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Old Dec 7, 2012, 01:22 PM   #101
Nale72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroyBoy30 View Post
obviousness you haven't been to a nexus 4 forum
That's correct, I've not been to a nexus 4 forum, because I have not owned a nexus, yet.
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 01:39 PM   #102
Nale72
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Originally Posted by itjw View Post
Major scratches and functional defects are one thing, but we're talking about literally "scuffs" so tiny that no one notices unless they are specifically looking for them (and sometimes it requires the right light, angle, and in some cases a magnifying glass... I'm serious... read the "scuffgate" thread).
I don't think there are many talking of these "unnoticeable" scuffs, needing right light, angle or magnifying glass. I (and I think most of "us" defending the right to a scuff free iPhone 5 out of the box) am talking about "real" scratches, scuffs and flaking, say like 1 mm, where the naked aluminium clearly show. Many hard core Apple fans here are defending them also, saying that "it's just a phone" and buyers should expect and accept these scuffs, since the phone will probably sooner or later get them anyway.

I just wonder, if you for some reason regret your iPhone 5 purchase and want to sell it as used. If that was the case, wouldn't it be easier to sell and sell for more money if it was in mint/flawless condition instead of if it was scratched/scuffed? Looking to myself as the buyer I would at least give more money for a mint iPhone 5 than a scuffed.

If that is the case, that a mint iPhone 5 has a higher resale value than a scuffed one, why would we pay $900 both for a mint and a scuffed one directly from the store?

If they had lowered the price on scuffed phones, say like $700 instead of $900 (or something like that) I would think it was fair. However, I don't think it's fair to pay full price for a scuffed phone compared to a flawless phone, when the scuffed one is not as valuable as the flawless one.

If I wanted a scuffed phone, I would have waited and bought a used phone. Which would be fully functional, just like a new phone, but maybe showing some scuffing and certainly a clearly lower price than for a new one.
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 02:02 PM   #103
itjw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nale72 View Post
I don't think there are many talking of these "unnoticeable" scuffs, needing right light, angle or magnifying glass. I (and I think most of "us" defending the right to a scuff free iPhone 5 out of the box) am talking about "real" scratches, scuffs and flaking, say like 1 mm, where the naked aluminium clearly show. Many hard core Apple fans here are defending them also, saying that "it's just a phone" and buyers should expect and accept these scuffs, since the phone will probably sooner or later get them anyway.

I just wonder, if you for some reason regret your iPhone 5 purchase and want to sell it as used. If that was the case, wouldn't it be easier to sell and sell for more money if it was in mint/flawless condition instead of if it was scratched/scuffed? Looking to myself as the buyer I would at least give more money for a mint iPhone 5 than a scuffed.

If that is the case, that a mint iPhone 5 has a higher resale value than a scuffed one, why would we pay $900 both for a mint and a scuffed one directly from the store?

If they had lowered the price on scuffed phones, say like $700 instead of $900 (or something like that) I would think it was fair. However, I don't think it's fair to pay full price for a scuffed phone compared to a flawless phone, when the scuffed one is not as valuable as the flawless one.

If I wanted a scuffed phone, I would have waited and bought a used phone. Which would be fully functional, just like a new phone, but maybe showing some scuffing and certainly a clearly lower price than for a new one.
Please show me pictures of out of the box damage of more than 1mm. You might find one or two, but the VAST majority of the "scuffs" are tiny and almost unnoticeable unless you look very closely.

Again, I am NOT stating that any amount of damage, no matter how bad, should just be taken. BUT, I am stating that there has to be a reasonable expectation, given that MOST of the OCD complainers in the "scuffgate" thread are most definitely NOT complaining about anything other than tiny specks of "scuffing" on the chamfered edge.

You can be one of the people that thinks any amount of damage is unnaceptable. You are crazy to think that, because on ANY mass produced item there will usually be some MINOR imperfections (read that again if you need to: MINOR... not 1MM or larger, not a scratch across the screen, not multiple dead pixels... but MINOR imperfections).

Your resale value logic is also flawed:

Apple gives you THIRTY DAYS (in some cases 15 through carriers) to return the phone for a FULL refund (that means 100% of "resale" value if it has "damage" out of the box). IF you keep it longer than that, that's your problem. And again, this supposes you agree that only "real" damage is what we're talking about, and NOT teeny tiny specks from machining on the chamfered edge (which I believe are 99% of the "scuffs").

If you keep the phone for a year, by nature of it being aluminum it WILL show some wear. Especially if you USE it. The wear will be FAR more apparent than any specks, so resale value is NOT affected by anything that Apple did to you at the time of purchase.

And please spare me the "I have a PERFECT 4S after a year and a half". No you don't. You might think it is, but on close inspeciton, it's not. Even if you had it in a case and babied it. It just happens over time.

