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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:22 AM   #101
charlituna
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Originally Posted by Apple Corps View Post
I agree - 53 buttons on my Comcast remote - maybe Sir Johnnie is tackling the human interface on this kludgy aspect of the tv experience.
Imagine if Comcast made a remote app. Inspired by Forstall.

And it's Sir JONY
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:22 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by izyreal View Post
You are making my point! It doesn't make sense for Apple to inovate a dying technology. 4k resolution delivered from the cloud wirelessly to an Apple TV is the future. At this point, that technology does not exist, thus if Apple creates it, then that is inovation.

The light at the end of the blu ray tunnel is pretty bright.
The light at the end is bright for people who toiled in the tunnel. Apple cheaped out by skipping Blu Ray because they were too cheap to pay the royalties.

And 4k resolution delivered from the cloud? Its already there in Youtube. Okay not everything like movies or TV shows, yet.

Try streaming a 4K video in youtube for like 5 mins and watch your network meter grow by GB's...

Unless the infrastructure to support 4K does't exist no matter what Apple does it will not take off. Its like talking about Hydrogen cars. The cars are there but the fueling stations are not.

And I don't see the ISP's giving up their profit margins in the US by giving consumers low quality/bandwidth service, yet. True, US ISP's are no where among the worlds best. They also see fast internet as a threat to their TV business. Remember the 250 GB cap/month by Comcast and how it was throttling the internet to its own sites and slowing others? Netflix had to bust their hypocrisy by posting data of who provided the best bandwidth.

So there comes FCC net neutrality laws which was scuttled, if I remember correctly by John McCain because he recieved some money from Comcast/NBC during his election.

With dinosaur's like these good luck on 4K becoming mainstream through the cloud.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:25 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by ThunderSkunk View Post
Apple TV in 5 easy steps:

1. Buy Dish/Netflix, integrate w/iTunes store
2. App Store w/iOS Games
3. iPhone/iPad configurable game controller app
4. Siri via your iPad/iPhone
5. $1000 price tag
User interface?
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:27 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by charlituna View Post
And they a likely working on that. If they are trying to quality and price in their offerings, especially TV, to position the iTunes Store as an alternative to cable then they will have to wait until current contracts are up.

So it is possible that they are working on this side of the game, which might not come about until late 2013 or later AND testing a possible TV/display revamp. and both will be released together.

Imagine that Fall event. Tim brings up Eddy to talk about iTunes and he mentions sales, geographic growth. Then goes into new talk about even better quality files with better video, audio, subtitles, new iTunes Extras features that now work on iOS devices including the Apple TV. Hopefully also that all video is now at least 720p and an iTunes plus style upgrade for previous SD purchases etc.

Then we go into the new Apple TV set top box with more storage etc. and then the awesome 'one more thing' of this new display that has the refresh etc to work as a TV. And not just any TV. It's low reflection, IPS, 4k ready and works with passive 3d tech (surprise Disney/Pixar 3d films will be on the store that afternoon). Folks would freak. And if Apple is on board with supporting digital downloads of passive 3d, the war between styles could end quick.

THAT could be how Apple changes television and perhaps without making an actual television set as we know it, but rather a display that can also be a TV.
Couldn't agree more Apple are working hard on getting the content providers on board but judging by the press so far its hard going. I think Apple will ultimately get the contracts in place and their will be a great offering put together by Apple but the question is when. It could take another year to get the contracts all set up and then some to get the Apple offering ready for release. It will be a great keynote when it comes but I don't think its going to be next year and it won't be a 4K offering because the bandwidth required to stream 4K is immense and so far only films are even available in 4k. As for the rest of it your guess is as good as anyone's.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:32 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by dmunz View Post
This has never made sense to me. Television sets are now so commoditized that there seems to be no point to Apple entering the market. Everything Apple would do well fits in a small black box. Why mess with the rest of the set and all the logistics that go with that kind of supply chain.

