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Old Dec 5, 2012, 03:08 PM   #51
rmwebs
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This is not true at all. Songs do come and go. Labels have the right to pull their content down and this has happened many times before.

Also, songs disappear due to regional restrictions as well.
The same can be said for iTunes, or your local music shop.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 03:09 PM   #52
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If apple does this hopefully they add a scrobble feature similar to Last.fm
I know a lot of people in the USA use pandora but the lack of scrobbling and the very low amount of international music on there is just plain disappointing to me.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 03:13 PM   #53
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then there's the ethical issue of spotify: their payments to artists for streams are laughably low, so much so that lady gaga famously made $162 last year in one month for over 1 million plays. that's not a typo.

but do I have a subscription? you bet. I listen to so much new music that I would go broke if I bought it all, and this saves much more time than downloading it from soulseek.
Hey, most of us music lovers were always broke buying new music. Yet somehow you and a lot of people in the digital age feel entitled to get it for free, or near-free, even as you acknowledge the ethical problems with Spotify.

The more people use streaming services (instead of purchasing), the less artists, record labels, and the whole industry can survive. And the less music artists there are, the more the ones that remain will be lowest-common-denominator trash. We're already seeing that happen.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 03:52 PM   #54
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Who cares? Apple cannot even keep their damn IOS 6 and Mac apps stores running so users can grab their updates. 2 days in a row. I have no faith they can firmly offer any additional services when the one they offer now sucks so freaking bad.
What are you talking about? Been updating without any issues at all.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 03:59 PM   #55
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iTunes has grown quite a bit over the years, too. It started out only selling music and now you use it as your one-stop digital store for iPhone/iPod apps, e-books, TV shows and movies too.

I don't think streaming radio could ever "destroy" all of that?

Bottom line, though: One service requires a constant internet connection and the other (playing MP3 music you bought and saved on your device) doesn't.

Spotify and Pandora might be hurting iTunes music sales to an extent, but that doesn't mean it makes good financial sense for Apple to throw a bunch more money at imitating them.

I don't really see where such a thing would fit well with Apple's existing offerings either? I mean, what's wrong with the $25 a year iCloud music subscription so those who want to can stream their purchased music from anywhere? At least it's not like Pandora, where you're only served up what THEY want you to hear, with little control beyond giving songs a "thumbs up" or "thumbs down".

If Apple started some kind of streaming radio, it seems like it would just compete with themselves for music sales?
but they already do compete with themselves.

they knew the ipad would hurt pc sales and it did but they accepted that pcs were dying anyways.

same with music

imagine a service - FREE - that provides u with all the music u want to listen to simply by owning an iphone?!?

why that would get the word out better than spotify!
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 04:15 PM   #56
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In contrast to Amazon's attempt to lock ebook prices at $9.99 (which means selling at a loss in some cases) in order to establish a stranglehold on the market?
Apparently you are such an apple fundamentalist that you would rather pay $15.99 than $9.99 ("the customer pays a bit more but that's what you want (you the publishers) anyway") on ebooks because apple wanted their 30% cut.

What amazon was doing was perfectly legal, hundreds of thousands of businesses sell at a loss for their strategic purposes. And since both the DOJ nor the European Union Authorities, with their numerous legal teams have both concluded that apple broke the law while amazon did not, I am inclined to side with them.

I am sure you will not agree, but that's understandable since you seem like the kind of person so blinded by the cult of apple that if they found Eddie Cue or anyone from apple screwing their wife they 'd still find some way to rationalize it in favor of apple, like you know, "everyone has needs", "the poor guy must have wanted to have a look at the set up of my mac and she threw herself on him", etc.

Anyway back to my original comment, my point was that I wouldn't call someone who intentionally broke the law and is being taken to court on both sides of the Atlantic a "master negotiator". A crooked negotiator willing to bend the law in their favor would be more apt.

And next time guys you go online to buy a book, not just at amazon, anywhere, and you see the ebook being more expensive than the actual hardback with paper, manufacturing, and shipping costs, you know who you got to thank: your pal Eddie Cue.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 04:25 PM   #57
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Apparently you are such an apple fundamentalist that you would rather pay $15.99 than $9.99
Wrong-o.

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What amazon was doing was perfectly legal
I never said it wasn't. That said, I don't find it a business practice that's healthy for the consumer in the long run.

