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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:22 PM   #101
G51989
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What a disaster.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:24 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by flopticalcube View Post
RAM and hard drive upgrades/repairs are fairly commonplace, even (or maybe especially) amongst Mac users. Having said that, I would not be too daunted with this unit. I think iFixit was being a little harsh in giving it a 3. More like a 4, IMO.
I wouldn't be daunted either, I think the 3 was more in order to make a point, than anything else. Maybe the ram being all the way back after having removed the speaker (which didn't seem like the easiest thing to do) is what brought it down to a 3. All this is pretty subjective anyway.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:24 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by HenryDJP View Post
CNET showed the accessible ram slot in the back of the iMac where the plug goes.[COLOR="#808080"]
That is the 27"
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:25 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by flopticalcube View Post
RAM and hard drive upgrades/repairs are fairly commonplace, even (or maybe especially) amongst Mac users. Having said that, I would not be too daunted with this unit. I think iFixit was being a little harsh in giving it a 3. More like a 4, IMO.
Na, I sold computers for 10 years. In fact it's not even common place among people who do their own upgrades/repairs.

Very rarely does the average computer buyer (pc or Mac) repair or upgrade their computer. And even if they do, it's not part of the general user experience. It's a one time thing in the life of the computer (if that).
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:28 PM   #105
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I wonder if people would complain if the iMac was very accessible.

Is this a bad thing now?

at the people who think noone upgrades computer components anymore. It's ridiculously easy and can greatly prolong the life of the computer.

It's best for Apple that you cannot easily get inside the iMac, not best for you.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:31 PM   #106
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Why do some people back Apple on every move they make?

Anyway I think It's troublesome, in the past Memory upgrades could be done by anyone, now not only will we have to pay a premium for the memory modules, but you'll also have to potentially pay for labour costs from Apple..

The same could be said about Hard Drives. The ability to user-service iMacs save us a lot money, especially when the coverage is up.

I think most people like myself will buy the entry level iMac because It's the most affordable..

Apple Memory Upgrade
8GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x4GB
16GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x8GB (Add $200.00)
Mushkin Enhanced 8GB For Apple
8GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 1x8GB (Add $32.99)
8GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x8GB (Add $65.98)
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:32 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by THOPMedia View Post
Na, I sold computers for 10 years. In fact it's not even common place among people who do their own upgrades/repairs.

Very rarely does the average computer buyer (pc or Mac) repair or upgrade their computer. And even if they do, it's not part of the general user experience. It's a one time thing in the life of the computer (if that).
Having repaired Apples and PCs for early 1/4 of a century now, I would beg to differ. There is a vast aftermarket service for RAM and HD upgrades for Macs from the likes of OWC, Crucial and others (hi, CanadaRAM!). Many of these sales were going direct to users and that may now be curbed somewhat, particularly in the RAM sales. Perhaps not the majority, but certainly a double digit minority. For office computers, yeah, they go in and remain untouched until the HD dies.

Looking at the design, there really was no reason for Apple to make the RAM (or even the hard drive but to a lesser extent), non user serviceable. A little door on the back like the 27" would have worked but I suspect Apple wishes to drive buyers into their high margin RAM sales.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:33 PM   #108
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I think it's funny to read how many people are convinced that Apple only builds things this way to make them harder to repair in a self-serving quest for profits.

How much money does anyone think Apple actually makes from component upgrades and repair services? Compared to the rest of their business, it's nothing. A fraction of nothing.

How much do they spend repairing or replacing these products when they fail? A whole lot more than they take in from upgrades.

This company understands the motivations of the average consumer. The average consumer isn't going to open up their computer to replace RAM or a hard drive, no matter how easy it is to any of us. They simply aren't going to do it. When something fails, they'll pay someone to fix it, or they'll just buy a new one. This is true whether or not the component is easy to access or the parts are inexpensive.

Apple has built their business on providing the products and experiences that are important to the average person, not on providing what matters to techies.

