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Old Dec 11, 2012, 10:51 AM   #51
seecoolguy
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Originally Posted by DeathChill View Post
Apple generally tries to do things to create a consistent and smooth user experience, but this whole subscription thing is just awful and always has been. Every app that has some subscription service that doesn't want to use Apple's system has to work around it and it just makes a huge mess for everyone.
I didn't know that, and it does make sense, if I subscribe to something in an app I would want to quickly unsubscribe right from apple's site, plus my creditcard is not all over the net just one location, so that can make it smooth and convenient...
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 10:53 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Dr McKay View Post
Say you work for Gamestop and someone bought a copy of World of Warcraft, should Blizzard have to pay 30% of each monthly subscription charge to Gamestop?
Also, does Gamestop charge you* hundreds of dollars to enter their store?

*the customer
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 10:53 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by inkswamp View Post
You should try reading John Gruber's Daring Fireball. It routinely posts things that are critical of Apple. I'm not sure what "DaringFireball" is but clearly it's not the same site I look at every day.
The only time I've seen him be critical on Apple is on issues that Apple already publicly acknowledges, never beforehand (unless it is a software bug).

Regardless of what you say, there is a bias on Gruber's site and The Loop.

And "I'm not sure what 'DaringFireball'? Very mature.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 10:53 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by tbrinkma View Post

"Unclear" again? Once Microsoft removes the 'sign up' link, it'll be good to go. That's exactly how all of these sorts of disputes have been resolved in the past.
From the article: "The report claims that Microsoft has offered to remove the subscription options from the SkyDrive app, but Apple has still declined to allow updates to the app."
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 10:54 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Dr McKay View Post
Say you work for Gamestop and someone bought a copy of World of Warcraft, should Blizzard have to pay 30% of each monthly subscription charge to Gamestop?
Should they have to? No. It's up to them. If Gamestop wants to sell subscriptions for the service and Blizzard wants to pay them a commission, they make a deal.

If Blizzard wants to give WoW away free and only charge a subscription, should Gamestop be required to stock it?
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 10:54 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
When I ran a retail store, we charged a commission when we sold third-party services. Nobody thought this was strange or childish.
Thank you, the people on this forum who are bashing Apple about the 30% are nothing more than armchair CEO's.

Firstly, in app purchases allow the 3rd parties to make money by way of using Apple's vehicle. So for example, any developer could install a free app in the App Store and then make money only through in-app sales. That way they could escape paying Apple anything but then they get to use Apple's vehicle to do it. That's the stupid mentality of some these armchair CEO's here. That's basically stealing.

Secondly, Microsoft has more money than Apple so I find it hilarious that these armchair CEO's are siding with MS's tactics of making money through Apple without paying one red cent to Apple.
Truth, MS can't make any real money from their own dead Windows Phone 7/8 system so they try and make money through Apple underhandedly and the armchair CEO's here support it. Microsoft has never been an angel and their Steve Ballmer will never have a halo over his head.

The armchair CEO's here aren't Apple enthusiasts, they are on the team of "I hate Apple and Always Will".
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 10:58 AM   #57
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Upon a reread, this is the source of the problem...
Quote:
The report claims that Microsoft has offered to remove the subscription options from the SkyDrive app, but Apple has still declined to allow updates to the app. It is unclear why Apple would have refused such an offer, as many similar apps such as Dropbox operate under this model.
My guess... Microsoft are trying to rush through a update containing a new subs button and critical bugfix. Apple have knocked it back because of the subs button. MS are pleading to let it through because of the critical bug but with the promise of removing the offending subscription button in a following submission. Apple have still refused, understandably, as the submitted App still breaks the rules.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 10:58 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by HenryDJP View Post
Firstly, in app purchases allow the 3rd parties to make money by way of using Apple's vehicle. So for example, any developer could install a free app in the App Store and then make money only through in-app sales. That way they could escape paying Apple anything but then they get to use Apple's vehicle to do it. That's the stupid mentality of some these armchair CEO's here. That's basically stealing.
  1. Microsoft have to pay Apple a yearly subscription as a developer.
  2. Microsoft have to buy and use Apple desktop level hardware to develop applications on iOS.
  3. Consumers have to pay Apple hundreds of Dollars/Euros/Pounds/Yen/Whatever to have access to these applications

Don't you think third parties and consumers pony up enough money already? People are acting like it's a free ride for consumers and developers to use Apple's services.

