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Old Dec 9, 2012, 01:13 AM   #176
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gotta start somewhere. hopefully that number will continue to increase
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 01:22 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Ted Witcher View Post
Yeah, Americans have never done assembly-line work, or even anything tedious, ever... like, in the whole history.

building cars is tedious and repetitive..you make enough of those !

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Originally Posted by wikus View Post
This 200 number is almost as impressive as Apple's very generous 10% off deals during black Friday.
Mmm as much as we can criticise MS...Bill has certainly given his fair share away...100 million plus now isn't it ?

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I was more happy when there was just 1 Jobs.
lol
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 02:13 AM   #178
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Well, that doesn't go very far in aiding our unemployment crisis, but I guess it's a start.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 03:16 AM   #179
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Only 200 and 100 from the other guy. Shameful. Better than no job, well suck it. Jobless Americans are by the thousands in each state, they need to do better than that crap.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 03:25 AM   #180
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Only 200 and 100 from the other guy. Shameful. Better than no job, well suck it. Jobless Americans are by the thousands in each state, they need to do better than that crap.
They who?

Apple is under no obligation to create manufacturing jobs in the US. They already employee more than 15,000 people in the US.

You want more manufacturing jobs here? Tell your state legislators to make it more attractive for manufacturers to be here.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 04:23 AM   #181
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Only 200 and 100 from the other guy. Shameful. Better than no job, well suck it. Jobless Americans are by the thousands in each state, they need to do better than that crap.
Many of these "Jobless Americans" were making good money at some point... but their job got eliminated due to downsizing when the economy took a dive.

If you were once making $80,000 a year... but now you're jobless... I doubt you'd want to work at Apple's computer assembly factory anyway.

Oh... and there are plenty of jobs... just not many jobs like you used to have.

Again... if you were making $80,000 a year... you won't be taking a job at Staples or McDonalds (both of which are hiring at a store near you)
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 05:31 AM   #182
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Will this mean a drop in quality? American manufacturing has a poor reputation compared to countries like Germany and Japan. Look at american cars they are a laughing stock.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 06:03 AM   #183
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Yes, but nowhere near as bad as china. Bottom line if you want goods for pennies on the dollar, you go to China, if you want hyper sweatshop goods like thewitt oversees, then China is the place for you. 14yr old engineers with no education/expertise and hand soldering with templates for $2/hr, Sounds like the way of the future and the rolls royce of quality manufacturing. Foxxconn has been trying to make logic boards for the last decade and they suck terribly at doing so, its Apples #1 routine part to fail across all lines from 2000-2012. You get what you pay for.

Apple probably has 10-12 engineers in China to make sure no ones frying up parts. Theyre just too greedy and too cheap to bring it back to the US. Up until Tim's cost cutting decision in 2006 to move Assembly to Shenzhen, your macs were made in NORCAL and SOCAL and Ireland, they had no problem affording it then, they can aford it 100 times over, now. Macs were cheaper and had more expensive parts inside then too.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 06:34 AM   #184
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Will this mean a drop in quality? American manufacturing has a poor reputation compared to countries like Germany and Japan. Look at american cars they are a laughing stock.
Well there was that whole Toyota recall... Where you know the cars would accelerate into ****...lol
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 06:40 AM   #185
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Will this mean a drop in quality? American manufacturing has a poor reputation compared to countries like Germany and Japan. Look at american cars they are a laughing stock.
Mercedes had a 8 year run of poor quality control. The T60 BMW M5 was a disaster.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 06:55 AM   #186
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It's weird that Apple would go with Foxconn for US manufacturing. Why use the same company that causes all the problems and controversy with manufacturing in China? I mean, Apple could open up their own manufacturing facility and then not have to pay a third party anything.

Regardless, it's nice to at least get a few jobs back in the US. Here's to hoping more come along, and that people get the educations necessary to fill them.
They will use Foxconn because they have the experience working with then, and they know how to open factories, hire people, set up the production lines like Apple wants, etc....

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Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post
Many of these "Jobless Americans" were making good money at some point... but their job got eliminated due to downsizing when the economy took a dive.

If you were once making $80,000 a year... but now you're jobless... I doubt you'd want to work at Apple's computer assembly factory anyway.

Oh... and there are plenty of jobs... just not many jobs like you used to have.

