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Old Dec 3, 2012, 06:58 AM   #551
KnightWRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutonius View Post
Like me, I'm sure they were surprised by all the useless complaining.
Because if someone doesn't post positive comments, it's automatically complaining right ?

I'm surprised by all the apologizing myself, the complaining I was expecting.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 07:02 AM   #552
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didn't know you had to read the comments on Macrumors when the article is on iFixit
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 07:16 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by MacFoodPoisoner View Post
that's complete rubbish. Any power computer user (as loosely defined as that may be) knows one of THE most important aspects when buying a desktop is repairability and upgradability, because parts age and fail and have to be replaced. To a lot of people it's a joy too, and hobby to get some more ram, a better hd, an ssd later on, and tweak their computer a bit to extend it's age, or simply for the fun of it.

There are countless users, even novice ones who have added drives, memory, or did other minor tweaks and modifications, and even repairs to their macs. To claim that people complaining about repairability ( eg to throw some more ram in you have to cross your heart and play strip poker for a few hours with the imac so you can pretty much take everything out and go at the very backside of the mobo to get to it) are those who 'd have never done any repairs to it is simply bonkers.
How is it that you are complaining about the post that says most people complaining here will / would never replace their own LCDs on an iMac? You are not speaking about iMacs but desktop machines which are not all-in-ones. The OP did not speak of other modifications, just the LCD.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 07:39 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by osaga View Post
Oh darn its not end user serviceable. Neither is your car, or your tv. Who flipp'n cares!
Cars are user serviceable.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 07:44 AM   #555
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Since I work for a school district, we self service our machines. That being said, I am going to be pushing the administration to switch to PCs in the near future. This basically forces us into an extended warranty, which we can't afford on a mass scale.

Bye Apple!
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 07:55 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by bbplayer5 View Post
Since I work for a school district, we self service our machines. That being said, I am going to be pushing the administration to switch to PCs in the near future. This basically forces us into an extended warranty, which we can't afford on a mass scale.

Bye Apple!
Be sure to let Apple know know the specifics (how many are switching over, the reason you are switching, etc.). Otherwise, nothing will change. Also, please post in a year and let everyone know how it went after the switch.

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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
Cars are user serviceable.
I'm not sure what car / car year you drive but mine's not user serviceable. I can't even change the oil anymore .
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 07:57 AM   #557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutonius View Post
Be sure to let Apple know know the specifics (how many are switching over, the reason you are switching, etc.). Otherwise, nothing will change. Also, please post in a year and let everyone know how it went after the switch.

----------



I'm not sure what car / car year you drive but mine's not user serviceable. I can't even change the oil anymore .
I sure hope you can throw a spare on when you get a flat. Because it sounds like you can't replace the HDD on these new iMacs when it inevitable fails.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 08:14 AM   #558
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I sure hope you can throw a spare on when you get a flat.
Runflats. Do we have the equivalent for a hard drive? No. That's the problem here. Whilst cars are becoming less and less user-serviceable the car manufacturers have given us ways to still be able to get home. How do I "get home" when my iMac's hard drive fails?
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 08:16 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by Plutonius View Post
Be sure to let Apple know know the specifics (how many are switching over, the reason you are switching, etc.). Otherwise, nothing will change. Also, please post in a year and let everyone know how it went after the switch.

----------



I'm not sure what car / car year you drive but mine's not user serviceable. I can't even change the oil anymore .
You can't change your own oil? Its pretty easy.

The vast majority of cars are user repairable and serviceable. Unless your talking about tearing a motor down.

Then again, this is a throw away computer, as most computers are. Where as cars typically go 10 to 20 years with basic maintence.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 08:18 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by Appleisntpefect View Post
As if.

Apple is killing off everything that has any ability to work on it so they can make more money repairing it for $$$$$$$$$$$$$prices and force you to live life on iTunes and pay them more money.

Apple is now the IBM of "1984"
The Samsung ads are funny because they are true.
Really?

Unbelievable!

Appleisntpefect has not made any friends yet - Will he ever?
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 08:30 AM   #561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plutonius View Post
Be sure to let Apple know know the specifics (how many are switching over, the reason you are switching, etc.). Otherwise, nothing will change. Also, please post in a year and let everyone know how it went after the switch.

----------



I'm not sure what car / car year you drive but mine's not user serviceable. I can't even change the oil anymore .
One of the easiest tasks to perform on your car is to change the oil. But you have to have a jack, wrench for the drain plug, filter removal tool, and oil drain pan / container. And I prefer changing my own oil because too many of those oil change shops have workers who may not replace the filter or the drain plug. They may suck oil out instead of draining it.