EDIT: And that armchair CEO thing? Rather than have a discussion, it's better to try and belittle those with a differing opinion to your own?

Nice!
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Last edited by ChazUK; Dec 11, 2012 at 11:17 AM.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:00 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by bbeagle View Post
MacRumors is increasingly turning into FOX news. What a misleading article with no facts, just assumptions, and relentless Apple bashing.

For those who will respond with 'What's misleading?' Everything. Has Microsoft actually submitted an app update? We don't know. Is Apple not allowing an app update to be approved? We don't know. Is Microsoft upset with Apple? We don't know. Is Apple upset with Microsoft? We don't know. Just assumption after assumption is all this 'article' is.
It's called MacRUMORS not MacFACTS. Rumors are all assumptions until proven true. Your "we don't know" argument could be said of everything every posted. Since we readers never really have true inside knowledge.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:02 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Windlasher View Post
Needs them how? There are MANY alternatives to OFFICE. Office is bloatware. Most users don't use 90% of the "features", so there are many alternatives.
Yes there are alternatives to office, but in the vast majority of corporate environments they are not used. Why? Because they are not Office. Simple as that and while some of them are good they aren't 100% compatible and that makes a difference. The same goes for the Project alternatives and the Visio alternatives aren't a patch on Visio.

Apple needs Office because it needs that level of compatibility in the corporate world to be taken seriously. I use a Mac in my every day work, but I'm very much in the minority and I couldn't survive without Office - I've tried.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:03 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yvan256 View Post
The more you rely on others for your services, the more you get screwed.

In a fight between two companies, you might not be the target but you still suffer collateral damage.

Host your own website. In the process you get your own email addresses and your own FTP accounts.

I just wish people would add regular FTP as an additional option to all the iCloud and DropBox craziness.
Agree wholeheartedly. These companies are battling it out over who "owns" the customer, and the end-user gets caught in the middle. Ditto with the Apple/Google maps spat - a superior solution was replaced with an inferior one for business/political reasons.

I guess this is what happens when bean-counters run companies instead of engineers/designers. Better bottom line for the company, worse experience for the end-user.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:04 AM   #62
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It's not fair for Apple to take 30% from an in app subscription. Maybe they should take 30% from my netflix account too because i signed up for it using a Mac. I understand them taking a share of app sales, but not subscriptions. It's wrong.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:04 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by HenryDJP View Post
Thank you, the people on this forum who are bashing Apple about the 30% are nothing more than armchair CEO's.

Firstly, in app purchases allow the 3rd parties to make money by way of using Apple's vehicle. So for example, any developer could install a free app in the App Store and then make money only through in-app sales. That way they could escape paying Apple anything but then they get to use Apple's vehicle to do it. That's the stupid mentality of some these armchair CEO's here. That's basically stealing.

Secondly, Microsoft has more money than Apple so I find it hilarious that these armchair CEO's are siding with MS's tactics of making money through Apple without paying one red cent to Apple.
Truth, MS can't make any real money from their own dead Windows Phone 7/8 system so they try and make money through Apple underhandedly and the armchair CEO's here support it. Microsoft has never been an angel and their Steve Ballmer will never have a halo over his head.

The armchair CEO's here aren't Apple enthusiasts, they are on the team of "I hate Apple and Always Will".
Apple has more money and this has nothing to do with IAP.
MS removed the subscription feature and Apple still won't approve.
The signup pages are on 3rd party apps, not the SkyDrive app itself.

Reading comprehension around here is sorely lacking.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:04 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
When I ran a retail store, we charged a commission when we sold third-party services. Nobody thought this was strange or childish.
The problem is its hard to argue that Apple is really selling the other product.

