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Old Dec 3, 2012, 05:58 PM   #76
Huntn
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Originally Posted by VenusianSky View Post
LOL. You must not get how fun it is to play the game, "Stare at the metro/iOS screen". It is the only reason I own an iPad.
I am shocked you did not immediately dump your iPad for a Windows 8 tablet. What's that you say, it's ugly?
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 06:41 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
I am shocked you did not immediately dump your iPad for a Windows 8 tablet. What's that you say, it's ugly?
Looks don't matter to me. I have an iPad for its usefulness and the apps that are available for it (Lemur, Animoog and Logitech Harmony Link in particular).
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 07:05 PM   #78
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What is good for my iphone, due to lack of real estate is terrible for my desktop Mac. Actually I keep most of my iOS icons arranged in folders starting on the second page of my iPhone. And I would not be able to keep as many tightly spaced if they were giant green and blue boxes.
Ha! I do that too. Got all my frequently used stuff on the dock (and why can't the iOS dock act like the OSX one? WHYYY), my more than occasionally stuff on the front page, and everything else sorted into a bunch of folders on the second.

I see the new start screen as this. Back in the old start menu days, the most icons I could pin to it were 12. Not really that many overall. Considering I don't like pinning whole loads of stuff on my taskbar, I kept everything squirreled away there.

...but I never had enough room for everything. Since I can't freaking damn stand nested menus, I used search to launch most of my stuff.

Now, with a whole big screen I can pin all kinds of stuff to it without any of it getting in my way. I think right now I have 45 or so various programs and apps on it. I don't have to look at them until I'm ready to launch them. With the added bonus of being able to pin more to it than just programs now, the new start screen has been nothing but beneficial to me.

Plus I never liked Aero glass all that much. Once I got past the "oooh shiny" stage, it started annoying me a little bit. Win8 took away the shiny effect entirely, and left the taskbar transparent. It looks tons better to me now.

But...like you said...

Quote:
it's personal preference.
I don't think it's all that bad myself. YMMV.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 07:49 PM   #79
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Ha! I do that too. Got all my frequently used stuff on the dock (and why can't the iOS dock act like the OSX one? WHYYY), my more than occasionally stuff on the front page, and everything else sorted into a bunch of folders on the second.

I see the new start screen as this. Back in the old start menu days, the most icons I could pin to it were 12. Not really that many overall. Considering I don't like pinning whole loads of stuff on my taskbar, I kept everything squirreled away there.

...but I never had enough room for everything. Since I can't freaking damn stand nested menus, I used search to launch most of my stuff.

Now, with a whole big screen I can pin all kinds of stuff to it without any of it getting in my way. I think right now I have 45 or so various programs and apps on it. I don't have to look at them until I'm ready to launch them. With the added bonus of being able to pin more to it than just programs now, the new start screen has been nothing but beneficial to me.

Plus I never liked Aero glass all that much. Once I got past the "oooh shiny" stage, it started annoying me a little bit. Win8 took away the shiny effect entirely, and left the taskbar transparent. It looks tons better to me now.

But...like you said...



I don't think it's all that bad myself. YMMV.
I've not really tried this, but you can use Siri to launch a lot of them (if not all) and never have to go get them.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 01:14 PM   #80
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Nonsense. Upon being proved wrong you changed your mind and edited your original post.

LMAO. This post is overflowing with fail!


Check the post and edit times. Edit 6 minuets after original, and BEFORE anyone else posted. See the 3ed post, contains everything, especially that last part about what I think MS will persist in.

Maybe I am a Jedi and can see the future? ("Uncertain is the future").

Ok, let me pick my A off the floor...