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Originally Posted by MacFoodPoisoner View Post
I am sure you will not agree, but that's understandable since you seem like the kind of person so blinded by the cult of apple that if they found Eddie Cue or anyone from apple screwing their wife they 'd still find some way to rationalize it in favor of apple
Wrong-o again.

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And next time guys you go online to buy a book, not just at amazon, anywhere, and you see the ebook being more expensive than the actual hardback with paper, manufacturing, and shipping costs, you know who you got to thank: your pal Eddie Cue.
Even Amazon hasn't been able to make digital media a reasonable value proposition over physical media in most cases, but I'm sure that's Eddie Cue's fault too.

And we'll see how you feel when Amazon has loss-leadered themselves into the only game in town and are then free to charge whatever they want (you think they plan to run on 2% margins forever, hmm?).
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 04:40 PM   #58
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And this is exactly why Apple is working on this. .
You mean that is why folks think Apple must be working on this. We ave yet to have real proof they are or ever intend to

----------

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Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
Hmm...perhaps Cue's portfolio is too big? He has a lot on his plate, and plenty of issues with maps, Siri, iCloud, iMessage, etc. throw in negotiations with record companies, cable TV companies, content providers, etc. that's a lot.
Yeah and he has to do it all by himself. Just like Jony does all the designs, tests them and rights all the software himself

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Originally Posted by MacFoodPoisoner View Post
Weren't Eddy's "masterful negotiating skills" responsible for apple colluding with several publishers thus managing to increase the prices of ebooks and hurt consumers worldwide because they wanted their guaranteed 30% cut off of each book sold? I wonder how "well respected in the business" someone should be when they have both the DOJ and the European Union authorities going after them... I would put that person down as a bit of a crook, but that's just my opinion.
The DOJ hasn't actually determined that Apple was party to any collusion.

But don't let facts get in your way
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 04:40 PM   #59
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Wrong-o.



I never said it wasn't. That said, I don't find it a business practice that's healthy for the consumer in the long run.



Wrong-o again.



Even Amazon hasn't been able to make digital media a reasonable value proposition over physical media in most cases, but I'm sure that's Eddie Cue's fault too.

And we'll see how you feel when Amazon has loss-leadered themselves into the only game in town and are then free to charge whatever they want (you think they plan to run on 2% margins forever, hmm?).
They will never be free to charge whatever they want. As soon as they start charging more, someone will sell cheaper and take their clients away from them. Apple on the other hand managed in collusion with the publishers to change pretty much the whole de facto standard of doing business so NO ONE COULD charge less and compete with them.

I don't doubt Eddie Cue is skillful at his job otherwise he wouldn't be there. But I find it hard to stomach praise for someone I know has deliberately tried to screw me over as a consumer (and succeeded in doing so). And I think it's hardly appropriate to call someone "well respected" when they are being sued on both sides of the Atlantic.

Like I said next time guys you go online to buy a book, not just at amazon, anywhere, and you see the ebook being more expensive than the actual hardback with paper, manufacturing, and shipping costs, you know who you got to thank: your pal Eddie Cue.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 04:44 PM   #60
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What amazon was doing was perfectly legal,
That has also not been verified. It is possible that if it were examined Amazon would be found guilty of predatory pricing due to their price points and favored nation requirements
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 04:47 PM   #61
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The DOJ hasn't actually determined that Apple was party to any collusion.

But don't let facts get in your way
This is a blatant lie, and you are well aware of it, one has to be delusional to think otherwise.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 04:50 PM   #62
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They will never be free to charge whatever they want. As soon as they start charging more, someone will sell cheaper and take their clients away from them.
Here's the big difference. Once you have a stranglehold on digital retail (Amazon), or digital data (Google), who in the world is going to be able to step in and compete? No one.

I don't fear Apple because they sell me gadgets. They will never have a monopoly on gadgets. I could walk away from Apple right now - sell my iMac, sell my iPhone, buy some plastic heap from Dell or Samsung, and go on as normal. Dell, HP and RIM are proof-positive that there's no iron-clad control of the hardware market.

The digital world is a different beast entirely. Try walking away from Google. Apple tried - with Maps - and look what happened. And in 5 years' time, try walking away from Amazon, when the Best Buys and the FutureShops of the world are gone. These companies will have you by the shorthairs and there won't be anything you'll be able to do about it. We're creating monsters and we don't realize it.

