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Old Dec 6, 2012, 12:50 PM   #76
kublaiboy
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Does that mean we'll see American workers jumping off the buildings?

Or unless they suck up and work 12~14 hours a day and only get 1 day off in a month!

Yeah, bring back the jobs for the good ole USA!

Joke a side, will Apple's demanding demeanor over subcontractors change because of (8 hours a day and I need my damn vacation)American workers demand better welfare than those 14 year old Foxconn Chinese girls?

Of course, Apple doesn't want to talk about that.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 12:50 PM   #77
kdarling
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Originally Posted by Technarchy View Post
I'm surprised Apple hasn't moved toward greater automation for the iPhone and iPad production as is.
They are. Or rather, Foxconn is.

Foxconn's parent company is buying several million robots over the next few years.

Robots don't need living quarters, food, heat, or bathrooms, and they don't ask for higher wages or vacations or commit suicide. Training is often easier and quicker, too.

Foxconn has also started installing automated X-Ray stations to check every board going down the line for defects (instead of just one each batch)... something that American factories have done for decades.

I think that Cook knows that quality control in China is not that good, and it's costing Apple more and more each year.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 12:53 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoRegardless View Post
"but the company (Apple) faces major challenges if it wishes to bring operations on the scale of iPhone production to the United States."

Opportunity is what you give yourself with vision.

Apple faces limits until the day when component integration & miniaturization and robotics allow a nearly totally robotic assembled iPhone. Once that day comes, which I predict is only years away, Apple can put factories anywhere the market is located.

They could easily have factories in Asia, EU, US & South America. Geographic dispersal also assures Apple that earthquake, typhoon, revolution or fire doesn't shut down an entire product line.

It is real and it will come.
Not really, as robotics for jobs like these are "Fixed" robots. They don't change to well, or easily as a human can. They can do some thing better then any human. But, if they are fixed to doing only 1 thing. A human can change on the fly. A Robot (currently and I'm sure for some time), can't.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 12:56 PM   #79
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Title of article should be "Apple bringing Jobs back". Maybe then it would get more views...

On a more important note, exactly what "education" does the USA not have that the workers in China (many of which probably grew up on a farm and never went to school) do have? Is it that we are not educated to slave away working for crap salaries?

Honestly, just sounds like a bad excuse on Apple's part. Just man up and say, "It is too expensive to assemble our products in the USA."
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 01:01 PM   #80
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This makes a lot of sense!!

Foxconn already has a facility in Mexico. They take advantage of the RFE program to achieve lower import duties and greater ease of shipping. Mexico and USA have NAFTA. No import duties = Higher Margins. Call me crazy, but I am of the belief that Macs are still prohibitively expensive for most of the world.

The VAT in Europe doesn't help. Mac Book Pros are nearly $2000 for the entry model, and support services for them are not as easy to come by. My guess is that the USA, Canada, and the UK are the largest markets for Macs.

An employee in the USA costs $30-40k per year, maybe 50-60k with benefits. When you account for efficiency, and no duties, the savings makes a heck of a lot of sense. Also, at this rate wages in China will be 50-80% of those in the USA in 5-10 years. My bet is that they have a supply chain directed at Mexico that they will utilize for parts. The parts are shipped to USA for assembly, along with certain parts that will be made here. They will probably also qualify for incentives for utilizing American labor.

I have no idea what other incentive programs exist, but I am confident there are many. I somehow doubt that Foxconn would agree to take on a 100million dollar endeavor for the fun of it, even with the money coming from Apple.

I have a very hard time believing this won't benefit Margins, and produce an efficiently dispersed supply chain, and assembly line that conforms to the realities of a developing world. It's the same thing that happened in Brazil.

IPad minis are not being produced in Brazil as an act of good will. The government made it very worth their while.

Remember, the next time anyone insults Apple, you can respond "At least I support an American company that produces 500k + good American Jobs.