No, MS will not go away but it is making serious mistakes.
  • Introduced Zune. Died
  • Introduced Win Vista, huge disappointment, forced to keep XP alive
  • Introduced "tablets" in 2000, never gained popularity.
  • Introduced WinPhone (2002?), on track to be most popular, until iPhone. Now less then 1% of market.
  • Last 2 years PC makers report declining sales, yet Mac is experiencing record sales (I know, iOS effect)
  • Last quarter marked first time ever of a DECLINE in PC sales.
  • Killed MS Flight Sim, a "game" with excellent 3ed party support and near monopoly, a guaranteed income source.
  • 2012 ran huge advertising campaign for Internet Explorer (version not specified I think), yet all Win systems have IE already installed.
  • Latest mobile offerings (Win7 and Win8) not well received.
  • Steve Balmer... OK, scratch that one


MS does have:
  • Unchallenged dominance in the Business and Enterprise domain.
  • Strong server base (but challenged)
  • Brisk (but diminishing) sales to home, especially in GAMES related use.
  • Most widely used office application suite (challenged by free versions).
  • XBox


It is obvious MS has fallen from its high and in the near term it is likely to continue its decline, but it does have plenty of time to turn things around.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 02:03 PM   #81
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I can't believe how many people forget about or simply ignore the Enterprise.

The vast majority of Microsoft's success was due to Enterprise sales. Large corporations deployed millions of Windows PC's, Exchange Servers and SQL Servers. Microsoft Office and Outlook/Exchange became REQUIREMENTS for the enterprise.

This is what made MS's fortunes. The Enterprise market dwarfed the home PC market.

Then in the mid to late 1990's more people were interested in buying a home computer. PC's became "good enough" with Windows '95. It was a no-brainer to buy a Windows PC--they were cheaper than Macs, PC's had many more games for the kids, and it ran the same software that mom & dad used at work.

Microsoft tried to ride this huge installed base and put "Windows Everywhere" WinCE was their embedded OS attempt. They put it on phones, in ATM's, gas pumps, etc. They also deployed pen-based tablets.

What MS missed was that you can not and should not push a desktop mouse and keyboard OS into every other device. It just doesn't work.

Microsoft was behind on the web, but caught up (anti-competitive means?) and won the first brower war. They then thought the living room was the next big wave of computing, and went after Sony with the Xbox. While gaming is big, MS didn't see that mobile was really where the next big market would be.

Now smartphones are the #1 selling computing platform. Almost everyone in the western world has a powerful, internet connected computer in their pocket. Tablets are soon to follow. The desktop/laptop PC are becoming the "trucks" that Steve Jobs talked about.

90% of a typical person's home computing is done with a browser or simple one-function apps (Facebook, Banking, Calendar). MS lost its locked in advantage of Windows/Office.

I don't see Windows 8 gaining in the Enterprise. My company has 80k employees worldwide and 8k in the US. We just deployed Windows 7 and Office 2010 two months ago. Every day I see more and more iPads in meetings.

If mid size and larger companies start moving to Google Docs or other online services, then MS will truely be doomed.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 04:04 PM   #82
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Also another likely truth is that people simply do not like Metro/Modern UI on a phone or PC. People have gotten used to the iOS/Android icons and they love them. Not only that but the gradients, drop shadows, lighting effects as well. WP & Windows 8 are absent the eye candy.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 05:14 PM   #83
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Icarus paradox IMHO.

A fail isn't always a fail (until they're out of business), rather a response to market demand while organisations go through boom and bust cycles.

BTW there's plenty of spurious reasoning and specious relationships in the posts on this thread, I'm not sure where to start.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 11:33 PM   #84
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Icarus paradox IMHO.

A fail isn't always a fail (until they're out of business), rather a response to market demand while organisations go through boom and bust cycles.

BTW there's plenty of spurious reasoning and specious relationships in the posts on this thread, I'm not sure where to start.
Microsoft has never flown close to the heavens, Apple did(middle 80s).
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 01:30 PM   #85
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I can't believe how many people forget about or simply ignore the Enterprise.

.....

If mid size and larger companies start moving to Google Docs or other online services, then MS will truely be doomed.
Yes, should have mentioned that directly in original post, but was on my mind. Did say in my post above yours.