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Like I said next time guys you go online to buy a book, not just at amazon, anywhere, and you see the ebook being more expensive than the actual hardback with paper, manufacturing, and shipping costs, you know who you got to thank: your pal Eddie Cue.
Amazon eBooks were already more expensive than paper books without Eddie Cue's involvement.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 04:54 PM   #63
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That has also not been verified. It is possible that if it were examined Amazon would be found guilty of predatory pricing due to their price points and favored nation requirements
Nobody chose to "examine" apple and "neglected to examine" amazon. What amazon was doing was perfectly legal, period. Amazon also has plenty of competition from b&n, and others. Apple's scheme dictated that no one would be able to compete with them. Actually no one would be able to compete with anyone and in a non competitive market apple would, with the proliferation of their devices, gobble it up, and dominate it.

Twist this story up as much as you want, with all respect you are not talking to idiots, even though you d expect someone to be colossally idiotic to agree with what you are claiming here. Apple in collusion with major publishers was involved in one of largest cases of an organized attempt to price fix and defraud the consumer. Their actions were shameful and the damage to consumers' wallets immeasurable.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 05:07 PM   #64
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Twist this story up as much as you want, with all respect you are not talking to idiots, even though you d expect someone to be colossally idiotic to agree with what you are claiming here. Apple in collusion with major publishers was involved in one of largest cases of an organized attempt to price fix and defraud the consumer. Their actions were shameful and the damage to consumers' wallets immeasurable.
Oh please. From by Charles Schumer (D-NY) arguing against the DOJ suit, as published in the Wall Street Journal:

Quote:
The suit will restore Amazon to the dominant position atop the e-books market it occupied for years before competition arrived in the form of Apple. If that happens, consumers will be forced to accept whatever prices Amazon sets.
Quote:
The e-books marketplace provides a perfect example of the challenges traditional industries face in adapting to the Internet economy. Amazon took an early lead in e-book sales, capturing 90% of the retail market. Because of its large product catalog, Amazon could afford to sell e-books below cost.
Quote:
Then the market changed. Apple entered and negotiated an agency model with publishers, in which the publisher could establish a retail price and Apple would take a percentage cut. The result was increased competition. Amazon's market share quickly eroded to 60%, and consumers had multiple platforms through which to purchase digital books. Amazon was forced to expand its catalog, invest in innovation, and reduce the prices of its Kindle reading devices.
Quote:
Most importantly, the average price for e-books fell to $7 from $9, according to a filing in the case.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...023581798.html

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of where the real threat to your wallet lies.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 05:17 PM   #65
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Here's the big difference. Once you have a stranglehold on digital retail (Amazon), or digital data (Google), who in the world is going to be able to step in and compete? No one.

I don't fear Apple because they sell me gadgets. They will never have a monopoly on gadgets. I could walk away from Apple right now - sell my iMac, sell my iPhone, buy some plastic heap from Dell or Samsung, and go on as normal. Dell, HP and RIM are proof-positive that there's no iron-clad control of the hardware market.

The digital world is a different beast entirely. Try walking away from Google. Apple tried - with Maps - and look what happened. And in 5 years' time, try walking away from Amazon, when the Best Buys and the FutureShops of the world are gone. These companies will have you by the shorthairs and there won't be anything you'll be able to do about it. We're creating monsters and we don't realize it.

Amazon eBooks were already more expensive than paper books without Eddie Cue's involvement.
No that's not the case at all. They were considerably cheaper. Please, this is sheer disinformation.

As to the rest you are saying, I don't necessarily disagree with some of it, but it's a broader discussion, on the merits of free market capitalism as it manifests itself in the digital age and the concentration of power. Esp. so with data, see facebook and google. There I agree 100%. But that's something too broad to tackle here, hundreds of millions of people around the globe live in poverty and a lot of them starve to death, it's a very unjust world, and unfortunately, the worldwide commerce and politics are blind to a lot of that and kinda take us along without are better judgement...

The attempt to portray apple in the clear, or the even more ludicrous claim that they were actually doing us a favor by colluding though is simple absurd. They are inexcusable for using their clout to pull such **** against the consumers and the competition.

Still b&n, kobo bookstore, blackwells in the uk, other eu retailers are perfectly able to compete with amazon in ebooks. If amazon decide to raise prices guess who these customers are going to turn to. I see a lot of smaller enterprises competing with amazon, I also see amazon having rasor sharp profits... I also see apple doing something intentionally illegal. Even having by far the widest margins in their industry (and among a lot of other industries too) they wanted to play dirty to stop all competition in a particular market amongst all the parties involved, enter the market, and swallow it hole. What a gargantuan monster!