There are lots of apps that are free and just act as gateways to web services that work by charging their members a monthly subscription (like this Skydrive app, the Dropbox app, the Netflix app, etc). It's totally absurd that Apple should be getting 30% of their repeating revenue because somebody used a conveniently-placed purchase link rather than going through some other, more obscure method.

In short - Apple is doing no work for that 30%. They're just using the fact that they can cut you off via the AppStore to make sure they get some of your business's recurring revenue. It's not even a small amount - it's a third. It's monopolistic behaviour because Apple know that iOS users are such an attractive market. Apple aren't serving any content for that fee, and these companies have their own card processing provisions. It means that if you're Netflix, if somebody taps the "subscribe" link on an iOS device, you only get 2/3 of the revenue you used to get. And that 30% cut will be repeated forever.

Web browser vendors don't ask for a cut of every transaction that goes through a web browser (and every subsequent transaction of a repeating payment). No desktop operating system does.

Mobile operating systems are just becoming all about money and vendors and carriers and everyone just trying to take it away from developers (who aren't making as much as many seem to think).
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:05 AM   #65
mw360
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Originally Posted by ChazUK View Post
  1. Microsoft have to pay Apple a yearly subscription as a developer.
  2. Microsoft have to buy and use Apple dasktop level hardware to develop applications on iOS.
  3. Consumers have to pay Apple hundreds of Dollars/Euros/Pounds/Yen/Whatever to have access to these applications

Don't you think third parties and consumers pony up enough money already? People are acting like it's a free ride for consumers and developers to use Apple's services.

EDIT: And that armchair CEO thing? Rather than have a discussion, it's better to try and belittle those with a differing opinion to your own?

Nice!
You think buying a couple of Macs and a $100 developer account is on the same scale as a global personal cloud service? Those things are potentially worth billions now, possibly trillions to the dominant service a few decades from now. $100 and a couple of Macs...?
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:06 AM   #66
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Microsoft Store?

Strange that Microsoft and Apple haven't been able to work out a solution to this impasse. Two big companies with as much history together ought to have developed a way to talk to each other, if not necessarily resolve disputes.

Microsoft can place the SkyDrive app in the Microsoft Store, in the Google Play store, the iTunes App store and wherever it wants that fits their objective. To play in the iTunes store, they have to play by the rules. If the rules are unfair, if they are applied inconsistently, if it doesn't work well with a particular business model, everyone has choices. I think people make the choice to put their apps in the iTunes store because there is generally more money generated from people using their apps on iOS devices.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:08 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Saladinos View Post
The problem is its hard to argue that Apple is really selling the other product.
No, it's not. Their store. They conduct the transaction.

Quote:
There are lots of apps that are free and just act as gateways to web services that work by charging their members a monthly subscription (like this Skydrive app, the Dropbox app, the Netflix app, etc). It's totally absurd that Apple should be getting 30% of their repeating revenue because somebody used a conveniently-placed purchase link rather than going through some other, more obscure method.

In short - Apple is doing no work for that 30%. They're just using the fact that they can cut you off via the AppStore to make sure they get some of your business's recurring revenue. It's not even a small amount - it's a third. It's monopolistic behaviour because Apple know that iOS users are such an attractive market. Apple aren't serving any content for that fee, and these companies have their own card processing provisions. It means that if you're Netflix, if somebody taps the "subscribe" link on an iOS device, you only get 2/3 of the revenue you used to get. And that 30% cut will be repeated forever.

Web browser vendors don't ask for a cut of every transaction that goes through a web browser (and every subsequent transaction of a repeating payment). No desktop operating system does.

Mobile operating systems are just becoming all about money and vendors and carriers and everyone just trying to take it away from developers (who aren't making as much as many seem to think).
"Other people don't do it" isn't a sound argument. The fact is that charging a commission to sell third-party services is a common business arrangement. Essentially, Apple is getting paid for the referral and conducting the transaction.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:08 AM   #68
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Well, rules are rules.
Fair or not — thankfully they apply to all.