And, yes, Google Doc's, I use that more then Office too. Should have noted that threat to MS.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 03:53 PM   #86
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Also another likely truth is that people simply do not like Metro/Modern UI on a phone or PC. People have gotten used to the iOS/Android icons and they love them. Not only that but the gradients, drop shadows, lighting effects as well. WP & Windows 8 are absent the eye candy.
Not only that but for most casual users, Windows 8 may prove to be confusing and difficult to use. The main feature of Win8/Metro is the "live tiles" with constant updates and changing appearance. I recently read a Win8 commentary that showed (in limited research) that these constantly changing tiles made it very difficult for casual users to navigate the system.

Regular folks are used to finding things based on remembering the look and location of an icon. If that icon is constnatly changing, it frustrates the user as they can't find the app they are looking for.

I've never used Win8 so I'm not sure how configurable this type of stuff is. I just thought it was an interesting point.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 04:24 AM   #87
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Microsoft has never flown close to the heavens, Apple did(middle 80s).
That was hardly the point I was making.

The point being Microsoft is having a difficult time after the PC-era as we're moving into mobile era. I'm not comparing the success of Apple to Microsoft rather they have owned the PC marketing during the 90's and now having a difficult time recreating that level of success for a new market.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:07 AM   #88
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To people that talk like this, I have only one thing to say: COBOL.

COBOL has been officially declared dead for DECADES and yet it's still out there, and not just as a museum piece, or throwback oddity. People STILL use COBOL. Seriously... Heck, even FORTRAN, and Basic too...

It does appear that Microsoft has been enduring a lot of self inflicted wounds in the past decade or so, but they will end up surviving, in some form. There will always be people that appreciate the choice, and find the Microsoft products usable for their purposes.

Don't declare Microsoft dead yet... It's a huge mistake to discount your competition.

Although I generally agree wholeheartedly with people's opinions that Windows 8 will largely fail. (Heck, if even a quarter of the huge Fortune 500 companies avoid Windows 8, it will be a disaster, but again, Microsoft will survive)
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:25 AM   #89
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*cough* *cough* Windows ME *cough* *cough*

...though that was less ineptitude on their part, and more a "screw it, why not? We can do whatever we want" moment.
As if Windows ME was the worst OS that came out of the 90s, ( yes it came out in college, but its right out of the 90s )have you ever used Mac OS 7-9? Even worse than ME.

----------

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I actually had less problems on my computer when I installed Windows ME than I did when it was running Windows 98 SE. However, I heard so many people talking about problems with ME that I never recommended anyone to upgrade to it.
Windows ME deserves some of its shame, but not all. To be honest, for its time. It was pretty innovative and forward thinking, shoddy programming kinda killed it.

I ran it my 1st year of College, it came on my awful looking translucent, until XP came out, Then I upgraded. In the year I ran it, I can't say I ever ran into a serious issue with it, after I uninstalled that garbage Dell Microsoft Bob Ripoff crap I never had an issue with it.

It did get unstable when I really pushed the machine.

But its not as bad as everyone thinks it was.

You think ME was Bad? Use OS 8.

Windows ME had some GOOD features to it, believe it or not.

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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:39 AM   #90
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Funny story

You see all those futuristic movies and see the computers they're using? Most of us say to ourselves, "I want that". We really want to use that futuristic stuff.

However when Microsoft starts the transition we have the shock moment. We're like "WTH?".

All I'm saying is, we can't get to the futuristic stuff by continuing the traditional stuff.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 01:27 AM   #91
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To people that talk like this, I have only one thing to say: COBOL.

COBOL has been officially declared dead for DECADES and yet it's still out there, and not just as a museum piece, or throwback oddity. People STILL use COBOL. Seriously... Heck, even FORTRAN, and Basic too...

It does appear that Microsoft has been enduring a lot of self inflicted wounds in the past decade or so, but they will end up surviving, in some form. There will always be people that appreciate the choice, and find the Microsoft products usable for their purposes.