To wish for Apple to fail is to wish for the global economy to fall into oblivion. Furthermore, Apple supports development in China. Wages rising in China by 500% over the past 10 years is due to the factories, and development that has been built to support companies such as Apple.

Contrary to the myth, workers in China, at least those at Foxconn are not slave labor. By Western standards they were until about 10 years ago, but a lot has changed. The Cultural Revolution was not a good time. China has come a long way in the past 20 years. American companies are not, and have never been responsible for the poor working conditions. China, a communist country, was not always the friendly, accessible, capitalist utopia it is today. The political and social repression you read about is a spill over effect from another era that will diminish with time. Speeding up this process likely not a good idea. It's still not perfect, but get with reality, the early late 19th century, and early 20th century wasn't a nice time for a number of demographics in America.

Google the Industrial Revolution and all will make sense.

Makes sense to me

Last edited by Masterkona; Dec 6, 2012 at 01:16 PM.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 01:10 PM   #81
Maxx Power
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Where do I "volunteer" for wage slavery ? I can't wait to dedicate my life to making things for others, because I can not possibly afford it.

Think different, think altruism.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 01:15 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Chaos123x View Post
That's how Apple used to make products in the USA almost all robots. But it's cheaper to pay Chinese migrant workers to make stuff by hand then to have robots to do it. That's how messed up things really are.
I highly doubt it, given the speed at which robots can work. Robots can place some parts, and wave soldering machines are the best for fixing small components to logic boards, but intricate placement of parts and connecting cables are still done by humans.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 01:25 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by M-O View Post
minimum wage jobs. still good though. teenagers need better options than fast food. working the line is a step up.
oh god I hope not. I would not think teenagers are responsible enough to make apple products.. yes they maybe teenagers in china but it is a way different style of life and understanding of work..
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 01:30 PM   #84
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minimum wage jobs. still good though. teenagers need better options than fast food. working the line is a step up.
I've seen a lot of responsible college educated people in their early-late twenties working fast food to help pay bills, so there are even less options for teens now.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 01:43 PM   #85
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Work'n ina Coal Mine....Go'n Down Down

Hey. I am not going to let my 12 year old kid work 15 hr shifts!
10 hrs and she is out of there!!
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 01:47 PM   #86
HMI
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I'm sad it's through Foxconn and not directly for apple.
I want more American companies actually making things here directly, not hiring some other country to build another building here.

I'm not the most patriotic person, but when people start feeling like they have to leave their own country to find work, something is wrong.

It might be a job in America, but working for Foxconn would be totally different than working for apple, and it shouldn't have to be this way for a product designed here.

Just my opinion.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 01:53 PM   #87
M-O
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Originally Posted by Intarweb View Post
Really? There's far less room for advancement in production lines than in fast foot restaurants.
fast food is basically a production line. and it's not for advancement, it's to earn money during the summer to pay for college in the spring and fall.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 01:57 PM   #88
apfeljonas
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Originally Posted by jctevere View Post
Title of article should be "Apple bringing Jobs back". Maybe then it would get more views...

On a more important note, exactly what "education" does the USA not have that the workers in China (many of which probably grew up on a farm and never went to school) do have? Is it that we are not educated to slave away working for crap salaries?

Honestly, just sounds like a bad excuse on Apple's part. Just man up and say, "It is too expensive to assemble our products in the USA."
I'd like to point out that the jobs were never really here in the first place...
But yes, this is an awesome develpoment!
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 02:02 PM   #89
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Also, unions will not have to come in if it's a robotic factory.
Where does it state in the United Steel Workers of America bylaws that union members have to be human to join?
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 02:19 PM   #90
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A number of companies are making this move. Very interesting reasons too:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...boom/309166/1/


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Old Dec 6, 2012, 02:37 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by adrianm View Post
I'd rather they were built in China - not sure Apple could take the quality control hit from having them built in the US. I mean does the US make anything of any quality any more?
You mean the non existent quality control they operate under now? I'd rather have a 20-30 yr old American making something rather than a 13 yr old chineese kid that lives in an onsite dorm, thats called a camp.

