Register FAQ / Rules Forum Spy Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MacRumors Forums > News and Article Discussion > MacRumors.com News Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Dec 4, 2012, 04:41 PM   #51
cmChimera
macrumors 68000
 
cmChimera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
Which in all probability is the same issue. Again folks :

30" ACD ran at 2560x1600 like 5-6 years ago. GPUs aren't the problem, it's something in the HiDPI software stack.

I personally wouldn't trade my rMBP 15" for the world.
I hope you're right.
cmChimera is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 04:57 PM   #52
MacFoodPoisoner
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
You're saying the same thing I am except making a few wrong assumptions. The resolution isn't doubled then halved at all in HiDPI mode, it's only downscaled after upscaling if you use the scaled modes (1680x1050 or 1920x1200). Running at 1440x900 (2880x1800) only upscales non-Retina graphics to 2880x1800 and leaves it at that. Running 1920x1200 (which I run permenantly) runs a 3840x2400 framebuffer which it then downscales to 2880x1800 for displaying on the display.

And what I've been saying all along is quite correct, the problem is not the pixel pushing ability of the GPU. Pixel fill rates, look them up. Again, if you can't understand that a 4 year old GPU, the 9400m, could power a 30" ACD and that we're now in 2012, 4 years later, with GPUs 3 generations newer, I don't know how to explain it to you.

The 9400m could push 2.32 GP/s. Again, 4 years ago. 2880x1800 at 60 fps is roughly 311 MP/s. Are you getting this ? Even if what you say is true and HiDPI was so horridly optimized as you claim (which it isn't), that's still only half of the pixel fill rate of a now 4 year old Integrated GPU.

Anyway, I own a rMBP 15" and I've hardly met any "lag" whatsoever. I guess some people are just too sensitive. Thank god Apple knows it's a software issue and is fixing it for those people.

----------



The hardware is capable. You just don't understand GPU hardware or HiDPI to make such claims. Anand has always been full of it.
The only thing I agree with you is about the "fullness" of Anand.

I understand perfectly well what I am taking about. You are right though that at native it's just rendered pixel doubled. But in any other scaled mode it's exactly as I decribed it. Let me remind you that the ACD at 30" has a 2560 × 1600, that's about 4 million pixels, in 1920x1200 (and to a lesser extent in 1650x) we are talking about (2x2=4 times) 9.2 million pixels for the video card to draw, and then operate the scaler down to retina resolution. That's two and 1/4 acds. If it's the "software" (and it's simple operations that prove that's not the case) then how come even after ml the ui lags and stutters have not been solved?
MacFoodPoisoner is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 05:25 PM   #53
Risco
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Wow, much better on my MBP without retina! Also seems to have fixed the rendering issues where you get a black line.
__________________
15" Macbook Pro 2012, 2.3ghz, 8GB Ram, 256GB SSD | iPhone 5s 32GB Space Grey
Risco is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 05:26 PM   #54
beestigbeestje
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Belgium
Send a message via AIM to beestigbeestje
Definitly smoother.

This is one of the many updates still to come for the retina macbook pro

http://www.macpoint.be/thoughts-on-t...etina-display/

The only hardware issues the retina's have are image retention.
If I can play borderlands 2 at native resolution with high settings on this, I'm not thinking it's a hardware problem.
__________________
Santa Rosa Macbook pro 2.4Ghz 4gb RAM
Retina Macbook Pro 15 inch 2,6ghz 16gb ram
iPhone 4 - AppleTV 2 - iPad 2

Last edited by beestigbeestje; Dec 5, 2012 at 04:34 AM.
beestigbeestje is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 05:42 PM   #55
psykick5
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
PUSH IT PUSH IT COME ON!! This has been one of my biggest gripes.
psykick5 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 05:56 PM   #56
PalacePlayers
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Holy mother of God, I've been waiting for this news since the day I got my retina MacBook Pro. Safari for rMBP has been the single most crappy product they've ever released. It was so bad it's almost impossible to understand how they released it in the first place. Scrolling in sites like facebook and pitchfork was so bad I thought about returning the machine.

However, now that nightly has a fix, what are the chances of this being incorporated in the next Safari update? When do you guys think it will be released?
__________________
 MacBook Pro with Retina 512 GB, 2.6 GHz, 16 GB RAM /  iPad Air 128 GB /  iPhone 5 64 GB
PalacePlayers is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 06:16 PM   #57
mdriftmeyer
macrumors 68020
 
mdriftmeyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pacific Northwest
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhand1001 View Post
Apple didn't do anything, webkit did which is mostly people from KHTML which is what webkit was forked from.
All of WebKit has nothing of KHTML in it. The QTWebKit port is being backported to KDE's structure and I would appreciate if people realized that for the past 5 years nothing from KDE has existed in any Apple WebKit code.
mdriftmeyer is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 06:27 PM   #58
myxomatosis
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Montréal
Send a message via Skype™ to myxomatosis
Installed. Instantly noticed a difference on Facebook, Neowin.net and Gizmodo/Lifehacker.