Don't declare Microsoft dead yet... It's a huge mistake to discount your competition.

Although I generally agree wholeheartedly with people's opinions that Windows 8 will largely fail. (Heck, if even a quarter of the huge Fortune 500 companies avoid Windows 8, it will be a disaster, but again, Microsoft will survive)
COBOL is a niche technology that does not net billions a quarter in profits for anyone. Is that your argument that Microsoft will eventually survive being a $100 million/year company?

----------

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Funny story

You see all those futuristic movies and see the computers they're using? Most of us say to ourselves, "I want that". We really want to use that futuristic stuff.

However when Microsoft starts the transition we have the shock moment. We're like "WTH?".

All I'm saying is, we can't get to the futuristic stuff by continuing the traditional stuff.
have you seen the Microsoft Productivity Future Vision video? OMG, some of that is going to be reality soon.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 02:34 PM   #92
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Nope, I'm searching for it now though.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 08:58 PM   #93
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I wouldn't even bother using COBOL as an example; bad one at that. COBOL is a software language. Microsoft has a quite a few of those in their catalog of software. C#, C++, VB#, ASP.NET, MS SQL. Heck, I believe they even once had a COBOL compiler, IIRC. Visual Studio is probably the most popular IDE in the world.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 11:46 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post

So, who will likely buy the very late MS smartphone and tablets?
1. MS/Windows lovers
2. Apple haters
3. Cheapskates (mainly, even a $200 Fire too expensive).
(the others are too insignificant to list)
What???

I love my MBP, but sometimes people like you, yes you "PracticalMac", sometimes make me feel ashamed to own my Mac or other Apple products.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 03:17 AM   #95
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LMAO. This post is overflowing with fail!
You're one to talk.

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No, MS will not go away but it is making serious mistakes.
  • Introduced Zune. Died
    True. But it isn't a current mistake.
  • Introduced Win Vista, huge disappointment, forced to keep XP alive
    The disappointment of Vista wasn't why they were 'forced' to keep XP alive. Microsoft have a longer support lifecycle than Apple. Microsoft takes into account the enterprise and business markets that cannot just upgrade whenever they wish. Also, Vista isn't current, just like the Zune.
  • Introduced "tablets" in 2000, never gained popularity.
    They introduced touchscreen capability for Windows. I guess a combination of Windows being a GUI for a mouse and keyboard and that hardware manufacturers were doing a terrible job of making decent tablets sorta killed them. Not really Microsoft's fault though, they just introduced a feature. Irrelevant and not a current mistake.
  • Introduced WinPhone (2002?), on track to be most popular, until iPhone. Now less then 1% of market.
    Not a current mistake.
  • Last 2 years PC makers report declining sales, yet Mac is experiencing record sales (I know, iOS effect)
    Again, PCs have a longer lifecycle than Macs. Many people using a 2003 XP machine can still do everything they want to just fine, thus ensuring people stick to their platform. Hardly current and hardly a mistake. You can't use OS X Tiger for hardly anything nowadays and this was supposedly the OS that left XP in the dust.
  • Last quarter marked first time ever of a DECLINE in PC sales.
    To be expected. Tablets are more popular now. Encase you haven't noticed, the new GUI of Windows RT and Windows 8 cater for tablets.
  • Killed MS Flight Sim, a "game" with excellent 3ed party support and near monopoly, a guaranteed income source.
    Last time I looked, MS Flight Sim was still downloadable from Steam.
  • 2012 ran huge advertising campaign for Internet Explorer (version not specified I think), yet all Win systems have IE already installed.
    So what? How is this a fail?
  • Latest mobile offerings (Win7 and Win8) not well received.
    Really? To me it looks like a lack of Apps is the only thing letting it down. That will slowly change as it has been doing with Android.
  • Steve Balmer... OK, scratch that one
    What about him? If he was really as stupid as all you guys on this site claim he is, I doubt he'd be in charge of Microsoft. He'd have been ousted a long time ago.


