will NEVER catch Google because Google's map data is a moving target. One with a HUGE head start. It doesn't matter how many engineers Apple throws at the project, Apple's effort will always be inferior because Google isn't resting on its laurels.

When the iPhone was released it was coolest damn gadget to come along in a long long time. It wasn't perfect, but each new iOS version improved on the one before it. That is, until iOS 6 and the entire Maps debacle. iOS 6 Maps is a big step backwards and one that Apple should be embarrassed that it made.

Personally, I don't think Apple's #1 goal is to even equal or beat Google's map data. I think Apple just wants to improve its map data to the point that it's not a complete and utter embarrassment.

How sad! Simply because two companies couldn't sit down as mature adults and hammer out an agreement regarding Maps data, the users get an inferior experience, Apple gets a black eye, and a bunch of people lose their jobs because they aren't able to achieve the near-impossible.

Firing those responsible won't fix the problem. Only inking a contract with Google to bring back Google's mapping data will solve the problem.

Mark
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 09:47 AM   #314
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[QUOTE=ixodes;16380364]Respectfully, the iPhone 5 launch was "just another launch".

Anyone in your position would be pleased.

I bought seven iP5's for my family with mixed results.

Yet none of that reflects on the launch, the six faulty phones are a reflection of Apples willingness to ship sub par phones all in the name of volume & profit taking.[COLOR="#808080"]

My use of the term "launch" was all inclusive - design / materials / functionality / price / etc. More iP5s purchased / shipped in whatever time period used than any other. The best yet in millions of customers opinion.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 10:00 AM   #315
avanpelt
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Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
Ultimately - it's Tim's fault. If it wasn't ready for primetime - the buck stops with the person that gave the green light to release the product to the public.

There's an old saying - a good manager take less credit and more of the blame.

Yes - a CEO has to rely on its team. But at the end of the day - it's not the programmer or project manager that is up on state and has final say on the product release.
Tim apologized -- something Forstall wouldn't do. Who knows if this Williamson guy was asked to sign the apology or not. If Williamson was asked to sign it and refused, he had to know that his days were numbered.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 10:02 AM   #316
samcraig
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Originally Posted by avanpelt View Post
Tim apologized -- something Forstall wouldn't do. Who knows if this Williamson guy was asked to sign the apology or not. If Williamson was asked to sign it and refused, he had to know that his days were numbered.
Not arguing. I was just stating that people can start pointing the finger at whoever they want. Are they in part responsible - sure. But not ultimately as far as the consumer is concerned.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 10:16 AM   #317
gnasher729
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Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
Done isn't the only criteria. Done and done well. Done and within budget. Done without risking resources on other projects. Done in the project scope deadlines. Done meeting all the requirements.
If it's not done well it's not done. If it's not done when it's needed, it is not done. "Deadlines" are often arbitrary, but there is usually a _real_ point in time when it's needed.

Requirements can always be adjusted in order to get the job done.
Budget can always be adjusted in order to get the job done.

The others? If other projects are within his responsibility, then they are part of his job as well. Otherwise it's a matter of priorities, to be decided by his boss.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 10:23 AM   #318
samcraig
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Originally Posted by gnasher729 View Post
If it's not done well it's not done. If it's not done when it's needed, it is not done. "Deadlines" are often arbitrary, but there is usually a _real_ point in time when it's needed.

Requirements can always be adjusted in order to get the job done.
Budget can always be adjusted in order to get the job done.

The others? If other projects are within his responsibility, then they are part of his job as well. Otherwise it's a matter of priorities, to be decided by his boss.
LOL. Sorry. In a perfect world - Done is done well and when needed and on budget. Done in the real world doesn't necc. mean any of those.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 10:34 AM   #319
IJ Reilly
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It's actually quite right and a peeve I have against Apple's maps. The "clutter free", the "cleanliness" makes them damn hard to read at a glance. You really have to concentrate to recognize roads, zoom in to disproportionate levels to get details you should have gotten at a glance for a wider area, which then causes you to scroll around to much.

Google Maps' "clutter" (it's not actually clutter, it's information as you put it) is much easier to read at a glance, shows up at better zoom levels.