The fact is that 99% of the people who buy one of these machines, or any other other non-repairable products that Apple offers are going to be thrilled with them and never even think about the fact that they can't break it open and tinker around inside.

Repairability and user upgradeability are features that only matter to a small fraction of the computer buying population.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:37 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Yamcha View Post
Why do some people back Apple on every move they make?

Anyway I think It's troublesome, in the past Memory upgrades could be done by anyone, now not only will we have to pay a premium for the memory modules, but you'll also have to potentially pay for labour costs from Apple..

The same could be said about Hard Drives. The ability to user-service iMacs save us a lot money, especially when the coverage is up.

I think most people like myself will buy the entry level iMac because It's the most affordable..

Apple Memory Upgrade
8GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x4GB
16GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x8GB (Add $200.00)
Mushkin Enhanced 8GB For Apple
8GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 1x8GB (Add $32.99)
8GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x8GB (Add $65.98)
I guess they worry about Apple's pockets as much as their own. No freaking clue why enough can't be enough. Apple has a segment of people with a fist up the bum using them like puppets. Probably could have raised the prices to 2k for the 21 inch and 3k for the 27 inch entry levels and people would root it on cause it's so thin.

Truth is the back could be on a riser where a user that wanted to could get to the whole interior and change the hard drive (which do fail) and RAM easily. Wouldn't look different from the 2011 model either in doing that design, but Apple and shrills would have to say otherwise of course.

Mac Pro obviously, well yeah who knows on that.

Mac Mini is a joke IMO, mid tower makes more sense to me.

Last edited by Sacird; Dec 1, 2012 at 05:42 PM.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:39 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Yamcha View Post
Why do some people back Apple on every move they make?

Anyway I think It's troublesome, in the past Memory upgrades could be done by anyone, now not only will we have to pay a premium for the memory modules, but you'll also have to potentially pay for labour costs from Apple..

The same could be said about Hard Drives. The ability to user-service iMacs save us a lot money, especially when the coverage is up.
Yes, it's absolutely baffling why a for-profit corporation would do something like this.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:44 PM   #111
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Yes, it's absolutely baffling why a for-profit corporation would do something like this.
What's truly baffling is that people seem to support this and cheer apple on for it.

As a consumer one must be insane, as an investor -sure it's a good thing.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:45 PM   #112
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You're an idiot. One of the most important things with computers is upgradability. Why spend $2000 for a computer only for it to no longer have the minimum requirements needed 3-4 years from now, and then shell out another $2000. It's a waste of money, and resources (so much for environmental sustainability). You are the type of customer that will just shell out money without looking into cheaper alternatives such as upgrading part on the older computer.

In any case, does this concern iFixit's profit line? Yes, of course, they are a business. But you make it sound as though that they are a self-serving business that provide absolutely no positive service for consumer, when that is not the case at all. Their repair guides are extremely useful (which are free and publicly available) and have helped me more than a dozen times in repairing and upgrading my various computers over the years. Oh, and for the record, what does Apple provide for self-servicing your Apple device? Nothing, nada. Apple's technician guides are not publicly distributed (unless you know how to find it online) and the funny thing is there is nothing that is rocket science in those books. Let's just say that if you can build Legos, you can upgrade a computer easily.

And when your warranty runs out and your trackpad breaks down? Should you really have Apple charge you $200 for the repair, when you can do it yourself for $30 by finding the part on eBay and using a little common sense?

If there is any company that is only concerning their own profit-margins without any net benefit to the user, it's Apple. It only benefits them by making Apple computers not upgradable because then it coerces the consumer to buy a new computer. All for what? A microscopic .000001" reduction in thickness that you can't even notice?

Look at the Macbook Pro Retina, which is the worst computer in terms of upgradability. Once the battery craps out (which Applecare won't cover), you have to spend $200 to get it upgraded, and if you did it yourself it would cost $500. Before that model, even the Macbook Pros were considered "unupgradable" but in reality, all you had to do was remove the lid, and unplug the old battery with a new one. It was literally a piece of cake.

tl;dr - Don't blame iFixit, they're providing a valuable service to consumers that Apple, selfishly and deliberately, is hindering. If Apple makes their future Macbook Pros unupgradable (i.e. RAM, Hard Drive, and most importantly the battery), then I will choose not to buy another Macbook and go back to Windows (which I haven't done in 8 years now).
Ok, lets break this down piece by piece shall we?