MS does have:
  • Unchallenged dominance in the Business and Enterprise domain.
    True.
  • Strong server base (but challenged)
    True.
  • Brisk (but diminishing) sales to home, especially in GAMES related use.
    It is too early to tell if it is really diminishing as the transition from PC to Tablet occurs in home sales. We'll wait another five years for that one. I heard Windows 8 sold well though.
  • Most widely used office application suite (challenged by free versions).
    Nonsense. The free alternatives to office (with the exception of Google Docs maybe) are total trash and don't even come close.
  • XBox
    True.


It is obvious MS has fallen from its high and in the near term it is likely to continue its decline, but it does have plenty of time to turn things around.
They already have turned things around. A consistent and simple interface for all of their devices makes sure everyone is already familiar with their devices, incorporating a touch GUI for Windows ensures they won't loose out on a slice of the Tablet action, simple but powerful cloud syncing service (and SkyDrive) and they already dominate everything PC. As it stands Microsoft are currently set for the future as much as Apple are.

They're not in any trouble. Nothing will happen to them. Markets may shift slightly, but other than that, Microsoft are as safe as Apple, Google and Amazon.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 09:56 AM   #96
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What???

I love my MBP, but sometimes people like you, yes you "PracticalMac", sometimes make me feel ashamed to own my Mac or other Apple products.
You have an Apple product, so you are not a cheapskate.

I assume you purchased a Droid tablet, good reason I am sure.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 01:43 PM   #97
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You're one to talk.

They're not in any trouble. Nothing will happen to them. Markets may shift slightly, but other than that, Microsoft are as safe as Apple, Google and Amazon.
Yes, I am one to talk.

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Introduced "tablets" in 2000, never gained popularity.
They introduced touchscreen capability for Windows. I guess a combination of Windows being a GUI for a mouse and keyboard and that hardware manufacturers were doing a terrible job of making decent tablets sorta killed them. Not really Microsoft's fault though, they just introduced a feature. Irrelevant and not a current mistake.
Introduced WinPhone (2002?), on track to be most popular, until iPhone. Now less then 1% of market.
Not a current mistake.
Last 2 years PC makers report declining sales, yet Mac is experiencing record sales (I know, iOS effect)
Again, PCs have a longer lifecycle than Macs. Many people using a 2003 XP machine can still do everything they want to just fine, thus ensuring people stick to their platform. Hardly current and hardly a mistake. You can't use OS X Tiger for hardly anything nowadays and this was supposedly the OS that left XP in the dust.
It takes years for huge companies to fall. Kodak began its fall decades ago, and only recently has the collapse accelerated, so I am looking at last 10 years of MS.
MS heyday was about 2000, ever since then the net result is decline in most sectors, and yes, they are all very relevant.

MS early tablet failed barbecue MS had a poor interface, and should have had more control of what mfg made, if what you say is case.
I use my Mac's 7 years before I replace, while I have to replace my PC' in about 4 to 5. I have updated my MBP from 10.4, to .5, to .6, to .7, and possibly .8

MS Flight Sim might still be on sale, found in the Wal-Mart clearance bin next to more expensive horrible buggy stuff from China (not that MS is crap, just clearing out).
MS Flight sim is extensively used for actual pilot training, and a significant amount of support for MSFS exists, including I think 2 magazine just for FS. Without updates to include new tools in cockpit, FS will be quickly abandoned.
Competing (and Mac compatible) X-Plane does include iPad connectivity for navigation simulation


And PS, XP almost 3 times more used then Vista?
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 01:58 PM   #98
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Eh? MS has seen nothing but steady growth up until the last year. They haven't done anything I'd call industry shaking from 2001 on, but that's hardly indicative of a decline. Rather, they were more akin to AT&T during their monopoly heyday than they are Kodak.