Having tons of flat color areas on maps might look good, but maps are sources of information, not pretty things to look at. Apple really needs to up the ante here.
Again, you apparently think the Google approach is "right" because this is what you expect, because it is what you have grown used to seeing. This is familiarity, not correctness. Can the data presented at any given scale be adjusted? Sure, but there's no automatically right answer to what should be shown at any given scale, this is a matter of judgement on the part of the cartographer. If everyone's favorite detail were to be available at every map scale, then the maps would not transmit information efficiently. This is not an aesthetic choice, but the most fundamental goal of map making. The bottom line: Google's approach isn't clearly "right" and Apple's clearly "wrong" because they made different data scaling decisions, or because you personally prefer one approach over another.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 10:44 AM   #320
gnasher729
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Originally Posted by Mark Booth View Post
Apple will NEVER catch Google because Google's map data is a moving target. One with a HUGE head start. It doesn't matter how many engineers Apple throws at the project, Apple's effort will always be inferior because Google isn't resting on its laurels.
NEVER is a very, very long time. Apple has done quite a few things successfully that they should have NEVER done. Apple would NEVER have a higher market caps than Dell. They would NEVER have more revenue than Microsoft, and definitely NEVER more profit. They would NEVER make any phones. They would NEVER sell more than 5% of computers in the USA.

Where you are right is that maps are a problem that isn't solved by engineers. It's solved by lots of little people driving around in lots of little cars.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 10:44 AM   #321
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I would broaden the above when it comes to OSes as well. Familiarity does equate to better or more intuitive in many cases. One's experience or willingness to immerse themselves into whichever/or several OSes can clearly demonstrate that they all have pluses and minuses. And while you may prefer one - it doesn't make it better. Just better for you.

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Originally Posted by IJ Reilly View Post
Again, you apparently think the Google approach is "right" because this is what you expect, because it is what you have grown used to seeing. This is familiarity, not correctness. Can the data presented at any given scale be adjusted? Sure, but there's no automatically right answer to what should be shown at any given scale, this is a matter of judgement on the part of the cartographer. If everyone's favorite detail were to be available at every map scale, then the maps would not transmit information efficiently. This is not an aesthetic choice, but the most fundamental goal of map making. The bottom line: Google's approach isn't clearly "right" and Apple's clearly "wrong" because they made different data scaling decisions, or because you personally prefer one approach over another.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 11:00 AM   #322
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Not arguing. I was just stating that people can start pointing the finger at whoever they want. Are they in part responsible - sure. But not ultimately as far as the consumer is concerned.
Agreed.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 11:11 AM   #323
IJ Reilly
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Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
I would broaden the above when it comes to OSes as well. Familiarity does equate to better or more intuitive in many cases. One's experience or willingness to immerse themselves into whichever/or several OSes can clearly demonstrate that they all have pluses and minuses. And while you may prefer one - it doesn't make it better. Just better for you.
Yes, this is a good analogy. Windows users are often frustrated by the Mac because it doesn't have a Start menu, and does any number of other things differently, so they can feel really lost for awhile if forced to work in that new environment. One approach to solving a problem over another may well be more supportable from a human engineering point of view, but by-in-large we aren't debating design philosophy in these discussions. What is really being argued here is that one or another feature that someone is accustomed to seeing implemented in a particular way has changed. It's not a surprise that this just seems "wrong" to them, instead of simply different. They'd probably get used to the difference, and maybe even eventually decide that the new way is better, if they gave themselves time to adjust.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 11:24 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by kenypowa View Post
and yet there are still fanboys in this forum insisting nothing is wrong with Apple Maps.
Thats the funniest part. When I try looking for my street it shows nothing. Just empty space. Even surrounding stores are not there. And the area names in my city is all screwed up.

But tbere is nothing wrong with apple maps.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 11:26 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
Ultimately - it's Tim's fault. If it wasn't ready for primetime - the buck stops with the person that gave the green light to release the product to the public.

There's an old saying - a good manager take less credit and more of the blame.

Yes - a CEO has to rely on its team. But at the end of the day - it's not the programmer or project manager that is up on state and has final say on the product release.
Not if your product manager sandbagged you with false information. The IOS map has a very odd launch. Forstall was talking about how great the map is on Iphone 5 launch while the IOS 6 beta feedback was terrible. Forstall should know the bad feedback. The question is whether Tim Cook and the BOD know that too. If Tim Cook know the state of the launch and still launch the map the same way, he should be fired too. But judging from the action afterward (Forstall refuse to sign the letter of apology etc. and the chaos of trying to hire more programmer after the launch.), it is a clear indication that the software organization did not plan on such a negative response from users and has to change in mid-course. If the guy in charge of Map and Software development don't think that it is a problem, how would the CEO know that it is a big problem? I am glad Tim Cook has the ball to fire Forstall since I am sure he has a lot of fan in the BOD given his long history in Apple. So Cook put his career on the line as well if BOD hadn't support his decision to fire Forstall. And I don't think anyone working in Apple dare to sandbag their company anymore.
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