US makes tons of quality products, you just happen to choose companies that are fueled by greed and only want to pay for $2/hr third world labor.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by hayesk View Post
I highly doubt it, given the speed at which robots can work. Robots can place some parts, and wave soldering machines are the best for fixing small components to logic boards, but intricate placement of parts and connecting cables are still done by humans.
wow, are you seriously that stupid? WTF do you think all the children at the foxxconn factory do? They place parts inside of stamped templates and solder them by hand, for the 300% price mark up, I'd much rather have a multi million dollar machine solder everything with millimeter tolerances, as opposed to a 12 yr and a soldering iron whose hunched over a desk for 14 hours a day.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 02:38 PM   #92
Jason Garza
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Originally Posted by mantan View Post
Would you...really?

People like to wave their little flag and talk about 'made in America', but 99.9% of consumers are solely driven by the absolute lowest price they can get.

I bet if there was an iMac that was $50 more that was made in the USA and one next to it that was assembled in China, people would push each other out of the way to get the cheaper model.

Not saying it's right...but that's how people are wired....
Walmart's success proves you right sir.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 02:41 PM   #93
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Oh boy, Apple is becoming a consumer led democracy. This isn't going to end well.

I'm curious to see what the difference in margin will be between a Foxcon produced computer and a USA produced computer.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 02:41 PM   #94
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Last edited by Jason Garza; Dec 6, 2012 at 03:02 PM.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 02:45 PM   #95
FreemanW
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The United States has finally arrived at Third World status!

Let the slave labor begin.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 02:49 PM   #96
drorpheus
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Up until 2006 they Assembled there computers in the USA, just the itoys were made in China.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 02:51 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by iChrist View Post
.
A number of companies are making this move. Very interesting reasons too:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...boom/309166/1/
A must-read article. Thanks! Some points from it about why out-sourcing makes even less sense than ever:

Quote:
  • Oil prices are three times what they were in 2000, making cargo-ship fuel much more expensive now than it was then.
  • The natural-gas boom in the U.S. has dramatically lowered the cost for running something as energy-intensive as a factory here at home. (Natural gas now costs four times as much in Asia as it does in the U.S.)
  • In dollars, wages in China are some five times what they were in 2000—and they are expected to keep rising 18 percent a year.
And...

Quote:
So a funny thing happened to the GeoSpring on the way from the cheap Chinese factory to the expensive Kentucky factory: The material cost went down. The labor required to make it went down. The quality went up. Even the energy efficiency went up.

GE wasn’t just able to hold the retail sticker to the “China price.” It beat that price by nearly 20 percent.
It's not just manufacturing either. I think a lot of IT management is finally realizing that off-shoring code development was a huge mistake as well. You don't get three good developers for the price of one American developer. You get three inexperienced developers who don't care about planning for future changes or support.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 02:52 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by FreemanW View Post
The United States has finally arrived at Third World status!

Let the slave labor begin.
Wish there was an honest assessment of who will get this labor (for that matter even want it)

Most min wage jobs are done by the hispanics and they are good at it.

I don't see many jobs for Americans coming, nor do they want them!

As for education, check reality again. The amount of American students in Math, Sciences etc. is not at a desirable level.

All in all just lip service by FoxConn and Apple to calm down critics.

Make the 500 pcs. of MacPros and be done.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 02:56 PM   #99
unlimitedx
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minimum wage jobs. still good though. teenagers need better options than fast food. working the line is a step up.
better to keep the jobs here than to ship to overseas..
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 02:56 PM   #100
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I didn't see any mention of corporate espionage, which is certainly a concern too. Some manufacturers overseas even sell the clones themselves.

Apple (or any manufacturer) would have more legal recourse in the event anything like that should happen here.
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