I’m a happy man, it made my day! Choppy scrolling in Safari was the most annoying thing on my rMBP.
__________________
Sorry for my English, not my primary language

• Retina MacBook Pro (2012)
CPU: 2.3GHz・RAM: 16GB・SSD: 256GB・OS X 10.9
myxomatosis is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 06:49 PM   #59
Formul
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Czech Republic
Damn the difference is incredible on my 2011 Air! In fact everything in the browser seems so much faster.
Formul is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 06:56 PM   #60
JPOWA
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
This is great not only for the Retina line!

My 15" rMBP is flying now And my 2009 iMac too
JPOWA is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 07:31 PM   #61
KimJongEun
macrumors newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Hopefully Apple implements this into Safari soon. Scrolling full screen on my top-end 2011 27" iMac is horrible.

My wife, who knows little about computers, even asked me why a $2400 (I live in South Korea) computer couldn't even scroll down a webpage without choking.
__________________
27" 2011 iMac, 3.1GHz i5, 8GB RAM, 1TB HD, HD6970M
Audinst HUD-MX1 USB DAC, Sennheiser HD598
KimJongEun is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 07:42 PM   #62
KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
 
KnightWRX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Quebec, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacFoodPoisoner View Post
The only thing I agree with you is about the "fullness" of Anand.

I understand perfectly well what I am taking about. You are right though that at native it's just rendered pixel doubled. But in any other scaled mode it's exactly as I decribed it. Let me remind you that the ACD at 30" has a 2560 × 1600, that's about 4 million pixels, in 1920x1200 (and to a lesser extent in 1650x) we are talking about (2x2=4 times) 9.2 million pixels for the video card to draw, and then operate the scaler down to retina resolution. That's two and 1/4 acds. If it's the "software" (and it's simple operations that prove that's not the case) then how come even after ml the ui lags and stutters have not been solved?
Because the software scalers probably aren't yet fully optimized at all. There's probably still a ton of operations left up to the CPU, not the GPU, so it's not fully using the pixel fill rate capability of the GPU and it's getting bogged down by the process scheduler.

Anyway it's moot, most people are not running the scaled modes, using plain old 1440x900 points (2880x1800 pixels) and getting this lag, so it's obvious there's something wrong with Apple's scaler in Quartz Extreme. Let's face it, HiDPI mode is quite new and it's not like Apple has ever been quick at optimizing their graphics stack (look at how long it took them for OpenGL 3.2..).

The GPU itself can do, again, way more than 2.32 GP/s. That's Gigapixels, billions of pixels per seconds. It's quite enough to run the resolution and do proper updating at 60 fps. Something else is amiss in the software stack where we're not getting done with a frame in less than 15 ms (the maximum render time per frame to maintain 60 fps).

I maintain this isn't a hardware problem at all.
__________________
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
-- Pericles
KnightWRX is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 07:43 PM   #63
GrandPhrase
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Will this most likely be implemented in 10.8.3?
__________________
iPhone 5, 13" Macbook Pro, iPad 3
GrandPhrase is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 07:45 PM   #64
KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
 
KnightWRX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Quebec, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post
All of WebKit has nothing of KHTML in it. The QTWebKit port is being backported to KDE's structure and I would appreciate if people realized that for the past 5 years nothing from KDE has existed in any Apple WebKit code.
For the last 5 years, WebKit has not been an Apple only project. Heck, 2 years ago, Google surpassed Apple in terms of raw commits to the code base. Of course WebKit has evolved since its days as KHTML, it still is a fork of KHTML, and is maintained by quite a few folk outside of Apple. In fact, Apple aren't even the main contributors anymore.
__________________
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
-- Pericles
KnightWRX is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 08:10 PM   #65
Formul
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Czech Republic
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
For the last 5 years, WebKit has not been an Apple only project. Heck, 2 years ago, Google surpassed Apple in terms of raw commits to the code base. Of course WebKit has evolved since its days as KHTML, it still is a fork of KHTML, and is maintained by quite a few folk outside of Apple. In fact, Apple aren't even the main contributors anymore.
Thats all fine, but google keeps a lot of its top improvements in their forked chrome project while everything apple does is available to benefit everyone.
Formul is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 08:12 PM   #66
KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
 
KnightWRX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Quebec, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Formul View Post
Thats all fine, but google keeps a lot of its top improvements in their forked chrome project while everything apple does is available to benefit everyone.
That's not true at all sorry :

http://trac.webkit.org/wiki/WebKit%20Team
__________________
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others."
-- Pericles
KnightWRX is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 08:51 PM   #67
CausticPuppy
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: May 2012
So I just installed the latest build.


Holy crap.


I actually thought Safari behaved pretty well and never had any complaints about scrolling performance, but now my rMBP performs better than any of my other computers in heavy sites like The Verge and Facebook.

And I only have the lowly HD4000.


I hope this makes it into a Safari update!



