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Old Dec 8, 2012, 09:29 AM   #76
bearcatrp
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This is a joke. 200? And if its the mac pro to be built in america, the lowest money making mac for apple, gives you an idea what apple values made in america. Will be interesting to see what the salary will be for the workers but don't expect it much above minimum wage.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 09:38 AM   #77
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Distribution of the surplus is the biggest issue - does the surplus go exclusively to the capitalist? Or are there other interested segments of society who should reap some of the benefits?
Distribution of surpluses isn't a problem that needs to be "fixed" - it happens naturally. Those who know how to put together a company and produce value already get good rewards. Capitalism is the fairest, yet most cold hearted, system. But the key is it is fair as those who produce get the most. It is only when commies interfere and start picking winners and losers that things get messed up.

Business owners take on the risk, therefore, they get the biggest rewards. There is 0 risk in being an employee. You show up and get a paycheck for your time. There is never a situation where you go to a job and it turns out you actually now owe money rather than have made money. Yet, this is a reality for people who get into business.

That is why in order to motivate people to build businesses they have to be given disproportionally large rewards. If it weren't for the possibility of extremely high pay offs much above what I can earn on a job, for example, would have just gotten a job instead of building my business (which employs 50 people).

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what do we do with the displaced workers?
They will have to re-educate themselves and find something else to do. It is not our responsibility to do anything for them. They have to do things for themselves. They are certainly not entitled to reap the benefits of someone else's system and capital just because they lost out on work because of it.

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At one point, we decreed that any labor over 40 hours needed to be paid time and one-half, creating more jobs for people. Maybe a solution is to change that to 30 or 35? Maybe a tax on production machinery that is used for worker retraining?
So you want to punish people who have full time jobs by forcing them to take on less hours and less pay? I wonder how someone who works hard to put food on their table will react if you tell them they need to take a pay cut and work less (even though they want to work as much as they can) so that their neighbor could have some too. I don't think they'd react too kindly.

A tax on production machinery? That's insane. What will happen then is the machinery will just go back overseas.

Business owners like me do not see it as our responsibility to make sure that people have good jobs with benefits. I see it as my responsibility to make as much money as I can for myself. That's why I got into business. Providing jobs and enriching others is just a necessary byproduct of my own selfish pursuit of wealth. Give me crappy cards like high taxes and mandates and I will go somewhere where I will be dealt a better hand.

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Efficient production should lead to more total wealth. That is the whole point. But if the wealth goes only to a small proportion of the population, leaving large numbers unemployed, then new problems are created, which could (and perhaps, which must be) be dealt with as new opportunities.
The solution is to encourage people to get better educations and learn how to create value. It is not to confiscate the rewards business owners earn through their hard work and redistribute it. Your commie none sense is what leads to increased poverty and less opportunities around the world.

It does not matter if you don't have as much as someone else, what matters is your quality of life. Thanks to capitalism even the poorest in countries like the United States enjoy fast computers with the internet, big flat screen TVs with HD channels, and even cell phones that let them communicate from anywhere. That's already a higher quality of life than even the wealthiest people had just 50 years ago.

I saw Elvis Presley's house in Memphis Tennessee and all he had for a TV was a small black and white CRT TV. That's all that existed in his day. Most of us on this forum if not all of us have much better TVs at home today and yet none (or few) of us are as fabulously wealthy as Elvis was.

Key here is to stop looking at what others have and enjoy what you have. The way the economy works is that those who create value for others earn the most money. So if some are getting super rich that means the quality of life is improving for everyone.

Apple is only super wealthy as a company because they made products that improved the quality of all of our lives and changed them forever. In fact, it is only thanks to Apple's products that many people have jobs at all. I am talking about the iOS developers, small time video editors, photographers, etc. who all rely on Apple's software to let them do their work.

So rather than focusing on taking what's in Apple's bank account and redistributing it (therefore, sending a message to anyone thinking about changing the world like Apple did that if they are successful they will be targeted) we should be focusing on creating more Apple's.