— — —

As far as I know Googles app-store cuts match those of Apples (30%), while these are the rules on Microsofts own store:

The Windows Store will be the only way Windows 8 users can purchase the new Metro Style apps, and Microsoft will attempt to attract developers by taking a smaller cut than Apple and Google on successful apps. Apps will be priced from $1.49 to $999.99, although free and trial apps will also be available.

Apple has relied on a huge user base to justify its 30% commission on apps sold through its store, as well as taking a slice of in-app sales. Microsoft also plans to take an initial 30%, but will reduce its commission on strong selling apps.

“The revenue share base is 70%, but when an app achieves $25k in revenue — aggregated across all sales in every market — that app moves to 80% revenue share for the lifetime of that app,” said Ted Dworkin, partner program manager for the Store in a Microsoft blog.
Developers have the freedom to use Microsoft’s transaction service or use their own and Microsoft will take 0% of in-app purchase revenue
“So, once an app establishes a bit of success, we increase the revenue share to 80% to reflect and reward that success,” he said.

... Microsoft is also hoping to attract partners by shunning the in-app payment commissions that have angered companies using Apple's platform.
Companies such as publishers that want to charge for content through their apps will be able to use either their own payment processes or Microsoft's in-house option, the company said. “Developers have the freedom to use Microsoft’s transaction service or use their own and Microsoft will take 0% of in-app purchase revenue,” the company said.

Source: PC Pro - http://bit.ly/TNBNrl
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:12 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Mr. Gates View Post
Just make it a better web App.
But to do that, MS would have to support HTML 5...
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:14 AM   #70
mw360
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Originally Posted by rjohnstone View Post
Apple has more money and this has nothing to do with IAP.
MS removed the subscription feature and Apple still won't approve.
The signup pages are on 3rd party apps, not the SkyDrive app itself.

Reading comprehension around here is sorely lacking.
Check your own reading comprehension. The article does not say they removed the feature.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:15 AM   #71
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When I ran a retail store, we charged a commission when we sold third-party services. Nobody thought this was strange or childish.
Hear, hear. Apple gets a cut for Microsoft products that they sell in Apple's retail stores.

How is Microsoft handling this in their new App Stores? Are they letting vendors sell their software for cheap and not taking a cut on in-app purchases?
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:16 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by gotluck View Post
Quoted for Truth

Oh, what iOS could be if Apple loosened the noose a little bit

Seriously, Android would have no chance.
an addware riddled mess of crappy malware disguised as a fart apps ? ..oh wait...
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:16 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by FSMBP View Post
The only time I've seen him be critical on Apple is on issues that Apple already publicly acknowledges, never beforehand (unless it is a software bug).

Regardless of what you say, there is a bias on Gruber's site and The Loop.
Sure, there's bias in Gruber's site. There's bias in every site/blog but the question is whether or not it's unreasonable to the extent that it makes the site not worth reading. Gruber, in my experience, isn't terribly biased despite being primarily an Apple-focused site.

And no, Gruber often brings up his own gripes about Apple that haven't been acknowledged elsewhere beforehand. They're primarily about UI issues which seems to be his pet peeve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSMBP View Post
And "I'm not sure what 'DaringFireball'? Very mature.
I pointed that out because it's clear to me that you don't really read Gruber's site frequently enough to criticize it accurately. The fact that you didn't even write the name of the site correctly is a dead-giveaway. Try following his site if you want to criticize it. There are legitimate things to criticize him for (one being that he occasionally engages other sites/bloggers in extended pissing matches that are far less interesting to his readers than he assumes) but an unreasonable bias in favor of Apple isn't one.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:16 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by rjohnstone View Post
Apple has more money and this has nothing to do with IAP.
MS removed the subscription feature and Apple still won't approve.
The signup pages are on 3rd party apps, not the SkyDrive app itself.

Reading comprehension around here is sorely lacking.
Since you're bashing me now, maybe you're the one with reading comprehension issues. I was referring to the existing poster's comments here, not the article. Put your glasses on.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:16 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by skate71290 View Post
Microsoft acts the bigger man and Apple acts like a child
It's always been the case - especially if you read Steve Job's biography!
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