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Mobile phones were commodity before iPhone. Computers are commodity but Apple is growing and making money with Mac.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:34 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by doelcm82 View Post
I agree with every single thing you say, but disagree with your tone.

Like iMac, Apple TV will be a cinch to set up: "there is no step 3". Also, you will be able to access all of the functions via a single remote (probably an app on your phone or pad). For most, there won't be a tangle of cables coming out the back into the various add-ons (game console, disc player, AppleTV hockey puck).

Apple is talking to content providers, yes.

Sharp displays are fine. Give Sharp the credit for manufacturing the display. Give Apple the credit for putting it into a stylish package that's easy to use. Consider the exact same Sharp display in an Apple TV vs. a regular TV with a cable box, Blu-Ray player, and PlayStation attached, that you can't get to work because your brother-in-law "did something" with the cables in back and screwed up your carefully-configured system, and even he doesn't remember what he did with the PlayStation controller.
I have to agree with that "brother-in-law" thing because it happened exactly to me.

Okay I was being a little cynical not towards Apple for whom I have a very high regard but to the "hype this up" crowd.

Talking about display's the display's Apple uses are often not the best quality. I just bought a MBA and that thread is abound with Apple using LG displays and how many of them had to return them for the one that has a Samsung panel. The one I have is a LG panel and yes the colors seem a little washed up but I calibrated it and I am happy. So Apparently, Apple in spite of charging a premium from its customers isn't that keen on using premium components in it's devices. So when the talk came about the TV, with the screen being 90% of the component or the one based on which it will be judged, I was glad that it was finally choosing a premium component. That's all.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:41 AM   #107
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Apple is already a content negotiations expert

Quote:
Originally Posted by everything-i View Post
Any Apple TV ambitions are dead in the water until they get the content providers on board. When they have the content contracts sorted then we may see something serious in this area but it is unlikely to happen before, there wouldn't be much point.
They can get content. They already have Music, Movies, TV Shows, books and Magazines, Apps.

Why can't they negotiate Streaming live TV.
They could provide Apple Channels. The Equivalent of Sattelite or Cable Channels only sometimes stream live content and at other times running the programming You (the consumer) want to see. They are just one more Cable TV Network Distributor. Only one with a super customer base.

If all those other cable companies can beg, borrow or steal content then why can't Apple? Saying yes to Apple does not exclude other distributors.

You'd think that CNN, ABC, Fox and similar companies would love to deal with one super distributor.

What could go wrong?
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:49 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Nightarchaon View Post
Unless its made by apple, who fail to add new software features to new models to "encourage" people to upgrade, even though the old models are perfectly capable of running the missing "features".

Apple would need to eye a 5 year upgrade cycle, with a 10year feature support on the old models to avoid pissing off all but the most dedicated apple fanboi for the prices apple will likely charge for a TV set.

I have owned three TVs in the last 3 decades, and am just looking at treating myself to a 4th, i know people who are on there 2nd TV set, ever.

My TVs were, a portable TV and shared use of the family TV, then i moved out and got a shiney widescreen 28"CRT, and upgraded that to a "massive 32" 1080i (yes i, not p) TV set, im now looking at jumping to a 50+ inch 1080p passive 3D screen.. and then ill look at super HD in a decades time..

Apples quick turnover of devices does not sit well in the consumer TV world,
I'm just like you with my TV. However, the TV I'm replacing is a non-HDTV rear-projection monstrosity that I got as a hand-me-down. It works fine for now, so I'm holding off to see what Apple brings to the table.

It's a mistake to think there's no market for Apple just because people keep their TVs for a long time. Plenty of iPhone users are still on 3GS. The line at the Apple Store for the latest model doesn't comprise Apple entire user base. I think it's silly to upgrade every year when I signed a two-year contract for the phone. I won't have all the new features: If the iPhone 5S has NFC, then the iPhone 6 will have it, too, and I can wait.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio View Post
for good reason to scrap it

it will be a very niche project.