Again, if someone is becoming ultra rich that means that many people are being positively affected by what they are doing (otherwise people would not be throwing money their way). So get out of their way and let them continue their work!
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 09:40 AM   #78
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Lots of luck to Apple trying to find people with the skills needed to work there.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 09:48 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Laird Knox View Post
It never ceases to amaze me how many jackasses there on these forums.
lol, you beat me to it.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 09:51 AM   #80
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I am looking at the photo of those Chinese women in clean suits assembling the computers. I just can't picture Americans doing that day in and day out. They will get bored. No offense intended.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 09:56 AM   #81
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Apple should setup production in third world states in the USA. There are a lot of rural areas where people would be very interested in the jobs, the cost of living is low and the labor would be inexpensive. Chinese labor costs are going up. Combined with not having to ship things over and back, locating production in a developing state like Vermont could be a real win for Apple.

One thing that urbanites don't realize is that the cost of living out in the rural areas is far, far lower than in the cities. I'm not talking about the Living Wage propaganda but about how people really live out here. Housing, food, heat are all much cheaper because we have more modest homes, lower real estate taxes, many of us grow much of our food rather than wasting time in gyms and bars and a large portion of us heat with wood which we gather from our own land. We also don't have a lot of the costs of the urban areas like water, sewer, etc because we have our own wells and septic systems that last for decades. Our family of five lives on a fraction of what is called "Poverty Income" yet we are never hungry, lack heat, water, etc. We have the essentials. It is a very different world here than in Boston, NYC, LA, etc. Economically more like China but without the oppressive government.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:08 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by swingerofbirch View Post
Both Steve Jobs and Tim Cook have stated that the reason manufacturing isn't done in the US is that we don't teach the skills in our schools anymore that are needed for these jobs. I've even heard them say that the education system would need to be reformed to bring manufacturing jobs to the US.

I have never understood this.

I in no way want to devalue to the service and work by people who work in manufacturing, but what are the skills they're talking about?
Tool and die skills is what Steve Jobs was talking about.

He said the amount of tool and die machinists in the U.S. has dwindled while it's still a huge trade that's learned by thousands of people in China and other countries. According to the Bureau for Labor Statistics: "Employment of machinists and tool and die makers is expected to grow 7 percent from 2010 to 2020, slower than the average for all occupations."

Here's Cook's take:

"People focus on the final assembly, because that's the part where people look at it and say 'That's an iPhone,'" he said. "They don't think of all the parts underneath that add significant value. So on assembly, could it be done in the US? I hope so some day. The tool and die maker skill in the US began to go down in the '60s and '70s. How many tool and die makers do you know now? We couldn't fill a room. In China you'd need several cities."

Here's what some American tool and die makers are saying about the industry:

"This trade in our country is almost extinct. No more new blood coming in, experienced TM changing trade due to low wages. Customers are moving away to developing countries.. No more light in front!"

"It is definitely a dying trade and many of my friends have found other careers instead. It is true that many are now retiring and that may save the rest of us for a while, but the future in general is bleak for tool and die. It was once a respected and valued profession but not any more. Those days are gone.

Now companies buy dies from China at pennies on the dollar compared to American tooling. The quality doesn't compare, but cheaper is better to the bean counters, you know. Most every aspect of American manufacturing is in jeopardy from cheap overseas labor now and the death of the tool and die trade is just a small part of a much larger crisis that is looming for us all.It is definitely a dying trade and many of my friends have found other careers instead. It is true that many are now retiring and that may save the rest of us for a while, but the future in general is bleak for tool and die. It was once a respected and valued profession but not any more. Those days are gone.

Now companies buy dies from China at pennies on the dollar compared to American tooling. The quality doesn't compare, but cheaper is better to the bean counters, you know. Most every aspect of American manufacturing is in jeopardy from cheap overseas labor now and the death of the tool and die trade is just a small part of a much larger crisis that is looming for us all."

http://www.indeed.com/forum/job/Tool...oom-bust/t2014

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Originally Posted by bommai View Post
I am looking at the photo of those Chinese women in clean suits assembling the computers. I just can't picture Americans doing that day in and day out. They will get bored. No offense intended.
That's part of the problem of being such a wealthy nation. How many people are there in the U.S. that have been unemployed for a year or two? Basically they feel they are above many jobs. And in a sense, I can understand not wanting to take a huge step down because of how bad it looks on the résumé but work is work after a year of being unemployed.