Again... if you were making $80,000 a year... you won't be taking a job at Staples or McDonalds (both of which are hiring at a store near you)
http://www.indeed.com/m/jobs?q=80K&l=

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Originally Posted by Bantz View Post
Will this mean a drop in quality? American manufacturing has a poor reputation compared to countries like Germany and Japan. Look at american cars they are a laughing stock.
Very inconsistent quality everywhere nowadays.
Made in the US, helps get better response for defective product as it is more expensive to produce a replacement.
If they indeed increase the warranty period of their products, that will be better quality. Apple has the money to afford it, and it does mean a way better PR stunt.
Get Mac, proudly made in the USA, and will last longer, 3 years warranty, Apple Care optional.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 06:55 AM   #187
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It's really just...

A token gesture. So they can appease a lot of Americans by putting 'Made in USA' on a few products. Laughable.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 07:18 AM   #188
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The only reason this is happening is because our labor force has now weakened so much that they'll accept lower wages than living in this nation requires.

We're going to see plenty of manufacturing jobs come back, at less hours, less pay, little to no "benefits", and lesser working conditions. We are playing the race to the bottom (a system set up largely by the USA when it was beneficial at the beginning of globalization) and its come full circle.
Anyone that feels this way would be well served with returning to school and investing in a real degree, which instantly improves employability and salary.

Showing up and doing a job any uneducated person can be trained to do in a few weeks will be compensated accordingly.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 07:43 AM   #189
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Is this a way to repatriate overseas income?

It seems that Apple could somehow give their income to Foxconn (an extra $2 per iOs device would do) and have them bring the money into the country as a new factory with a big Apple on the top. Everybody is happy.

I'm not saying this negatively.

I have heard stories of Japanese companies buying US golf courses and somehow handing them over to US companies therefore repatriating overseas income in some form.

I just think there might be a loophole.

and yes I liked it better when there was one Jobs as well.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 11:04 AM   #190
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Anyone that feels this way would be well served with returning to school and investing in a real degree, which instantly improves employability and salary.

Showing up and doing a job any uneducated person can be trained to do in a few weeks will be compensated accordingly.
Maybe you should do some reading on the current economy. I work at the Geeksquad as I pay my way through college part time. I have coworkers whom have their bachelors in IT & computer science, but guess what, THEY'RE WORKING AT BEST BUY. These are people who have been let go from steady good paying IT & support jobs previously.

Every month when the jobs numbers come out how about you subtract the number of retail and fast food jobs, then tell me how abundant jobs for those with degrees are.

In short, wake up.

It's not about "feeling" a certain way. The race to the bottom is a well known issue in international relations. We loved it the first 50 years because it allowed for us to get cheap goods for a booming middle class while having economic influence all over the world. Now we are getting the blowback as our own politicians try to to join the race as a way of (incorrectly) fixing the economy. Lower wages means higher profits, but it doesn't eliminate the real world debt burden of the workers, sorry, I forgot in your eyes they are lowly pieces of machinery.

So tell me, which part of my edumacation did I miss out on to not understand these well documented (for over 40 years now) economic phenomena? This is the exact scenario that has been laid out many times from the likes of Friedman all the way to Krudgman.

Last edited by NT1440; Dec 9, 2012 at 11:10 AM.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 12:50 PM   #191
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Maybe you should do some reading on the current economy. I work at the Geeksquad as I pay my way through college part time. I have coworkers whom have their bachelors in IT & computer science, but guess what, THEY'RE WORKING AT BEST BUY. These are people who have been let go from steady good paying IT & support jobs previously.

Every month when the jobs numbers come out how about you subtract the number of retail and fast food jobs, then tell me how abundant jobs for those with degrees are.

In short, wake up.

It's not about "feeling" a certain way. The race to the bottom is a well known issue in international relations. We loved it the first 50 years because it allowed for us to get cheap goods for a booming middle class while having economic influence all over the world. Now we are getting the blowback as our own politicians try to to join the race as a way of (incorrectly) fixing the economy. Lower wages means higher profits, but it doesn't eliminate the real world debt burden of the workers, sorry, I forgot in your eyes they are lowly pieces of machinery.