I recently replaced my own brake hardware (pads, rotors, etc.), my own water pump, serpentine belt, alternator, radiator hoses, radiator, yada-yada-yada.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattSepeta View Post
I sure hope you can throw a spare on when you get a flat. Because it sounds like you can't replace the HDD on these new iMacs when it inevitable fails.
Just replace the HDD with a SSD.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 08:33 AM   #562
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Originally Posted by theSeb View Post
Seriously? Please read the rest of the discussion after that post. It explains why this isn't just replacing the hard drive with an off the shelf product, because Apple makes it impossible to just replace the hard drive with an off the shelf model due to the use of propriety cables, hard drive firmware and temperature sensors. Apple considers the hard drive to be non user serviceable. Point G says what will happen if you try to upgrade non-user serviceable parts.

I refer you to posts 390, 403, 406 and 413
If you really think what you're saying is true, then you're making the claim that Apple is violating US law with regard to their warranty terms. You'll forgive me if, between that an my own ability to read and understand the warranty terms, I'm less than inclined to believe you're right.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 08:44 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by holden15 View Post
Was that really necessary!? I was simply pointing out that this is the first Apple product that I've even seen that was assembled in the USA.

And besides, it is known, at least here in the US, that products made here a usually higher quality than those made overseas.
what like your cars :$
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 09:03 AM   #564
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Hard drives fail and one can never have enough memory....

Oh, and remember the Capacitor plague that hit early iMac G5's?.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 09:06 AM   #565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmichobo View Post
Image

1993, Apple Colour Classic... Upgradeable RAM via an easily removed logic board, and had a PDS slot.

Image

1997, Apple PowerMac 5500... Upgradeable RAM via a similar slot mounted logic board. Also had a PCI slot.

Note as well in the pic above, Apple's first LCD all-in-one - the TAM - which had a removable back cover, giving access to upgrade the RAM, HDD, CommII and PCI slots...

Just because it's an all in one design does NOT mean it needs to lack upgradeability...

Because it's ridiculously thin, is why there is no upgradeability... I don't care about the lost optical drive... but not giving user upgradeable RAM or HDD options on a desktop machine is an insult to any Mac user with a modicum of knowledge...
Wow. that brings back memories. i used to have a Powermac 7500. it was like the 5500, but without the screen. Before that, i also had an Apple Quadra 800 tower that i bought used for $2,000 and sold for $2,000 3 yrs later! My first two computers back in the mid to late 90s. ;-)

I did add more ram to the 7500. But nothing else. I sold it in 2000 and bought a clamshell iBook. A few yrs later I bought a white iBook. I maxed out the ram on both when i bought them.

And then in 2005 I switched back to a desktop and bought a white 20" iMac, the last G5 imac. I did add more ram myself from crucial, but nothing else. I used that computer until 2010 when it died and went to that big iCloud in the sky. ;-)

Since then I've been using an ipad since I travel a lot. LOVE my ipad mini. But lately, I've been wanting and missing a nice workstation back home.

So I plan to buy an iMac again. I want power since I shoot and edit videos. But looking at my track record, the only thing I ever update seems to be ram. I want the 27" anyway, so it works out, since the 27" has that ram panel in the back. Don't know why Apple left it out of the 21.5" model. So I can see why some people are upset.

But I am not upset about the rest not being upgradeable. I have noticed from my own past, that by the time I was ready to sell my iMacs(or apple desktops) in the past - usually 5 years later - there was something about them that made me not want to upgrade components(even if I could) and just buy a new computer anyway.

Like my last g5 iMac. Had it for 5 yrs. even if I could have upgraded the HD I wouldn't have wanted to, since it choked on playing YouTube videos and couldn't run the latest software.

I guess my point is, if ya really want true upgradability, buy a tower. But even then, technology is moving so fast, there will always be some component that won't work with the latest technology.

Not that I'm advocating disposable computers...cause 5 yrs ain't exactly disposable. But just get what ya need and be productive on it for as long as ya can. Works for me.