If anything, it will be illegal immigrants in America that will be clamoring for these jobs but they won't be allowed to work in the factory.

Last edited by Drunken Master; Dec 8, 2012 at 10:15 AM.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:10 AM   #83
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I guess I'm in the minority here. I'd rather have my Macs made overseas. We know the fit and finish that comes from there. That's why I now buy Lexus instead of Toyota. After they began making their vehicles in Canada, Indiana, etc, quality took a dive. Overseas there are thousand of people in line just waiting to take a job if someone slacks...over here the work ethic for quality simply stinks. Go buy a $75,000 Escalade and tell me if you think fit and finish are up to parr. Not even close.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:15 AM   #84
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Why should companies like Apple have to rely on "tax breaks and other incentives"?

If they really wanted to invest in the US for the sake of providing jobs and contributing to the local economy then they wouldn't be sponging off of the state/federal governments for the sake of saving a few million dollars on top of the multi-billions they already have in their [offshore] bank accounts.

Surely with the way they preach how much they've contributed to the US job markets (see) you'd think that that was the incentive for investment, and not the extensive tax breaks and amounts of corporate welfare.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:26 AM   #85
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:30 AM   #86
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It's important to remember that companies don't start up and expand for the purpose of creating jobs. They do it to make money by creating a product or offering a service. If they do it well, they'll be successful and more jobs are the result. It is not the other way around. Companies do not start up to create jobs or to provide benefits. Those things can only occur after money(profits!) are made.

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Originally Posted by zin View Post
Why should companies like Apple have to rely on "tax breaks and other incentives"?

If they really wanted to invest in the US for the sake of providing jobs and contributing to the local economy then they wouldn't be sponging off of the state/federal governments for the sake of saving a few million dollars on top of the multi-billions they already have in their [offshore] bank accounts.

Surely with the way they preach how much they've contributed to the US job markets (see) you'd think that that was the incentive for investment, and not the extensive tax breaks and amounts of corporate welfare.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:36 AM   #87
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Typical.

Apple makes a great move to bring jobs back to the US and some peeved off executive or analyst somewher pulls some ******** numbers out of their behind to make it seem like it isn't a big deal.

Why are people quoting Flextronics on anything Apple after what happened with them?

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/07/06/...apple-secrets/
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:36 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by wikus View Post
This 200 number is almost as impressive as Apple's very generous 10% off deals during black Friday.
This 200 number is almost as impressive as the massive sense of entitlement people seem to feel is owed to them with massive discounts on brand new products that sell more than well enough to not require tempting price reductions.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:38 AM   #89
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Only 200 jobs? That's kind of a shame -- Apple can do better than that... After watching the interview with Tim Cook the other day on Nightly News with Brian Williams on NBC, Tim Cook expressed the fact that Apple was expanding manufacturing operations into the U.S. as if it would be a big deal - but 200 jobs? He may as well have not even brought it up.

I definitely smell a public relations stunt. Although, at the end of the day, like many people in this thread have already said, some jobs being brought to America is better than none at all.

Thankfully the U.S. unemployment rate, although very slowly, is beginning to drop -- one could argue the reasons for that (I'm not an economist yet, so I'm no position to do that), but it is what it is.

Thanks for posting this.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:46 AM   #90
joe-h2o
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Originally Posted by bearcatrp View Post
This is a joke. 200? And if its the mac pro to be built in america, the lowest money making mac for apple, gives you an idea what apple values made in america. Will be interesting to see what the salary will be for the workers but don't expect it much above minimum wage.
Well, it's a total wild-assed guess by a company that leaked Apple secrets and got in serious trouble for it, so take that as you will.

There's also the saying "from the smallest acorns grow the mightiest oaks".

There's simply no way Apple was going to bring manufacturing back to the US on anything near the scale being done inn China at the moment. Any scheme was going to start small scale while they work out logistics, supply, employment options, workforce interest etc. If it is successful I would expect a modest scale up.