So tell me, which part of my edumacation did I miss out on to not understand these well documented (for over 40 years now) economic phenomena? This is the exact scenario that has been laid out many times from the likes of Friedman all the way to Krudgman.
Having Education or a degree is not the only success factor in a professional career, it is necessary but not sufficient.
IT is the professional field with a lot of opportunities for many out there. If they want a paycheck just for showing up and have a not challenging career maybe best buy is the best they can have. If they can add value to any company then they are hired. Life is full of choices the ones you make are up to you, you are responsible of your own destiny. If SJ told the world something, was simply paraphrasing Wayne Gretzky, just google it if you don't know it.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 12:53 PM   #192
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Having Education or a degree is not the only success factor in a professional career, it is necessary but not sufficient.
IT is the professional field with a lot of opportunities for many out there. If they want a paycheck just for showing up and have a not challenging career maybe best buy is the best they can have. If they can add value to any company then they are hired. Life is full of choices the ones you make are up to you, you are responsible of your own destiny. If SJ told the world something, was simply paraphrasing Wayne Gretzky, just google it if you don't know it.
They are only there because of mass layoffs, one was at his workplace for over 20 years and is now un-hirable in that field because of his age. Way to ignore the state of the world, have fun in your fantasies.

By the way, the underlined sounds like a pathetically narrow econ 101 class. You know, the intro class that everyone takes to get an understanding of the model. Then you take the other classes that focus on all the exceptions that actually drive the economic reasoning.

Race to the bottom, read up on it, then take a look out your window and tell me that is not exactly what is going on at the macro level.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 01:02 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by NT1440 View Post
Maybe you should do some reading on the current economy. I work at the Geeksquad as I pay my way through college part time. I have coworkers whom have their bachelors in IT & computer science, but guess what, THEY'RE WORKING AT BEST BUY. These are people who have been let go from steady good paying IT & support jobs previously.

Every month when the jobs numbers come out how about you subtract the number of retail and fast food jobs, then tell me how abundant jobs for those with degrees are.

In short, wake up.

It's not about "feeling" a certain way. The race to the bottom is a well known issue in international relations. We loved it the first 50 years because it allowed for us to get cheap goods for a booming middle class while having economic influence all over the world. Now we are getting the blowback as our own politicians try to to join the race as a way of (incorrectly) fixing the economy. Lower wages means higher profits, but it doesn't eliminate the real world debt burden of the workers, sorry, I forgot in your eyes they are lowly pieces of machinery.

So tell me, which part of my edumacation did I miss out on to not understand these well documented (for over 40 years now) economic phenomena? This is the exact scenario that has been laid out many times from the likes of Friedman all the way to Krudgman.
The value of a computer science degree has shrank dramatically as the number of degreed applicants has far outpaced job growth in that sector. Translation, computer science majors are a dime a dozen so business can drive wages down because there is no shortage of eager applicants who desperately want a check and experience.

It's not all that mysterious. It doesn't help that many computer science majors can't code worth a damn which is the much greater educational commodity these days when it comes to IT; compared to your typical Devry and Stevens Henagar A+, N+, MCSE paper tiger even though both may have computer science degrees.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 01:03 PM   #194
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 01:04 PM   #195
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The value of a computer science degree has shrank dramatically as the number of degreed applicants has far outpaced job growth in that sector. Translation, computer science majors are a dime a dozen so business can drive wages down because there is no shortage of eager applicants who desperately want a check and experience.

It's not all that mysterious. It doesn't help that many computer science majors can't code worth a damn which is the much greater educational commodity these days when it comes to IT; compared to your typical Devry and Stevens Henagar A+, N+, MCSE paper tiger even though both may have computer science degrees.
....

Seriously, go read up on the race to the bottom, it covers the boom and bust of specific fields. Everything you're saying fall exactly into that model, you're fully agreeing with me whether you realize it or not.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 01:08 PM   #196
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They are only there because of mass layoffs, one was at his workplace for over 20 years and is now un-hirable in that field because of his age. Way to ignore the state of the world, have fun in your fantasies.

By the way, the underlined sounds like a pathetically narrow econ 101 class. You know, the intro class that everyone takes to get an understanding of the model. Then you take the other classes that focus on all the exceptions that actually drive the economic reasoning.

Race to the bottom, read up on it, then take a look out your window and tell me that is not exactly what is going on at the macro level.
What are their skills,? after 20 years in IT, they should know that if they are not working on something that is in demand they need to re focus. I am not blaming then, but every now and them we have to reinvent ourselves, that is the reality of the economy. Thinking that because we have X number of years of experience in a particular files is not enough to keep us employed. Companies are greedy and if they no Ionger see value in us, they simple lay us off. It is business and if they can offer value to any IT company they will get hired, as simple as that. IT or tech skills are not the only feature that make us employables. Age is a myth, if they indeed can demonstrate that can perform and keep up age is not relevant. I know about some IT opening are they skilled in AVAYA? PM and I can connect them with a consulting company that is looking for professionals with this skill.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 01:14 PM   #197
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....