1. I'm an idiot - Ultra necessary and mature. Really glad we established this as we proceed with the discussion.

2. One of the most important things with computers is upgradability. - Right, especially all-in-ones correct? And ultrabooks, iPads, iphones, new windows 8 tablets that run full windows too? I think one of YOUR priorities might be upgradability, but please, I beg you, find statistics and post them back here on how many computers are sold, and the percentage of people that bust them open and start trying to install new parts. I think we both know the answer to this one, and I bet all-in-ones are even worse compared to standard desktops.

3. Why spend $2000 for a computer only for it to no longer have the minimum requirements needed 3-4 years from now, and then shell out another $2000? - In 4 years time, if you want to bring your computer back into the latest tech? You can't, CPU sockets have probably changed and new ram speeds aren't supported by your motherboard. And the speed these port connections are advancing lately (USB 3, thunderbolt, lightning connectors) they might be unsupported. And of course you'll have to upgrade your operating system, because only windows 8 supports the new Direct X 11.1, nomatter if you upgrade your card or not.

4. You are the type of customer that will just shell out money without looking into cheaper alternatives such as upgrading part on the older computer. - You do not know me, and i've built many machines over the years for rendering. My current mac pro has an upgraded video card, eSata card, ram, as well as a wireless card because I got tired of ethernet cables. And now i'm jumping to an iMac, which I will upgrade with whatever I feel I need to excel at my job at that moment, and quickly get back to work.

5. you make it sound as though that they are a self-serving business that provide absolutely no positive service for consumer, when that is not the case at all. Their repair guides are extremely useful (which are free and publicly available) - If I make it sound like a "self-serving" business, then you make it sound like a charity. (Oh, and most businesses do exist to make money just in case you weren't aware). And what's right next to these precious free guides on their home page? Ta da... a link to their "pro tech toolkit."

6. And when your warranty runs out and your trackpad breaks down? Should you really have Apple charge you $200 for the repair, when you can do it yourself for $30 by finding the part on eBay and using a little common sense? - Do you buy your car parts off ebay and bust open the hood to start adding new chips as well? Again, the massive majority of people don't order new trackpads from ebay, rip open their notebooks and start trying to replace parts with their new found "common sense." I for one, don't have time to try and figure out if it's a driver issue, touch sensor, etc. And then wait for some part to ship from ebay, assuming it's a quality part and not a POS. I go straight to Apple, tell them it's not working and as a business I lose money when their products fail, and they always fix it insanely fast (overnighting parts, which they just did a battery for me a couple months back for a laptop, or straight up giving me a new computer, which has happened twice).

7. Don't blame iFixit, they're providing a valuable service to consumers that Apple, selfishly and deliberately, is hindering. If Apple makes their future Macbook Pros unupgradable (i.e. RAM, Hard Drive, and most importantly the battery), then I will choose not to buy another Macbook and go back to Windows (which I haven't done in 8 years now). - Now this is where I wanted to get and the basic point I'm going to try and make...

Whether you like it or not, Apple, and every other major manufacturer are moving towards all integrated products and chips. Just think, only 10 years ago, all of the chips required for the iphone would have been in a briefcase. And not only that, they all being separate. A chip for GPS, Bluetooth, accelerometer, ram, videocard, Wifi, etc. etc. etc. Now, all manufacturers are smashing this stuff together. Broadcom's chips now incorporate LTE & GSM in one. Samsung and Intel CPU's now have built in graphics chips.