I was thinking of getting a Mac mini and Cinema Display and just buying a new Mac mini or MacBook Pro every few yrs when needed. But think I am gonna get the 27" iMac. Cause after pricing a maxed out Mac mini with cinema display, and a 27" iMac, they were roughly the same price....and besides being more powerful for video editing, I can always use the 27" iMac as a Cinema Display 5 yrs down the road if the innards don't keep up with technology and my demands. ;-)
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 09:11 AM   #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Deranger View Post
Yep. Definitely a laptop on a stick.
Yet you don't see laptop owners whining. They long since accepted them for what they are.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 09:18 AM   #567
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Bad idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by flopticalcube View Post
Nope. According to the user in that thread all he had to do was remove the fan.
So a user has to void his or her warranty in order to upgrade the ram, this is ridiculous especially for a desktop.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luap View Post
Man, how many more times is this going to be brought up?
If you think this is the first desktop Mac with a 5400rpm drive, think again.
This is nothing new.
Is the first iMac with 5400 RPM drive since 2004, is definitely a downgrade.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 09:36 AM   #568
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Originally Posted by osaga View Post
Oh darn its not end user serviceable. Neither is your car, or your tv. Who flipp'n cares!
Yes because we're always looking to upgrade our TV's with a new hard drive...oh...no...wait...more ram...no...hmm...

How the hell you managed to compare a TV's serviceability to a computer is beyond me.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 09:40 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by rmwebs View Post
I still don't see the point in the stupid new iMac. Big deal, it's thinner....because everyone NEEDED a thinner DESKTOP machine?!
I addressed this a few pages back. You're thinking about this backwards.

It's not that made it thinner. It's that made what the technology warrants, and did it well.
Laminate the screen to reduce reflections, get a good 21" HDTV-resolution display ... hey, it's really thin.
Select CPU, RAM, GPU, & storage more than adequate for most users, with a few variations on each, all fits in about the space of two stacked card decks ... hey, the guts are really small.
Look at how you can put the two together, take into account efficiency, manufacturing, and aesthetics ... hey, it's an AIO with crazy-thin edges and a modest bump in the center back.

Revisit the old axioms and re-evaluate them.
Most users never upgrade anything in the machine. If they do, it's internal RAM mostly on larger units. With superfast Thunderbolt and USB3, way easier to just plug in an external drive for more storage. If a little slower than screaming fast is acceptable, zero-installation wireless network drives are even easier. All internal hardware is optimized for the processor, so there's not much value in enabling a user to install a future CPU of questionable compatibility.
All that vs. the benefit most customers get from a machine built efficiently to specifications, and no space/cost wasted on rarely-used error-prone upgrade modularity.
So...decide what the unit's specs will be, and build exactly to that for optimum manufacturing cost, maximize what most users want and minimize unwanted/unneeded overhead. Result: compact & thin.

"But repairs!"
Most users don't repair their computer. Most repair centers won't have the optimized components (just like most auto repair shops don't stock BMW parts). Supply chain for repairs is costly & complex, keeping numerous parts on hand for speculative need, and requiring training of thousands with minimal oversight & talent.
So eliminate the repair supply chain. Repair? Replace. Easy enough to get an identical (or even superior!) unit. Other than stored data (which can be copied if it can be copied, and is gone anyway if it can't - "got backups?"), there's no pressing need to repair that unit on the spot. Give the user a replacement from a few in-stock (or overnighted) models, copy data if possible, send broken unit to a central repair service which has all the equipment, parts, and talent needed for optimal repair & refurbishing.
Why repair? when the customer can get a certified factory-quality refurb faster than finding & fixing, with iffy results, the offending part?

It's not that is so much obsessed with thin, it's that the technology - pushed a bit to delight most users and antagonize most competitors - leads to thin design. Everything points in that direction, so push it the rest of the way and reap the benefits.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 09:50 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by Shin3r View Post
Then. Don't. Buy. It.
I would agree with this 100% except for one little detail. The OS. I don't find the Apple hardware to be anything special. It's the OS I'm after.

If I could install it on a system of my choosing, you can bet it wouldn't be a closed architecture like iMac where I'm screwed if my hard drive fails or my system needs more RAM to work better. Apple hardware IS overpriced, but I pay it so I can get what I beleive is the best desktop OS.

I don't like Windows. Plain and simple. I would go with Linux, but it doesn't have the mass hardware support I need and the software, while some if it is pretty good, just doesn't compare with what is written for Windows or Mac OS. Mac OS is my choice due to the hardware/software support (by hardware I mean peripherals) and it's UNIX which works very well with my job as a Linux sysadmin. Linux for desktop use still isn't there.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 09:52 AM   #571
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How the hell you managed to compare a TV's serviceability to a computer is beyond me.
Most users don't service their computers any more than they service their TVs.