Seriously, go read up on the race to the bottom, it covers the boom and bust of specific fields. Everything you're saying fall exactly into that model, you're fully agreeing with me whether you realize it or not.
It's not a race to the bottom. It's common sense and good education and career planning.

The same thing happened to business majors 15 years ago and lawyers 10 years ago. Saturation kills demand and pay. It is classic supply and demand, not some nefarious globalist master plan.

Last edited by Technarchy; Dec 9, 2012 at 01:24 PM.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 01:23 PM   #198
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Both Steve Jobs and Tim Cook have stated that the reason manufacturing isn't done in the US is that we don't teach the skills in our schools anymore that are needed for these jobs. I've even heard them say that the education system would need to be reformed to bring manufacturing jobs to the US.

I have never understood this.

I in no way want to devalue to the service and work by people who work in manufacturing, but what are the skills they're talking about? Even if you had a background in engineering, you'd need the same on-the-job training for putting together an iPhone as anyone else.

Frankly, because this has always sounded like BS to me (and there perhaps is an angle of it I don't get), I was frustrated that Brian Williams didn't challenge Tim Cook when he repeated that famous explanation.

So, I started thinking to myself, if these are jobs which Americans are too ignorant to work at, presumably we'll be extending work visas to Chinese people who are educated in the ways of manufacturing to come to the US to work at this new factory.
Well when I was in high school, I got a job at a factory soldering small electronic parts. I didn't know it at the time but all the employees were mentally challenged or handicapped as we used to call them. They would sit in the same spot all day without moving putting together these small intricate parts in the device, then soldering them ever so delicately. In short, I lasted one day. I did not have the mental acuity to sit there hovered over a magnifying glass putting tiny parts together and soldering them correctly. I was able to make one good device in the day I was there compared with one an hour the others were making.

I think Jobs was talking about the type of education we are giving ourselves. There is no vocational school to learn about factory jobs or how to do them. It is not as simple as on the job training. One must be "able" to handle that type of work. Seems like everyones goal here is to go to college, ring up a hundred grand in debt, and hope to find a job. There are no more jobs and the immigrants are taking what little are left. The only areas that are seeing growth are in the medical/healthcare industry. Nurses, pharmacists, doctors, etc are in demand. Even Microsoft is laying off workers in the U.S. Just my 2 cents.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 01:26 PM   #199
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So tell me, which part of my edumacation did I miss out on to not understand these well documented (for over 40 years now) economic phenomena? This is the exact scenario that has been laid out many times from the likes of Friedman all the way to Krudgman.
It sounds like you simply don't yet have the perspective to understand how the real world works. You seem to have the same perspective as a lot of kids these days, who think that life is all about achievements and that once you have achieved something (a degree in a given field) you should be rewarded by someone (with a job). You will learn, eventually, that it's no ones "job" in this world to create jobs for others. Each and every job in existence was created so that the employee holding that job could make the creator of the job more money. If you don't have skills that can justify such a "reward" in exchange for your degree, then guess what? You guessed wrong and spent 4 years learning some skills that aren't worth as much as you were led to believe.

So suck it up and go out there and create your own job if you really think you can create value.

My guess is that like most of the helpless kids today, the concept of creating value is still a distant concept. You'll get it eventually, but first you have to lose the entitled attitude.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 01:26 PM   #200
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It's not a race to the bottom. It's common sense and good education and career planning.

The same thing happened to business majors 15 years ago and lawyers 10 years ago. Saturation kills demand and pay. It is classic supply and demand, not some nefarious globalist master plan.
Again, too much micro, no macro whatsoever.

You say its not a race to the bottom, but everything you say falls squarely within its model. It's not nefarious, that is just the structure of worldwide open markets and capitalism. There are no bad guys meeting in dark rooms, this is the nature of capitalism and we've seen these patterns before all over the world.

I'm working 30+ hours a week at $10.75 an hour while paying for part time college and doing frequent disaster relief trips around the country (this year I'm going to New Orleans to build houses). How the **** is that entitled?

I'm working my way through life and helping as many people as I can (I could charge them, but I choose not to) along the way. Entitled my ass.

Last edited by NT1440; Dec 9, 2012 at 01:34 PM.
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