Oh yeah, it's totally a hardware problem.
__________________
2011 Mac Mini Server, 16 GB RAM, 256GB Crucial M4 SSD, 500GB HDD + 3TB NAS
Haswell rMBP 13" - i7/512GB
Mac Mini 1.83GHz Core2Duo, 3GB RAM, 60GB SSD
iPad Air/iPhone5S
CausticPuppy is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 11:21 PM   #68
Aspen
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puevlo View Post
So why did Apple release a product that clearly wasn't ready yet?
They unfortunately do what all tech companies seem to do. Push out products to the public that are not ready; keeps the profits going. The public is part of the testing ground more frequently now.

I sure hope Apple rights this boat and doesn't end up like Microsoft, Dell, HP, Cisco, etc.

If you are reading this Apple, I sent my 13" rMBP back because of the scroll lag. When you get it fixed, I'll be buying it again but not until then.
Aspen is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 4, 2012, 11:28 PM   #69
Melons
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
This just made scrolling even smoother then my high end Windows computer. I do miss chrome though...
Melons is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 5, 2012, 12:41 AM   #70
SethBoy
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Does the UI still lag when the rMBP is connected to an external display in clamshell mode?
SethBoy is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 5, 2012, 01:31 AM   #71
AirThis
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
People here are missing the point. This only fixes the issue for some websites.

- The Verge is still choppy as are many other websites.
- Webkit crashes in double tap mode.
- Webkit slows down the UI frame rate (it's measureable). And no, it's not a memory leak. I did all the tests for that.

Bottom line: not ready for prime time.
__________________
Mac Mini 2009 - Iphone 4 16GB - rMBP 2.6 - Time Capsule 2TB
AirThis is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 5, 2012, 02:30 AM   #72
Snowshiro
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by valexa View Post
this was specific to bad Safari performance, its looks marginally acceptable in Chrome as it is.
I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that Chrome forces the discrete GPU to fire up (which gives smoother results at the cost of battery life) whereas Safari uses the integrated Intel 4000HD, which is why it was struggling.
Snowshiro is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 5, 2012, 03:13 AM   #73
MacFoodPoisoner
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
Because the software scalers probably aren't yet fully optimized at all. There's probably still a ton of operations left up to the CPU, not the GPU, so it's not fully using the pixel fill rate capability of the GPU and it's getting bogged down by the process scheduler.

Anyway it's moot, most people are not running the scaled modes, using plain old 1440x900 points (2880x1800 pixels) and getting this lag, so it's obvious there's something wrong with Apple's scaler in Quartz Extreme. Let's face it, HiDPI mode is quite new and it's not like Apple has ever been quick at optimizing their graphics stack (look at how long it took them for OpenGL 3.2..).

The GPU itself can do, again, way more than 2.32 GP/s. That's Gigapixels, billions of pixels per seconds. It's quite enough to run the resolution and do proper updating at 60 fps. Something else is amiss in the software stack where we're not getting done with a frame in less than 15 ms (the maximum render time per frame to maintain 60 fps).

I maintain this isn't a hardware problem at all.
You make a very convincing argument. But what if in a typical apple fashion they aim to not optimize the code but offload it to better hardware next year?
MacFoodPoisoner is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 5, 2012, 05:12 AM   #74
EEXOOO
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
I'm using a 1440p external monitor with my CMBP 2011 6490m and noticing significant improvements in scrolling.
EEXOOO is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 5, 2012, 07:18 AM   #75
CausticPuppy
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: May 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by AirThis View Post
People here are missing the point. This only fixes the issue for some websites.

- The Verge is still choppy as are many other websites.
- Webkit crashes in double tap mode.
- Webkit slows down the UI frame rate (it's measureable). And no, it's not a memory leak. I did all the tests for that.

Bottom line: not ready for prime time.
Once all the images are loaded (by scrolling once down the entire page) The Verge seems fine for me. I still get some hiccups as images are loaded.

Of course it's not ready for prime time, these are just nightly builds, not Safari release candidates. It does illustrate what can happen when software is optimized.
__________________
2011 Mac Mini Server, 16 GB RAM, 256GB Crucial M4 SSD, 500GB HDD + 3TB NAS
Haswell rMBP 13" - i7/512GB
Mac Mini 1.83GHz Core2Duo, 3GB RAM, 60GB SSD
iPad Air/iPhone5S
CausticPuppy is offline   0 Reply With Quote

Reply
MacRumors Forums > News and Article Discussion > MacRumors.com News Discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
13" Macbook Pro Performance / Scrolling FPS james010101 MacBook Pro 0 Oct 29, 2013 05:18 AM
Macbook Pro/Retina Scrolling Inconsistent cap7ainclu7ch MacBook Pro 0 Mar 31, 2013 09:20 PM
Latest WebKit Build Doubles Scrolling Performance on MacBook Pro with Retina Display joshhedge MacBook Pro 2 Dec 4, 2012 12:14 PM
More on MacBook Pro Retina Scrolling Issues sa7078 MacBook Pro 1 Jul 5, 2012 11:48 AM
About the scrolling lag on the retina Macbook Pro... Panini MacBook Pro 10 Jul 1, 2012 09:40 AM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:07 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC