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Old Dec 12, 2012, 08:25 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manu chao View Post
And how does Apple 'execute' product launches by third-party manufacturers? Promising every manufacturer to purchase at least 50'000 units itself? And then bulldoze them to keep the second-hand price high?
They don't execute product launches by third party manufacturers. But they haven't released anything themselves that would make it compelling to use. Not even their time capsule, AFAIK, has this support. Why would a third party manufacturer want to adopt this tech if Apple doesn't even show much interest. To the best of my knowledge, the only Apple products that are not actually computers that have this support are their displays.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 08:40 PM   #127
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I use to buy Matrox video cards.

Seriously, I think this sort of thing is pretty neat. Maybe not practical for what is available now, but it opens the door for future designs where a mobile device just needs a Thunderbolt port to get Ethernet, external video and USB ports while at the desk.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 08:56 PM   #128
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Cool. Now let's see an upscale version with 2 TB ports, 2 10GBE ports, and all USB ports 3/2 compatible. You know.

Why can't they make a video card with a PCIe connector that resembles the SSD port on a Mac-Mini?
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 09:10 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by lordofthereef View Post
They don't execute product launches by third party manufacturers. But they haven't released anything themselves that would make it compelling to use. Not even their time capsule, AFAIK, has this support. Why would a third party manufacturer want to adopt this tech if Apple doesn't even show much interest. To the best of my knowledge, the only Apple products that are not actually computers that have this support are their displays.
Can you explain me what benefits a NAS (the Time Capsule) would obtain from gaining a TB port? Any NAS will be limited by the speed of the networking protocol and not by any protocol it uses to connect to its attached storage.

The point is simply that Apple is not in the business of selling the type of peripherals that could profit from the inclusion of TB, except for their displays (which they did release in a TB variant early on and which made one of the more compelling cases for TB).
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 09:20 PM   #130
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There is really a lot of confusion in this thread about how Thunderbolt works.

You can plug a miniDisplayPort monitor into the end of a Thunderbolt chain and it should work in most cases. That chain cannot include an Apple Thunderbolt display.

You cannot plug things like an xbox into a Thunderbolt chain and get video to display on your Mac's built-in screen. The dock that this thread is about will not help you do this. You can plug an external miniDisplayPort device into a 2009 24" iMac and use the iMac's screen as a monitor. You would need to use a device that converts HDMI to mDP, like The one I have made by Kanex. On a newer 27" iMac with Thunderbolt ports, you can only input video from a Thunderbolt-equipped computer. As far as I know, there is no HDMI to Thunderbolt adapter that exists to let you plug HDMI devices into an Apple Thunderbolt display. The 20 and 21.5 iMacs do not support Target Display Mode.

You can daisy chain two Thunderbolt displays, but both will only work on some Macs. Some original MacBook Airs had a Thunderbolt chip that only supported one external display.

By the way, they do make Thunderbolt to PCIe slot adapters so you can buy one of those and stick one or two of many different existing PCIe cards (like you would install in a Mac Pro) into the unit. Sonnet makes one of these units, but I don't think it supports a video card. If it did, that would be a way to add 2-8 more screens to a MacBook.


On an unrelated note, I can plug my (work-provided) HP EliteBook into a dock with one click and I get USB 3, gigabit ethernet, DVI, VGA, DisplayPort, audio in/out, and power. And I bought the docking station for around $100.
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Last edited by Arcady; Dec 12, 2012 at 09:35 PM.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 09:42 PM   #131
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What's the point? No Thunderbolt pass through, no FireWire, no eSATA, no PCI, only 1 USB 3.0 & 2 USB 2.0 for $250?
Try again.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 09:43 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Arcady View Post
As far as I know, there is no HDMI to Thunderbolt adapter that exists to let you plug HDMI devices into an Apple Thunderbolt display.
Well there is a company called Blackmagic Design which makes several HDMI capture cards for thunderbolt. The video would of course have to run through the computer.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 09:54 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by APlotdevice View Post
Well there is a company called Blackmagic Design which makes several HDMI capture cards for thunderbolt. The video would of course have to run through the computer.
That would add a delay to the video, which is unacceptable for using an xbox.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 10:04 PM   #134
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No DisplayPort or FW800. I guess I'll still be waiting.