And let say it was... resale value MAY be affected by $20-30 bucks, if that (proven out by sites like Gazelle, eBay, and Amazon with condition differences of Mint and Near Mint). Ironically that's less than you probably spent on the case to KEEP it "Mint" for a year, and you WON'T be getting the "resale" for the case when you sell that.

Sorry, but resale is NOT a valid concern for "scuffgate". Either return it if it has legitimate damage, or keep it if it doesn't (and don't worry one bit about tiny specks that no one except your buddy who returned 17 5's can see if he holds it the right way and looks close).
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 02:50 PM   #104
Nale72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itjw View Post
Please show me pictures of out of the box damage of more than 1mm. You might find one or two, but the VAST majority of the "scuffs" are tiny and almost unnoticeable unless you look very closely.
I myself didn't have any scuffs out of the box, so I can't post any photos of my own. All I can produce is a sample of photos that supposedly were from the box from a fast search on google. But of course I can't validate that it's true:

http://www.theverge.com/2012/9/24/33...photos#3864009

http://mobilesyrup.com/2012/10/10/ap...ut-of-the-box/

http://www.techspot.com/news/50452-i...standards.html

http://www.technobaboy.com/wp-conten...ratches-2.jpeg

http://www.ifans.com/forums/threads/...actory.384782/

Quote:
Originally Posted by itjw View Post
You can be one of the people that thinks any amount of damage is unnaceptable.
I believe I made it pretty clear in my post above that wasn't the case, but maybe you need to read it again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by itjw View Post
You are crazy to think that, because on ANY mass produced item there will usually be some MINOR imperfections (read that again if you need to: MINOR... not 1MM or larger, not a scratch across the screen, not multiple dead pixels... but MINOR imperfections).
I don't think I'm crazy, but thank you very much for you concern. Once again, I think I made it very clear I didn't think that. However, you MIGHT be right that any mass produced item usually has same minor damage, but then it has to be damages that you need a microscope or magnifying glass to see. My experience of buying stuff is that you never (or at least very, very seldom) run across a new item that's cosmetically flawed new from the box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itjw View Post
Your resale value logic is also flawed:

Apple gives you THIRTY DAYS (in some cases 15 through carriers) to return the phone for a FULL refund (that means 100% of "resale" value if it has "damage" out of the box). IF you keep it longer than that, that's your problem. And again, this supposes you agree that only "real" damage is what we're talking about, and NOT teeny tiny specks from machining on the chamfered edge (which I believe are 99% of the "scuffs").

If you keep the phone for a year, by nature of it being aluminum it WILL show some wear. Especially if you USE it. The wear will be FAR more apparent than any specks, so resale value is NOT affected by anything that Apple did to you at the time of purchase.

And please spare me the "I have a PERFECT 4S after a year and a half". No you don't. You might think it is, but on close inspeciton, it's not. Even if you had it in a case and babied it. It just happens over time.
Hey, don't jump the guns here, putting words in my mouth. I have no perfect 4S, or any other Apple product beside my new 5 for that matter. However I would say that my old HTC Desire Z would look mint to most buyers and especially my Xperia Ray, which I would say is pretty flawless (have had both case and screen protector from day one). Both used daily for about one year. But if you say it looks worse than I say it is, I guess I have to take your word on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itjw View Post
And let say it was... resale value MAY be affected by $20-30 bucks, if that (proven out by sites like Gazelle, eBay, and Amazon with condition differences of Mint and Near Mint). Ironically that's less than you probably spent on the case to KEEP it "Mint" for a year, and you WON'T be getting the "resale" for the case when you sell that.
Maybe that can be true in some cases, but I think the difference in resale value for a one year old iPhone in mint condition and one that really shows it has been around for a while is a quite a bit more than that, especially if you have a scratched or broken display. At least that's my experiences from browsing around on the used phones sites here in Sweden, but maybe Americans don't care as much. So I guess I have to take your word on that also, even though my own experiences are different.

And about the cost for protecting my phone against the gain on resale, I'm pretty sure my perfectly good eBay cases for $1 have costed me less. I spend more on my screen protector, but once again, I'm pretty sure I get that value back if I want to sell it later when my screen is flawless compared to a scratched up one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itjw View Post
Sorry, but resale is NOT a valid concern for "scuffgate". Either return it if it has legitimate damage, or keep it if it doesn't (and don't worry one bit about tiny specks that no one except your buddy who returned 17 5's can see if he holds it the right way and looks close).
My experience say otherwise, but maybe I have to believe you that you're experiences are more worth and take your word on it.

I don't have any buddy who returned 17 5's, can't remember saying that either.

However, I still believe it's stupid for anyone to pay the same premium price for a non premium product that another guy pay for a flawless/mint unit and expect them to be satisfied and pleased with the purchase as it's the most normal thing and then tell them to suck it up and accept that they got unlucky this time but that it would look that way in a short while anyway.

Last edited by Nale72; Dec 7, 2012 at 02:55 PM.
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 03:20 PM   #105
itjw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nale72 View Post
However, I still believe it's stupid for anyone to pay the same premium price for a non premium product that another guy pay for a flawless/mint unit and expect them to be satisfied and pleased with the purchase as it's the most normal thing and then tell them to suck it up and accept that they got unlucky this time but that it would look that way in a short while anyway.
I don't recall quoting you on the instances you referenced, but whatever.

How much damage is acceptable to you then? Any of those pictures you linked? Please share with us...

Is it a 1MM "scuff"? Less? More? Why?

You sure seem to be requiring perfection while claiming that you don't.

And you are correct in that I am correct. Resale value fluctuates 10% or so on a phone that is "Mint" vs. one that is "Near Mint" come resale time. My 4S wasn't beat to hell, but it was used. It wasn't scratched up, but it had some screen scratches. I got $30 less than my buddies who never left a case. I save that much on NOT buying screen protectors, cases, and fancy pouches. If you abuse it it's one thing, but normal use will not cause a resale disaster. The resale sites prove this.

And sorry again, but the resale value being affected by "scuffgate" argument is 100% invalid anyway. The "scuffgate" simply doesn't hurt you in any of the ways the OCD folks want to believe it does (besides the horror of having a minor imperfection on their mass produced device). Any major problem can be returned with no harm, and if you keep it you are very likely to do more damage to it anyway.

You came after me by exclaiming how you wish you could get away with what I find acceptable on consumer products. I have made my position 100% clear. Now what do YOU find ok for a $700 product, produced by the millions, to have wrong with it cosmetically? Anything?
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 03:27 PM   #106
lke
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My 2 black 64GB are flawless.

When I have time I will take some high quality photos with my slr camera, then you will trust what I am saying.

Apple cares too much about quality. They would not release flawless products.
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 03:58 PM   #107
Nale72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itjw View Post
How much damage is acceptable to you then? Any of those pictures you linked? Please share with us...

Is it a 1MM "scuff"? Less? More? Why?
I believe that all those examples showed in the pictures I linked to should be ok to return if those were out of the box. I think it's hard to give you a fixed definition on what would be ok. Basically I believe that if a scuff (whatever exact size it is) is obvious, just looking at it and you think it's disturbing, you should have a right to complain about it. But I agree it shouldn't take a special light or a magnifying glass to see. Sorry, but I can't be more specific.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itjw View Post
You sure seem to be requiring perfection while claiming that you don't.
I expect and believe everyone should expect near perfection from the (at least here in Sweden) by far most expensive phone on the market (for example about $250 more than the SIII), which Apple also claim is "jewel-like", "unprecedented level of precision" and "a truly incredible fit and finish". At least out of the box

However, my phone was flawless (in my mind) out of the box and I have had a silicone case or bumper and a screen protector since day one. Somehow I still have lost a flake from the black chamfer just under 1x1 mm beside the volume buttons, under the bumper. Since it doesn't show under the bumper and is so small I don't bother so much about it. Due to the attention "scuffgate" have gotten here in Sweden also I think I might be able to get my phone replaced. But I don't think it's all that important and I also am a little afraid of getting a unit with another, worse, problem. But if another person in my position had gone to the seller and asked for a replacement I wouldn't have thought it was strange and I wouldn't say he was crazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itjw View Post
And you are correct in that I am correct. Resale value fluctuates 10% or so on a phone that is "Mint" vs. one that is "Near Mint" come resale time. My 4S wasn't beat to hell, but it was used. It wasn't scratched up, but it had some screen scratches. I got $30 less than my buddies who never left a case. I save that much on NOT buying screen protectors, cases, and fancy pouches. If you abuse it it's one thing, but normal use will not cause a resale disaster. The resale sites prove this.

And sorry again, but the resale value being affected by "scuffgate" argument is 100% invalid anyway. The "scuffgate" simply doesn't hurt you in any of the ways the OCD folks want to believe it does (besides the horror of having a minor imperfection on their mass produced device). Any major problem can be returned with no harm, and if you keep it you are very likely to do more damage to it anyway.
Ok, if you say so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itjw View Post
You came after me by exclaiming how you wish you could get away with what I find acceptable on consumer products. I have made my position 100% clear.
No, I never said I wanted to get away with anything. Now you're reading things into what I said. What I was expressing was what I believe anyone should have the right to expect and accept from a premium product like the iPhone 5. I also thought I had my position as clear, but obviously not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itjw View Post
Now what do YOU find ok for a $700 product, produced by the millions, to have wrong with it cosmetically? Anything?
I now hope that you have gotten a better idea what I find ok for a (in Sweden) $900 product. But to clarify, I would have these (tough to some of you) expectations out of the box on a $650 SIII or a $400 Xperia or a $200 Huawei also. I expect a new product out of the box to the naked eye to be next to flawless. And that's regardless it's a relatively cheap phone or an expensive one. But I have to say that I have a little higher expectations on a top of the line Apple product like the iPhone than a low budget Huawei.

