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Old Aug 7, 2014, 12:50 PM   #1
chirpie
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Are there any small streaming devices on the Market that support 24p?

This is so oddly vexing. Roku, Apple TV, and Chromecast all apparently have one thing in common... they can't output a 24p signal.

I was able to live with it for a couple years but I upgraded the projector in the theater room to a Sony VPL hw40es, and this issue has been magnified now so badly when trying to play 24p through the Apple TV, it makes it almost unwatchable.

Are there any devices on the market I could use that wouldn't cause the need for re-ripping all of my content to 30p?

I'll even entertain workarounds. ;-)
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Old Aug 7, 2014, 03:53 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirpie View Post
This is so oddly vexing. Roku, Apple TV, and Chromecast all apparently have one thing in common... they can't output a 24p signal.

I was able to live with it for a couple years but I upgraded the projector in the theater room to a Sony VPL hw40es, and this issue has been magnified now so badly when trying to play 24p through the Apple TV, it makes it almost unwatchable.

Are there any devices on the market I could use that wouldn't cause the need for re-ripping all of my content to 30p?

I'll even entertain workarounds. ;-)
Sadly, the best bet is to use a computer instead. I've got my AppleTV plugged into my projector and the stutter can be annoying but I live with it. I've played those same files on my computer connected to a 24p capable display and they look smooth as silk. No idea why Apple doesn't just add an option to the ATV to allow it to play whatever material at the native frame rate. I have plenty of stuff that is 24, 25 and 30 fps and only the 30fps stuff looks good at 60 but if I switch to 50, then the 24 fps material has much more noticeable judder as does the 30 whereas the ATV seems to do an OK job with 25->60 so it doesn't look any worse than 24->60.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 12:48 PM   #3
chirpie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatDrok View Post
Sadly, the best bet is to use a computer instead. I've got my AppleTV plugged into my projector and the stutter can be annoying but I live with it. I've played those same files on my computer connected to a 24p capable display and they look smooth as silk. No idea why Apple doesn't just add an option to the ATV to allow it to play whatever material at the native frame rate. I have plenty of stuff that is 24, 25 and 30 fps and only the 30fps stuff looks good at 60 but if I switch to 50, then the 24 fps material has much more noticeable judder as does the 30 whereas the ATV seems to do an OK job with 25->60 so it doesn't look any worse than 24->60.
Appreciate the reply back. At least now I know I'm not crazy. It's kind of funny that this isn't supported considering, you know, more than just a few movies have this frame rate.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 01:07 PM   #4
akhilleus
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Are you both sure that it's not your TV settings being all smoothed out? I have a Roku, a wirless Bluray player, and play stuff off my laptop and I notice no difference. I'm also a stickler for video presentation and very anti motion smoothing.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 01:32 PM   #5
chirpie
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Originally Posted by akhilleus View Post
Are you both sure that it's not your TV settings being all smoothed out? I have a Roku, a wirless Bluray player, and play stuff off my laptop and I notice no difference. I'm also a stickler for video presentation and very anti motion smoothing.
This isn't quite the same as smoothing. (Also known as frame interpolation) I abhor frame interpolation and have shut it all off. What we're wanting is source 24 fps - Display 24 fps. Since the Apple TV doesn't support this, frame jitter results.

Roku themselves (And Apple) state their device doesn't support this, so I'm not specifically surprised, just disappointed. ^_^

Last edited by chirpie; Aug 8, 2014 at 02:06 PM.
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Old Aug 8, 2014, 09:13 PM   #6
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WDTV media players support 24p output.
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Old Aug 9, 2014, 08:44 AM   #7
akhilleus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirpie View Post
This isn't quite the same as smoothing. (Also known as frame interpolation) I abhor frame interpolation and have shut it all off. What we're wanting is source 24 fps - Display 24 fps. Since the Apple TV doesn't support this, frame jitter results.