If things continue they way they are now that we're in the midst of the :drumroll: mobile revolution, you might have a point. But that's only assuming that MS will perpetually fail to float a product in that particular market for the next 10-20 years, and said market continues to grow until it completely encompasses enterprise and consumers both.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 03:09 PM   #99
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Yes, I am one to talk.
Sigh. I probably shouldn't bite, but here goes.



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It takes years for huge companies to fall. Kodak began its fall decades ago, and only recently has the collapse accelerated, so I am looking at last 10 years of MS.
Okay. Whatever. You believe that.

Quote:
MS early tablet failed barbecue MS had a poor interface, and should have had more control of what mfg made, if what you say is case.
I agree. But they didn't. And to be honest, it hasn't really hurt them until the iPad surfaced. But they have their own touch orientated OS now, so it's irrelevant what they once did.

Quote:
I use my Mac's 7 years before I replace, while I have to replace my PC' in about 4 to 5. I have updated my MBP from 10.4, to .5, to .6, to .7, and possibly .8
That is great. But in a consumer world, people don't upgrade OS. Them who bought a 10.4 Mac would have had to buy the 120 Leopard upgrade to continue getting updates and app compatibility in the future. Them who have bought a much cheaper XP computer are still running fine without further purchases. It is certainly Apple's lack of long term support for their software that turns me off buying all of their products. I'm not made of money and Apple certainly know how to milk it from customers, just so they can continue what they were doing before.

My 2003 ThinkPad can run Windows 7 (not 8 though) just fine. Windows 7 has a hell of a lot of support left in it. Next year, will you be able to upgrade your MBP to 10.9? Probably not. Unlucky, because as soon as 10.9 is released, updates for 10.8 will stop after a year and you'll find yourself slowly dwindling into incompatibility as Apps update and drop support. They do it quickly on OS X.

Quote:
MS Flight Sim might still be on sale, found in the Wal-Mart clearance bin next to more expensive horrible buggy stuff from China (not that MS is crap, just clearing out).
MS Flight sim is extensively used for actual pilot training, and a significant amount of support for MSFS exists, including I think 2 magazine just for FS. Without updates to include new tools in cockpit, FS will be quickly abandoned.
Competing (and Mac compatible) X-Plane does include iPad connectivity for navigation simulation
Well since I'm not into flight sims much, I wouldn't know. If it means anything to you, it's currently free on Steam with a lot of optional DLCs. The last update was October this year. Looks like it's still being worked on by MS if you ask me.


See my point above. There is no need to upgrade to the latest and greatest if you use Windows. Microsoft support their software and products a lot longer than Apple do. There is no question, Vista was a fairly poor OS, but I imagine Microsoft expected everyone to stick with XP anyway, especially businesses. They'd be idiots to think otherwise. Throughout their history Microsoft have experienced the same thing; a popular OS and then one or two unpopular ones since everyones PCs still work fine and there is no point in upgrading. It happened with DOS 5.0, Windows 3.1, Windows NT 4, Windows XP and now Windows 7. Depending on how quickly they release the next OSs, MS's next popular OS may be Windows 9, 10 or even 11.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 08:43 PM   #100
VenusianSky
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Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
It takes years for huge companies to fall. Kodak began its fall decades ago, and only recently has the collapse accelerated, so I am looking at last 10 years of MS.
Just like when Apple nearly failed years ago and Microsoft so generously invested in a large quantity of Apple stock.

First off, you present nothing that shows that Microsoft, today, is any sort of decline, because they are not. Second, if they were in decline, they are far from it and businesses can change, just like what Apple did a decade ago. I think it is safe to assume that Microsoft employs some brilliant minds when it comes to business and technology. They constantly make the top employers lists by the major media. For Microsoft to fail, it would probably mean that Apple already failed and the country is in complete turmoil. Microsoft software is well established within the global economy. United States is the leader in computer technology because of companies like Microsoft, Intel and IBM.
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