----------

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Originally Posted by SnowLeopard OSX View Post
Only 200 jobs? That's kind of a shame -- Apple can do better than that... After watching the interview with Tim Cook the other day on Nightly News with Brian Williams on NBC, Tim Cook expressed the fact that Apple was expanding manufacturing operations into the U.S. as if it would be a big deal - but 200 jobs? He may as well have not even brought it up.

I definitely smell a public relations stunt. Although, at the end of the day, like many people in this thread have already said, some jobs being brought to America is better than none at all.

Thankfully the U.S. unemployment rate, although very slowly, is beginning to drop -- one could argue the reasons for that (I'm not an economist yet, so I'm no position to do that), but it is what it is.

Thanks for posting this.
It's got to be small scale to start. You don't just make a gigantic change to your supply line like that with plans for the sort of scale people were thinking. The sort of scale in China right now is not something you can just pop up and get working smoothly in a new place (the US or otherwise). You have to build it up gradually.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:47 AM   #91
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Better than no jobs.
I'm not so sure. We don't do manufacturing very well. China does. In order to increase the world's overall economic standing, specialization of labor dictates that China ought to continue producing computers while the US continues providing to the world what we're best at-- design, engineering, that sort of thing. Basic economics.

Besides, since our factories would be highly automated and require only 200 workers to run, whereas the Chinese factories aren't and require, say, 1000 workers to do the same thing, moving jobs here is actually cutting a significant number of jobs, from a global perspective.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:54 AM   #92
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I hope Apple lets a camera crew in for a detailed tour of the plant once it up and running. I'm interested to see how much of it is automated here in the states.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:54 AM   #93
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Even if the number is true (have my doubs given the source) it's already almost twice that of Lenovo, who created only 115 jobs.

Ref: http://www.recruiter.co.uk/news/2012...ome-in-the-us/
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 10:57 AM   #94
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One thing it gives Apple is the ability to provide Made in USA products for government sales.
In addition,as wages and transportation costs rise they offset higher labor costs in in the USA and Europe; especially if you also get higher productivity. There is also less chance of disruption of the supply chain due to political factors.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 11:00 AM   #95
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Those of you throwing accolades at Apple for 200 jobs crack me up. This is nothing more than a PR stunt and if you can't recognize that than you're even more delusional than I thought.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 11:06 AM   #96
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Better than no jobs.
Political & symbolic move by Apple. Nothing more, nothing less.

Those manufacturing jobs were never here to begin with. Thus we never lost them. Manufacturing was down 7% last month. Our country is completely and utterly broke. Consumption and Credit rule the day. Look at whose funding the credit, where the money comes from, how much of it is provided by government. The US government funded $114 billion of the total $156 billion in total consumer debt in the past year alone. And people are getting excited over 200 jobs LOL. Some of you really have no clue as to what's coming.

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Those of you throwing accolades at Apple for 200 jobs crack me up. This is nothing more than a PR stunt and if you can't recognize that than you're even more delusional than I thought.
Exactly!!!

Cook meets with Obama, poof 200 jobs created.

Remember piss poor economics makes for great politics, & great economics makes bad politics.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 11:19 AM   #97
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There are Apple's females employees everyone was wondering about!

Right there on the assembly line!

And everyone thought Apple didn't like women!
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 11:19 AM   #98
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Well if it's more automated than not:

At least the machines won't be purposely marring our shiny new idevices just because of self-entitlement issues....

I kid, I kid.

Or not.

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Old Dec 8, 2012, 11:19 AM   #99
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Good!

Better than no job!
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 11:30 AM   #100
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This is a joke. 200? And if its the mac pro to be built in america, the lowest money making mac for apple, gives you an idea what apple values made in america. Will be interesting to see what the salary will be for the workers but don't expect it much above minimum wage.
It can't be an important product because U.S. manufacturing cannot retool quickly enough or scale largely enough to produce products for Apple's aggressive development-to-launch schedules.

U.S. manufacturing today is primarily highly technical, customized, and requires highly skilled workers. It is not assembly line. We build ships and airplanes, not iPads. These are slow, complicated endeavors where the delivery date is measured in months and years, not days or weeks.
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