500$ for a phone - yes.

500$ for a tablet - yes.

$2000 for a tv - no.

will anyone here tell me what would be so compelling to buy a $2000+ tv?
What if you can get that $2000 TV for only $599 (with a two year contract for streaming service)?
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:50 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diode View Post
Kind of like how it isn't innovative to make a phone call?
Agreed.

If there any truth to these rumors, I wonder what the angle will be for these new Apple TVs
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:54 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technarchy View Post
I love that TV makers are trying to beat Apple to the punch with shoddy UI's, wonky voice control and terrible "app" support.

Apple will do something cool and everyone will copy and say it was obvious...what isn't obvious when someone does it first?
For the time being they have their own shoddy ui on apple tv and NO apps. Might as well make sure the atv ui doesn't look and work like **** before they out the tv set.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:56 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio View Post
for good reason to scrap it

it will be a very niche project.

500$ for a phone - yes.

500$ for a tablet - yes.

$2000 for a tv - no.

will anyone here tell me what would be so compelling to buy a $2000+ tv?
Lots of people originally said the iPhone wouldn't work either.

Why would I pay 200 bucks for a phone?
Apple is a computer company - what do they know about cell phones?


We will have to see what could come out of this, but Apple has a way of making things people need before we realize we even want them.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:16 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by dmunz View Post
This has never made sense to me. Television sets are now so commoditized that there seems to be no point to Apple entering the market. Everything Apple would do well fits in a small black box. Why mess with the rest of the set and all the logistics that go with that kind of supply chain.

FWIW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wigby View Post
an apple tv wouldn't be entering the market. a tv panel with built in apple tv os, dvr, siri ui, etc. would be a new market entirely. just like apple did with all previous products. and when you create a market, you get to set the price points meaning they will still get a nice margin per set.
This reminds me of Steve Job's intro to the iPhone. He talked about why he wanted to bring Apple into this market (as much as the iPhone changed the mobile phone market, it did not create a new one. Mobile phones are still mobile phones, they are just MUCH better now thanks to Apple's push in 2007)

Steve talked about some other markets that Apple could have gone into, including video game consoles. I will have to watch the Keynote again for specifics, but bottom line the Mobile Phone market was a much better one to enter for a company that was new to it. Think about the current television market and how saturated it is. It would be great to see Apple bring something new to the table.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:25 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by SmileyBlast! View Post
They can get content. They already have Music, Movies, TV Shows, books and Magazines, Apps.

Why can't they negotiate Streaming live TV.
They could provide Apple Channels. The Equivalent of Sattelite or Cable Channels only sometimes stream live content and at other times running the programming You (the consumer) want to see. They are just one more Cable TV Network Distributor. Only one with a super customer base.

If all those other cable companies can beg, borrow or steal content then why can't Apple? Saying yes to Apple does not exclude other distributors.

You'd think that CNN, ABC, Fox and similar companies would love to deal with one super distributor.

What could go wrong?

With Apple's current attitude very difficult to negotiate any deals with content providers. Every years there is a fight between content providers and Dish/DirecTV... They will simply cutoff the content if distributor doesn't play nice and share revenues. We all know Apple doesn't like to share anything with others, tries to dictate terms.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:32 PM   #114
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It's all about the margins. Flat screen televisions are getting somewhere around 3 to 5 % now. Most Apple products are above 50%. The math is just not there.

Also where do you put them in the Apple Store and the store's storage. You could probably stock 50 iPads in the space it takes to put one packaged TV.

I do agree that having an extra box is a hassle but the logistics are so much easier.

This kind of thing actually makes the argument for a partner. Samsung's new 60" flat panel with gut by Apple...

FWIW
DLM

Last edited by dmunz; Dec 12, 2012 at 12:33 PM. Reason: Typos
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:34 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by dmunz View Post
This has never made sense to me. Television sets are now so commoditized that there seems to be no point to Apple entering the market. Everything Apple would do well fits in a small black box. Why mess with the rest of the set and all the logistics that go with that kind of supply chain.