----------

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Originally Posted by LagunaSol View Post
Oh please. From by Charles Schumer (D-NY) arguing against the DOJ suit, as published in the Wall Street Journal:


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...023581798.html

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of where the real threat to your wallet lies.
I got better things to do buddy than read planted pr copy bs from apple buddy. I have made up my mind on this one.... one has to be delusional to support apple in this.

As an aside, apple better get their **** together because their legal cost have started to outweigh their r&d costs by far recently, and the various -gates, poor software offerings and general sense that they are cruising on Job's genius aimlessly while overpricing, being complacent and offering average products, is getting them nowhere.

Maybe others have wised up to the fact that apple can't bully them into negotiating under unfavorable terms any more and hence the radio service deal is nowhere near to be completed...
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 05:22 PM   #66
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No that's not the case at all. They were considerably cheaper. Please, this is sheer disinformation.
Baloney. There have been many times I've debated paying $9.99 for a Kindle book or $6 for the paperback (with free 2-day Prime shipping).

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I got better things to do buddy than read planted pr copy bs from apple buddy.
Ah, Chuck Schumer works for Apple PR now? I missed the news release.

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Originally Posted by MacFoodPoisoner View Post
Maybe others have wised up to the fact that apple can't bully them into negotiating under unfavorable terms any more
Yes, your negotiating power is markedly lessened when your competitors (Google, Amazon) are willing to give their stuff away for free (or less) while they build their market lockdown.

Like lambs to the slaughter.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 05:34 PM   #67
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Pandora stock is down despite this article, based on opposite claims. I believe the claims.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 05:50 PM   #68
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I will never get Spotify since they require you to have Facebook .
Set up a fake facebook account like I did. My dad never had Facebook nor intends to ever use it. I simple set up some made up name account that works for Spotify and absolutely nothing else. There is no info up on it that in anyway connects to my dad, no sharing in spotify activated.
I don't get why people take facebook so seriously. Setting up some facebook account is no more difficult than setting up an Apple ID or registering at Amazon or just about anywhere where you intend to buy something digitally especially subscriptions.

I think Spotify it just unbeatable for the way you can navigate your music, find new stuff and just listen. The iTunes store is still slow as hell. iTunes 11 is in some ways a great improvement but no competition for Spotify with just clicking on the artist and being provided everything. Using all kinds of Apps like Classify, musiXmatch, Last.fm. A store is nice if you are some audiophile you listens only to a narrow range of music or knows precisely which artists he likes. In Spotify I found great music that I would have never ever come across any other way.
Afaik they still don't make a profit but as model and place to go for the whole music business it is great. More chance that people try out music that doesn't play on MTV or the radio 24/7. Youtube was similar but not really intended for that use. Spotify is just pure music.
I think Apple is just to greedy and the industry probably guesses right that the consumers already have those services. They don't make a huge profit yet but is a good way to bring many who used to only pirate back to a paying model. On iTunes I think the labels prefer that people still pay full price as it is working well enough. Why offer those consumers the option of some streaming service that often offers less profit for the labels especially the milk cows like people that buy lots and lots of music would go.

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Old Dec 5, 2012, 06:18 PM   #69
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Baloney. There have been many times I've debated paying $9.99 for a Kindle book or $6 for the paperback (with free 2-day Prime shipping).
Apple's your friend, no more debating, no shall compete anymore so queen apple can have their 30% cut.

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Ah, Chuck Schumer works for Apple PR now? I missed the news release.
It might be that the clientele of this site is rather young, but not all us here are having bad hair days and enjoying our first erections, so we might be able to see through who's been influencing who in the background.

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Yes, your negotiating power is markedly lessened when your competitors (Google, Amazon) are willing to give their stuff away for free (or less) while they build their market lockdown.

Like lambs to the slaughter.
Baloney, as you said. It's just their marketing strategy, nothing illegal about that, and the customer benefits by getting good prices, not prices with a 60% mark up AND subsequently getting screwed with collusion deals behind their back. If someone shouldn't be taking about lockdown to their customers it's apple. Last I checked kindle content can be read on pretty much any pc, mac or tablet, and itunes books... you can't read itunes book properly not even on a mac, apparently we are waiting for that as apple shifts it's teams back and forth the multitude of software projects that they are dealing with and performing increasingly poorly in every single one of them...