Roku themselves (And Apple) state their device doesn't support this, so I'm not specifically surprised, just disappointed. ^_^
Gotcha. I have been weighing Apple TV vs. Mac Mini for permanent hookup to my TV and this info is news to me. Looks like it's another point in the Mac Mini category... just hard to justify a $600 purchase because I'm too annoyed to hook my laptop into my TV all the time.
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Old Aug 9, 2014, 01:28 PM   #8
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If this is for one room then perhaps you might consider either a good "smart" blue ray player or media player and of course a small htpc.

Some blue ray players can play files via network. Media players such as DUNE have no issues with playing many file formats and at 24p. Similar can be said for small htpc PCs running XBMC or Plex. Of the latter, you can check their respective forums for minimum builds that offer up good playback.

Given that you are using a projector and seem to have invested in quality playback, it would be a pity if the 'system' had a weak link in whatever playback unit you choose. I know many love their mini-media players and don't mind the limitation. For me, I find no use for such players. I found over time it is worth getting the right devices for the right job.

I have used over the past - ATV, WD media players, Mac Mini, DUNE, various PCs and Oppo Blue Ray player. In order of quality playback - Oppo, Dune, PC, Mac Mini, and ATV/WD mini media players.

Here is a link for the Dune devices - check out premium and smart series. There are other makers of similar products as well such as Medi8tor. The smart series might not be as small as the ATV or WD but certainly is a significant step up for file playback (other than iTune movies).

http://dune-hd.com/eng/products/full...dia_players/37

As for Blue Ray players, there are certainly other makers than Oppo that deliver the goods at a lower cost.
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Old Aug 13, 2014, 12:54 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by phrehdd View Post
If this is for one room then perhaps you might consider either a good "smart" blue ray player or media player and of course a small htpc.
Thanks for the food for thought. :-)

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by andymodem View Post
WDTV media players support 24p output.
Shoot, really? I actually think I have a couple at work just sitting on a shelf. Might test for fun...
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Old Aug 13, 2014, 04:33 AM   #10
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24p...

so 24 pixels high ?

480p 480 pixels high
720p 720 pixels high
1080p 1080 pixels high

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Old Aug 13, 2014, 12:50 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Nightarchaon View Post
24p...

so 24 pixels high ?

480p 480 pixels high
720p 720 pixels high
1080p 1080 pixels high

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p
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Old Aug 14, 2014, 03:54 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by octothorpe8 View Post
Ahh wikipedia, incorrect articles, written by incompetent people, that propagate incorrect terminology as correct..

its a vicious feeback loop.

someone somewhere started using 24p instead of 24fps and its now become a wiki article so people think its correct... and thus bad information gets taken into the public as correct information and bad terminology spreads

Quoting Wiki articles as proof of what your talking about = fail.
Wikipedia is the best work of fiction on the internet that occasionally has interesting facts buried in it.
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Old Aug 14, 2014, 06:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightarchaon View Post
Ahh wikipedia, incorrect articles, written by incompetent people, that propagate incorrect terminology as correct..

its a vicious feeback loop.

someone somewhere started using 24p instead of 24fps and its now become a wiki article so people think its correct... and thus bad information gets taken into the public as correct information and bad terminology spreads

Quoting Wiki articles as proof of what your talking about = fail.
Wikipedia is the best work of fiction on the internet that occasionally has interesting facts buried in it.

Not to nitpick, but the 24p nomenclature predates Wikipedia and is used for broadcast standards. The p stands in for progressive vs. i for interlaced, exactly as it does when used to differentiate progressive vs. interlaced resolution but is used when you also include the frame rate in your shorthand. ie.

1080/60i or 720/50p vs. 1080i or 720p.

http://www.steves-digicams.com/knowl...p-30p-60i.html

or even something from Apple's Final Cut 7 manual:

https://documentation.apple.com/en/f...1%26tasks=true
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Old Aug 14, 2014, 07:32 AM   #14
mw360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightarchaon View Post
Ahh wikipedia, incorrect articles, written by incompetent people, that propagate incorrect terminology as correct..

its a vicious feeback loop.

someone somewhere started using 24p instead of 24fps and its now become a wiki article so people think its correct... and thus bad information gets taken into the public as correct information and bad terminology spreads

Quoting Wiki articles as proof of what your talking about = fail.
Wikipedia is the best work of fiction on the internet that occasionally has interesting facts buried in it.
Have you told the SMPTE they're getting it all wrong too? Here's an example publication where, no doubt, they just copied and pasted from wikipedia...

http://standards.smpte.org/content/9...1-edc307821402

24p is used instead of 25fps because fps is ambiguous when a picture source could be interlaced.