Previous Apple products that I've seen have made me believe that Apple make products with the highest quality standards and this is also what Apple users and Apple themselves time and time again let us know that we should expect. I, personally, just don't believe that Apple have lived up to their own, admittedly very high, standards when it comes to the iPhone 5. And from what I've read from some posts on this forum after them "informally" talking to Apple representatives, Apple admit they have productions problems with this phone.
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 04:26 PM   #108
Phrygian
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threads like these are food for people who hate on the apple community.

Honestly... who needs to buy 3-4 different versions of the same phone just cause it has tiny scratch...
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 05:30 PM   #109
nascimento
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itjw View Post
Major scratches and functional defects are one thing, but we're talking about literally "scuffs" so tiny that no one notices unless they are specifically looking for them (and sometimes it requires the right light, angle, and in some cases a magnifying glass... I'm serious... read the "scuffgate" thread).

I NEVER stated that you should accept anything with serious damage or functional issues, but I do 100% believe that there HAS to be a line where the "damage" is reasonably acceptable due to how tiny it is and how it in NO way effects the usage of the device.

If you really believe that anything (regardless of price) that is mass produced is "flawless", you clearly aren't using the same standard that the OCD crowd is applying to the iP5.
As I said Im in the luxury retail market and I dont know what you guys are on about. None of my clients would accept any kind of scratches or blemishes on the things I sell and some are cheaper than the Iphone. I dont personally know anyone that would actually enter one of my shops and accept a product that had visible defects be they small or large. Nor should they and it has nothing to do with functionality.

There is NO plausible reason to accept a brand new product that has a scratch on it out of the box. Im sure that most of the Iphone 5 (s) NOW come without scratches but the scratches will appear very soon with very light use and no fault of the user. The finish on the bezel, where most of the scratches happen, is just sub standard for a product of this price and quality.
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 06:24 PM   #110
mirekti
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...and this is the thinnest smartphone http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqUjUaiNv1w not iPhone 5

Really pissed off coz the bezel issue.
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 06:33 PM   #111
Grolubao
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Really, this is so epic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...53_pOSM#t=242s

What a fail...
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 07:06 PM   #112
mirekti
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This is what Apple ment for me in the past
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=-CnKbphRfK4

Oh, I have to stop complaining here. Nobody from Apple is looking at this anyway.
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 11:33 PM   #113
richard13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekelani View Post
You can't be serious? For two days and it says 90%?? How is that even possible?
Have you been using your iPhone throughout that day or leaving it idol ??
Actually, I am serious. But to be honest with you I have only been making light use of my iPhone 5 so your suspicion is also correct. This is not typical for me so I don't expect this kind of performance in the long-run.

That said, when compared to my old iPhone 4 and my returned Lumia 920 under similar usage conditions, the iPhone 5 seems much more power efficient.
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 11:52 PM   #114
Sekelani
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itjw View Post
Major scratches and functional defects are one thing, but we're talking about literally "scuffs" so tiny that no one notices unless they are specifically looking for them (and sometimes it requires the right light, angle, and in some cases a magnifying glass... I'm serious... read the "scuffgate" thread).

I NEVER stated that you should accept anything with serious damage or functional issues, but I do 100% believe that there HAS to be a line where the "damage" is reasonably acceptable due to how tiny it is and how it in NO way effects the usage of the device.

If you really believe that anything (regardless of price) that is mass produced is "flawless", you clearly aren't using the same standard that the OCD crowd is applying to the iP5.
Agreed

----------

I agree with this.
We cannot expect a 100% perfect product.
Us human beings are not even 100% perfect, we make these devices so how can we expect our products to be absolutely perfect?
I agree with have a product in good quality yes. We paid for Thai products and need the best quality ever.
But to want a product that is basically impossible to craft to magnifying perfect quality is not realistic.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 12:58 PM   #115
Algo922
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would "screen distortion" be considered a flaw? i mean, putting mild pressure on some areas of the iphone screen to where u can see some distortion in some parts like how this guy does it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4kYbiygU6A I know it's using a different screen from previous generations but would this be considered a fault? I havent seen anyone post something related to this, granted i skimmed parts of this thread lol
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