Last I checked also it looked like amazon is merely getting along making a small profit, and apple dwarfs google. Just to get a perspective on who's got more clout.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 06:20 PM   #70
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Isn't Pandora a Radio service ?

Why would Apple want this ? I thought they already had a "radio station type" in iTunes already ....


A better music service would be more better on the cards.... Give us an improvement to this.... Apple and Spotify should team up. A sit stands now, not even iTunes has the songs i'm searching for.. while Spotify does.... Gaps exsist....... these two can solve when put together.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 06:28 PM   #71
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Apple's your friend, no more debating, no shall compete anymore so queen apple can have their 30% cut.
You don't need to resort to a straw man when I refute your point with a fact.

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It might be that the clientele of this site is rather young, but not all us here are having bad hair days and enjoying our first erections, so we might be able to see through who's been influencing who in the background.
The personal insults help too.

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Baloney, as you said. It's just their marketing strategy
Selling at a loss is not a marketing strategy. It's a market dominating strategy.

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customer benefits by getting good prices
Just like a meth dealer. The first hit is free!

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Originally Posted by MacFoodPoisoner View Post
If someone shouldn't be taking about lockdown to their customers it's apple. Last I checked kindle content can be read on pretty much any pc, mac or tablet
Which is why I buy Kindle books.

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apple dwarfs google. Just to get a perspective on who's got more clout.
Hmm, the Google fans here tell us every day about Android's commanding market share in mobile.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 06:31 PM   #72
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I don't use Pandora's service from Pandora, why would I use anything like it from Apple?

If Apple wants to change models, they should move to something people want, like Spotify, not something they don't want.
Personally, I've discovered probably hundreds of songs listening to Pandora. Songs I would never have come across otherwise. I've voted up and down so many songs, that at this point, it rarely ever plays a song I don't like anymore. Pandora is much better than Spotify. Simple, and plays what I like.

Although honestly, that is subject to opinion. If you're the boring type who dislikes discovering new things or you enjoy the thrill of the hunt for new songs, then sure, Spotify is for you. If you like discovering new things, but you'd rather have the discoveries (that you'll enjoy) brought to you, rather than having to hunt them down, then Pandora is certainly a much better choice.

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Old Dec 5, 2012, 06:40 PM   #73
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I'd rather have a DAB radio chip. The US is very behind when it comes to digital Radio. It's quite widely used in Europe and Asia now, and is far superior.

That being said, it's still not really needed. I cant comment about other countries, but in the UK all major and most minor radio stations belong to a consortium, and they basically fund an online radio service for all stations, including the BBC. They also share a mobile app, meaning you can listen to pretty much any radio station in the country wherever you are.
I wonder if Apples plan is to use Broadcast parts of LTE standard.
wiki/Multicast-Broadcast_Single_Frequency_Network Work with the deals they have with Telco's to help them launch.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 06:45 PM   #74
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You don't need to resort to a straw man when I refute your point with a fact.
I am just informing you of the alternative option


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The personal insults help too.
What personal insults? I wish I were having bad hair days and my first erections. That would entail me being 20 years younger...

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Selling at a loss is not a marketing strategy. It's a market dominating strategy.
Oh, so companies are suddenly NOT out to dominate their markets if they can? And fyi, this "selling at a loss" counter argument doesn't really hold ground, because amazon is overall making a profit in their book/ebook/kindle sales.

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Just like a meth dealer. The first hit is free!
Never tried it sorry. The alternative is getting overcharged by about +$500 for the new 21.5" imac AND getting to pay premium prices to apple for books...


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Which is why I buy Kindle books.
Good choice I do too, sadly at higher prices ever since Eddy decided to "negotiate" with publishers. Strange how a non software focused company such as amazon who's just a retailer can get out cross platform apps for their content and apple doesn't officially support their epub content on their desktop os... I guess they were too busy "negotiating" with publishers to get off the butt and write a bunch of lines of code for a proper ebook reader for OS X. Not to worry, they are coming up with it as a "feature" in 10.9 and by OS XI iwork '09 will have been upgraded too.

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Hmm, the Google fans here tell us every day about Android's commanding market share in mobile.
I can't respond for them, I am not one of them.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 06:55 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Schmitty11 View Post
Oh yes, it wil definatly be a Pandora killer.

2010 called, they want their meme back. Also, spell check now comes free on Apple computers.


Pandora has already been killed by congress and services like Rdio and Spotify. To think Apple can compete with these two services is definitely seeing the glass as half full. The market sees it as half empty.

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