Last edited by mw360; Aug 14, 2014 at 07:37 AM. Reason: More appropriate link
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Old Aug 14, 2014, 07:52 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by BuddyRich View Post
Not to nitpick, but the 24p nomenclature predates Wikipedia and is used for broadcast standards. The p stands in for progressive vs. i for interlaced, exactly as it does when used to differentiate progressive vs. interlaced resolution but is used when you also include the frame rate in your shorthand. ie.

1080/60i or 720/50p vs. 1080i or 720p.

http://www.steves-digicams.com/knowl...p-30p-60i.html

or even something from Apple's Final Cut 7 manual:

https://documentation.apple.com/en/f...1%26tasks=true
Thats what i was saying, it hasnt been used as shortand for Frames Per Second, it was always shorthand for "Progressive Scan"

24p would mean 24 lines progressive scan, not 24 Frames Per Second Progressive scan.

Ive checked with a Friend who has worked in the BBC for over 30 years, and he has NEVER heard of 24p as a shorthand for frame rate being used in the industry as a whole, they refer to FPS.. 24p etc seems to be corruption of the "high definition" world and 480p, 720p 1080i 1080p being miss-understood and corrupted by someone who thinks FPS is to long to write

So your first comment above your first link is almost correct, in that it refers to resolution and SCAN, the link however is wrong and refers to FRAME RATE, the correct format would be 1080p/60 not 1080/60p as its 1080 Progressive scan at / 60Hz or 1080i/60 not 1080/60i as its 1080 Interlaced at / 60 Hz
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Old Aug 14, 2014, 10:45 AM   #16
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I'm surprised you're going after this point, Night.

Even the actual programs that we use for editing like Premiere Pro as well as the cameras we shoot with use 24p in their menus and drop downs so I'm surprised your BBC friend gave you that answer.

It's used and needed to make sense in context next to 30p, 30i, 50i, 60i, etc. I get that. I also understand that the person who works with video assumes this to be 24 frames per second as well. You get both bits of information at the same time so it makes it feel like the term is being used interchangeably.

You might be able to argue a technicality to victory, but for all intents and purposes the term is understood by most who work with video just fine.
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Last edited by chirpie; Aug 14, 2014 at 11:02 AM.
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Old Aug 14, 2014, 11:06 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Nightarchaon View Post
Thats what i was saying, it hasnt been used as shortand for Frames Per Second, it was always shorthand for "Progressive Scan"

24p would mean 24 lines progressive scan, not 24 Frames Per Second Progressive scan.
p stands for progressive, yes, but it can be appended to either the image size (1080) or the frame rate (24) or both. It is useful in all contexts.

p does not mean frames per second. But 24p does mean 24 progressive frames per second. p does not mean lines, but 1080p means 1080 lines progessively scanned. Because there are a limited number of HD formats, it is left to the reader to infer whether the number refers to lines or frames. It is not usually controversial until someone tries to be a smartass about it.

Again, see above where the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers, known for SMPTE timecode, the fundamental measurement of video frames, disagrees with you.

As for quoting somebody who works at the BBC. So what? The BBC also does regional radio.

Edit: One more, part of a BBC camera assessment report, enjoy the flagrant use of 50p, 25p etc…

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/w...ony_PMW-F3.pdf

Last edited by mw360; Aug 14, 2014 at 11:15 AM.
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Old Aug 14, 2014, 01:49 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Nightarchaon View Post
Quoting Wiki articles as proof of what your talking about = fail
OK. And spending your time turning an informative thread about streaming devices and frame rates into a p***ing contest? That seems like a real fail.
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Old Aug 14, 2014, 05:14 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by octothorpe8 View Post
OK. And spending your time turning an informative thread about streaming devices and frame rates into a p***ing contest? That seems like a real fail.
don't you mean a 24p***ing contest?
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