So when it comes to Apple, when they build a computer like the iMac, they don't purchase off the shelf chips as they are, they build custom SOCs and logic boards like no one else's on the market, to make them thinner, lighter, and fit into a more durable unibody. Same with batteries... they don't just glue a bunch of cylinder batteries together inside; they are custom molded into the predefined shape of the shells. And by removing all the connectors, latches and covers that were once used for replaceable batteries on their laptops, they now have more room to build a bigger battery, and keep people working longer.

In the end, it's going to be a sad day for you 5 years from now as more and more companies are starting to build their own hardware (Microsoft?), they are going to do it as they see fit. It's even rumored Apple is about to jump ship from Intel in the next 2-3 years and either contract ARM, or do full custom in-house chips. The world is moving forward, more integrated, smaller and lighter without you.

Oh, and this is really going to break you heart...

http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/29/i...ith-broadwell/
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Last edited by brock2621; Dec 2, 2012 at 11:45 AM.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:48 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by realeric View Post
God! The memory module is glued to the LCD. You can't even change the HDD.
You can change the memory, HDD, and even the CPU if you wish.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:54 PM   #114
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Nope. According to the user in that thread all he had to do was remove the fan.
That looks like a slightly tricky maneuver to seat the RAM modules behind that logic board correctly. I'd try booting it up with the LCD off to make sure it seats well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eim23x View Post
That not correct on RAM, there in the back where power plug is
to push button and RAM slot opens.
lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacFoodPoisoner View Post
I don't disagree essentially, but bear in mind that we are amidst a worldwide financial crises. Very few people even in the west, let alone the millions starving around the globe, can afford the prices apple charge for repairs and components. Besides something needing to be upgradable, it also has to be repairable. And while most people won't open up their imac I am sure most of us have a friend or a family member that's a handy person who'll tweak or do a little repair the cheap way for us when we need it.

Apple is sculpting a premium consumer market that supposedly likes thin and sealed products, with custom ports, and soldered memories (all premium from apple only of course), and custom ssds where industry standards would fit (case in point the ample room in the 13" rmbp where apple is sticking a flash module engolfed in rubber with tons of wasted space). There's planned obsolescence too, another major chapter too long to discuss here.

Their only motivation for that is more, and more, EASY profit, at HUGE margins, far, far wider than anyone in an industry with razor thin margins and a lot of very big players routinely going under, or being on the verge to do so, from sharp, to pioneer, to nokia, to blackberrry etc. etc. Now, there's nothing wrong with a company wanting more profits, but there's a fine line and a lot of question marks as to what extent they are taking advantage of their customers to get to them. I think they are, and I think they are shameless at doing so. And it's not only hardware, it's also for example how they went about colluding with book publishers to get to this market as well, causing an unprecedented increase in ebook prices for the average consumer. They have clout, they are hip, they are a status symbol in many parts of the world, and they have carved out a way of doing things. That doesn't mean their way of doing things won't backfire at some point.

The market of the premium consumer THEY are carving out, is in THEIR opinion not interested in upgrading, or rather in being denied the right to uprade or repair yourself, or have a friend do it, and do so cheaply, and to extend the life of your device thus. That's their opinion. Of course that's the way they can make the most money too. If I were Tim Cook I wouldn't be taking this route, I d be aware that I 've been overcharging for way too long, and that times and fashions change all the time, and I 'd offer my customers more choice, less lock in, more functionality, less pointless styling.
Yup. If you buy an expensive and sexy-welded all-in-one PC then you should bear in mind that you may also have to pay an expensive fee to have it repaired out of warranty. Why bring up starving people around the world not being able to pay Apple's repair fees?

I for one have no idea why people buy iMac's appart from first entries to the mac world. Why would you not just want the apple display and a user-upgradeable/replaceable laptop that won't quit during a power outage and can be taken on a road trip for a couple weeks? I'm excited by a 70% reduced-glare 27" ACD that's soon to follow.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:54 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by brock2621 View Post
Oh, and this is really going to break you heart...

http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/29/i...ith-broadwell/
Eek this is scary..

Motherboards fail all the time..
I've never seen a processor fail.

If you have to replace the processor as well when the motherboard fails... yuck.

Hopefully AMD starts picking up.. or this never happens.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:57 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by gotluck View Post
What's truly baffling is that people seem to support this and cheer apple on for it.

As a consumer one must be insane, as an investor -sure it's a good thing.
And if you're both? (to be fair, I sold at $695. Still waiting to see if there's a good entry point.)
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:57 PM   #117
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Not really, I am not that into these types of websites to be honest, I like more tech news and less gadgety news, I might go for the uk site the register for example, but engadget has some respectability at least, gizmodo too, not too bad... the verge is simply unbearable in the way they suck up to apple, and the fanboism that ensues, I for once can't stomach it...
I can only imagine how painful hanging out on here is.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:58 PM   #118
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3/10 is not just from the screen assembly... did you read the entire tear down?

but the glue heat gun tape thing makes putting it back together a little harder, not just taking it apart.

glueing stuff might work in idevices and batteries for laptops, but now desktops, too? it's sort of going backwards in my view.

----------



you mean "retina" displays? this kind of thinking is not helpful at all. if it is pro-design, then it is advocating the use of glue. if it isn't, it is advocating using gateway2000 pc's.

this guy is talking about the original pc. this rant is tiresome. he speaks of moving on but his own thinking is moving back.
Yes I read the entire thing. It's a cinch to take apart the 21.5" iMac. Heat it up a little, pry it open with a tool or a credit card (!!!!). And then a new strip of adhesive tape. I fail to see the 3/10.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:58 PM   #119
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What's about the warranty?

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Originally Posted by chrf097 View Post
You can change the memory, HDD, and even the CPU if you wish.
Somebody can help me for sure.

1. What happens, when I open my iMac? Applecare? Will I lose the warranty?
2. Can I put any SATA 3 SSD? I've read about heat sensors? It's possible?

Thanks for the reply!
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 06:00 PM   #120
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The ability of people to defend Apple's absurd choices in this thread are simply astounding.

A desktop computer. On which you can't upgrade the RAM. And it makes sense?

Of course it does for Apple. They have a brainwashed user base thinking that it was necessary and justifiable to make such an user-detrimental design choice, so they did.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 06:01 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by sambaphoto View Post
Somebody can help me for sure.

1. What happens, when I open my iMac? Applecare? Will I lose the warranty?
2. Can I put any SATA 3 SSD? I've read about heat sensors? It's possible?

Thanks for the reply!
Warranty is void if they can see that you opened it. Sometimes they look the other way if you did a good job and the repair you are in for is unrelated to your upgrade. With the adhesive tape, however, it won't be too difficult to tell if you have tinkered with it.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 06:03 PM   #122
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So it's going to fall to pieces after 6 months?
Yeah, because American built goods are so bad......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5SRyG6UR2A

Yep, Chinese goods are so much better.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 06:05 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Charcoalwerks View Post
Bad, if you want to upgrade RAM yourself or anything else that requires removing the front glass. Makes me glad I bought a 2011.
Makes me really glad that I opted for Mac mini instead of this gooey mess

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpat View Post
The ability of people to defend Apple's absurd choices in this thread are simply astounding.

A desktop computer. On which you can't upgrade the RAM. And it makes sense?

Of course it does for Apple. They have a brainwashed user base thinking that it was necessary and justifiable to make such an user-detrimental design choice, so they did.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 06:07 PM   #124
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I want to agree with you but I think over 90% of the population have never opened a PC...
Yeah, but 90% of the population doesn't need a computer more powerful than a macbook air. So - why doesn't Apple just stick a macbook air inside an Imac? It would make it x times thinner and lighter. 90% of the population doesn't need thunderbolt. Why doesn't Apple remove those - 5 grams lighter. There are too many USB ports. Most people only need 2. Remove those.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 06:08 PM   #125
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It's looking more and more like an iPad in there. I'm curious when the iMac will ditch the mech drive, the fan, and condense the board further to become a large iPad on a stand. Just a matter of time.

Still curious why they keep the chin. I suppose it gives a placement for the logo.
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