And they DO service their TVs: they plug in assorted storage and networking devices, change audio processing, etc. My "AIO" TV was promptly upgraded by attaching a BluRay player, Wii, TV, VCR (!), and someday will have superior speakers attached. Funny, I (and you) didn't whine & moan about an inability to replace the built-in radio receiver, SD card slot, stereo, etc. - we plugged improvements in via standard ports of sufficient bandwidth instead.

Likewise AIO computers: there are 7 upgrade ports, plus WiFi, for improved storage & features. Making the innards user-serviceable would add significant size, complexity, and -blamed user-responsible screwups.

The only warranted quibble is the non-upgradable overpriced RAM options on the 21" - which, again, most users wouldn't be doing themselves anyway.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 10:06 AM   #572
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I can agree with you about harddrives. I've even mentioned as much myself vis Thunderbolt.

But ram? You can't upgrade ram from an external source. Granted, it's gotten to the point where most people don't need to upgrade beyond what the 8GB they get as default. But what about people who are using their iMacs in somewhat of a production capacity? What if they discover they need to upgrade their little 21" iMac from 16GB to 32? Wouldn't it be nice if Apple included a tiny little door on the back you could flip open and slot more in?

See, that's the thing. Apple doesn't have to go out of their way to make their machines upgradeable. The RAM module is already exposed inside the case and facing towards the back. All they have to do is make the slots accessible.

The biggest thing I fear is Apple is realizing that by not making their machines user upgradeable on any front, they can gouge people for extra amounts up front. Right now the 27" can upgrade the ram no problem (not so much the harddrive) but what about the next? Will Apple solder the ram on the board and charge you $399 for 16GB of ram just because they know you won't have any other choice to upgrade later? Don't you all think that's a little ridiculous?
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 10:31 AM   #573
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If they wanted to reduce reflections so bad, why didn't they just use a matt screen? It still looks very reflective.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 10:35 AM   #574
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Well, even tho i plan to get the 27" imac, I do agree that it kinda sucks they didn't put the ram accessible door on the 21.5" iMac too. Kinda forces most people to upgrade their ram as a BTO thru Apple. Since most people won't wanna take their machine apart to upgrade ram.

I hope this doesn't become a trend. Glad they didn't do that with the 27" iMac. I plan to buy it with 8gigs, but definitely see a time down the road where I'll want to add more ram for video editing.

As the previous poster said, you can add an external HD, but you cant add external ram.

Anyway...I am psyched to order the 27" iMac...still deciding on what configuration. The i5 or the i7, wether to get a fusion drive or not, and the 675mx or 680mx GPU? I plan to do video & photo editing with it. Decisions decisions. ;-)
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 10:53 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by ctdonath View Post
Most users don't service their computers any more than they service their TVs.

And they DO service their TVs: they plug in assorted storage and networking devices, change audio processing, etc. My "AIO" TV was promptly upgraded by attaching a BluRay player, Wii, TV, VCR (!), and someday will have superior speakers attached. Funny, I (and you) didn't whine & moan about an inability to replace the built-in radio receiver, SD card slot, stereo, etc. - we plugged improvements in via standard ports of sufficient bandwidth instead.

Likewise AIO computers: there are 7 upgrade ports, plus WiFi, for improved storage & features. Making the innards user-serviceable would add significant size, complexity, and -blamed user-responsible screwups.

The only warranted quibble is the non-upgradable overpriced RAM options on the 21" - which, again, most users wouldn't be doing themselves anyway.
You are joking right?

You're comparing replacing parts, with plugging peripherals in.

If you want a DVD player on your TV, you plug one into its available input ports (I.e HDMI). You dont rip it open and replace part of the internals of the TV.

If you want a DVD in a computer, you open up the computer and install it - adding it to the actual computer.

Plugging in a DVD player to your TV is the equivalent of plugging a USB DVD Rom drive into your computer. It's nowhere near comparable to physically opening up the computer to replace or install a part.

Now, with the older generation iMacs, you could replace the RAM as/when you want - and a lot of people do so to get a bit more life out of the machine, and to avoid paying Apple's pisstake RAM costs. It was a user serviceable part - it even said so in Apple's own documentation, and did not void your warranty. The same applied for hard drives in the Macbooks.

Its not at all possible to compare a TV to a computer when it comes to servicing it - what INTERNAL part of a television would you upgrade?! Most TV's use a single board design, with no user serviceable parts. Most computers use user serviceable RAM, Hard drives, and to a lesser extent, the CPU. The Mac Mini for example - you can replace pretty much any part of that with ease.
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