FWIW
DLM
Completely agreed. The thin margin would defeat Apple's motivation. Perhaps they hold some secrets we yet don't don't know such that it would be compelling to buy this product instead of heavily discount sets from Samsung, Sony, and the likes.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:36 PM   #116
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This is why Forstall is still on the payroll pending his departure.

Apple wants to keep him from going to the TV concatenators (cable, satellite) and partially bypassing the future Apple TV.

The moment he qualifies for his RSU, he's gone.

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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:40 PM   #117
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As much as I love Apple -- I can 100% tell you I will not be purchasing an Apple TV box set, I'm more than content with my Samsung Smart TV.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:06 PM   #118
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Locked down TV? No thanks!
Sure, I bet you can customise the current TVs right now, eh?
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:07 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
...someone really should train TV's to know what source (channel) it is getting and not stretch the image to fit.
All TVs have the ability to automatically letterbox imaves as appropriate. Good luck on finding this hidden feature on any TV. Why this isn't a default setting on every TV is anyone's guess.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:13 PM   #120
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an apple tv wouldn't be entering the market. a tv panel with built in apple tv os, dvr, siri ui, etc. would be a new market entirely. just like apple did with all previous products. and when you create a market, you get to set the price points meaning they will still get a nice margin per set.
Yea like he said an apple tv would be entering the market. And with samsung dominating the consumer reports ratings does apple feel its able to compete?
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:13 PM   #121
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Sharp is a good choice. Their TVs are known to have lesser input lag than Samsung, LG, Sony, and other competitors on models over 40". Let's not forget about 4:4:4 subsampling, which makes image from a MAC/PC look as good as monitors. 70" or bust!
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:13 PM   #122
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All TVs have the ability to automatically letterbox imaves as appropriate. Good luck on finding this hidden feature on any TV. Why this isn't a default setting on every TV is anyone's guess.
That's how the broadcasters send out the signal.

The History channel is a classic example of taking older footage and stretching it to fit 1080.

Matter of fact some local stations charge extra for 1080 HD commercials. This is why you may see a commercial in 1080 then later on see the same commercial letter boxed in 720.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:15 PM   #123
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As Sharp bought Pioneer "Kuru" technology and currently utilizes it in an LED LCD "Elite" display with the darkest blacks currently available on an LED LCD, I'm not surprised. Pioneer made some of the best plasma displays on the market until they closed down their display line, selling off tech to Panasonic and Sharp. In fact, Apple used Pioneer plasma's in their stores to display their Apple TV's.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:19 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Technarchy View Post
I love that TV makers are trying to beat Apple to the punch with shoddy UI's, wonky voice control and terrible "app" support.

Apple will do something cool and everyone will copy and say it was obvious...what isn't obvious when someone does it first?
If other companies have products out in the stores for purchase, it means those companies invented it first and Apple is just playing catch up and doing minor refinements to perfect it.

Apple has always done that, produce _basic_ things and then refine them over the years. The first iPhone didn't have an App store or copy/paste or 3g
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:19 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by dmunz View Post
This has never made sense to me. Television sets are now so commoditized that there seems to be no point to Apple entering the market. Everything Apple would do well fits in a small black box. Why mess with the rest of the set and all the logistics that go with that kind of supply chain.

FWIW
DLM
"The TV industry has a subsidized model that gives everyone a set top box for free. So no one wants to buy a box. Ask TiVo, ask Roku, ask us... ask Google in a few months.

So all you can do is ADD a box to the TV. You just end up with a table full of remotes, a cluster of boxes... and that's what we have today. The only way that's going to change is if you tear up the set top box, give it a new UI, and get it in front of consumers in a way they're going to want it. The TV is going to lose in our eyes until there is a better go to market strategy... otherwise you're just making another TiVo."

-Steve Jobs
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