I feel like we've been waiting a long time (almost 2 years) for ThunderBolt technology to become accessible and useful. Even the Apple Thunderbolt Display misses the mark by not including an audio out port (along with all sorts of USB problems, but those are bugs, not design flaws).
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 10:38 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by dBeats View Post
You put this docking station as the last part of a thunderbolt daisy chain...
Yeh, or you could use it as a docking station. Meaning other devices your attaching to go after. Over priced ugly piece of junk.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:09 PM   #136
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id buy one if it had 5 usb 3.0 2hdmi a dvi a vga ethernet esata firewire800 audio in and out
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:35 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by dukebound85 View Post
i want to be able to daisy chain so it needs (what I would want)

*throughput thunderbolt
*why not just usb 3 at this point? 3-4 ports would be great
*ethernet is nice
*dual video out would be great
*audio in out is nice
Should be all USB 3.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nilk View Post
No DisplayPort or FW800. I guess I'll still be waiting.

I feel like we've been waiting a long time (almost 2 years) for ThunderBolt technology to become accessible and useful. Even the Apple Thunderbolt Display misses the mark by not including an audio out port (along with all sorts of USB problems, but those are bugs, not design flaws).
I don't know anyone with a TB display with usb problems including me.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rfitz89 View Post
Well that is just annoying. My dad's dell latitude sits next to me right now in a dock that has both a VGA and DVI out, plus he can run a third monitor from the VGA out on the laptop.....me...I can run one monitor in addition to my laptop screen...
Incorrect.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by manu chao View Post
Since these early TB ports where doubling as mDP ports, using USB 3 ports instead of them would have left the computers with no native external display port, not really a smart idea.

Only once there are two TB ports, one can argue that one should have been a USB 3 port instead. But that really only applies to the rMBPs, as on desktops the number of USB 3 ports is not really limited by the presence of any TB ports.

The only real thing to blame Apple for would be to have introduced USB 3 one year later than other manufacturers.
Apple did this because they were waiting for it to be part of the chipset.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fpnc View Post
I'm not impressed with this device either, unless you really need a one-cable connection to your desktop devices (keyboard, mouse, storage, network, display). I also don't understand why they put the USB 3 port on the front of the dock (why not on the back with the other data ports?).

However, for those asking for more USB 3 ports I doubt that would be very practical since the sustained data rate on those ports would likely have to be lower than the USB 3 maximum (i.e. you couldn't have two USB 3 drives connected to the dock and expect concurrent access at true SuperSpeed, USB 3 date rates).

USB 3 offers 5Gbps while Thunderbolt does dual channel 10Gbps. However, once you connect a display to this dock you'd already be well on your way to using up one of the two Thunderbolt channels (in fact, I think -- but am not sure -- that video has to run over a dedicated Thunderbolt channel, thus on a single channel you can't multiplex video with anything else). That would leave one 10Gbps Thunderbolt channel for everything else and thus having even two UBS 3 ports would mean you'd be at the end of the available bandwidth.

But, even if you could multiplex the video with other data (on a single Thunderbolt channel, which I admit may be possible) you'd still be pretty close to the bandwidth limit of a single Thunderbolt PORT once you had more than two USB 3 SuperSpeed devices connected to the dock (assuming the need for a video connection). I suspect that Matrox is just being a little conservative (safe?) by offering only a single USB 3 port, two might be possible but it would probably be running right up against the theoretical maximum for Thunderbolt (once you include everything else, display, ethernet, audio, and the two USB 2 ports).
5 gb is a theoretical maximum for USB 3 that you will never see while 10 for TB is real.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhand1001 View Post
What the hell is up with the price. You can get a netbook with all those ports and more for less money.
Net books are junk.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post
Thunderbolt serves solely as a revenue stream for Apple. No one really needed Firewire but as long as that port was on there, people were going to buy the accessories anyway.

"Thunderbolt sounds so cool I have to buy stuff to use it!"
That's odd since TB is an Intel technology and they collect licensing fees not Apple.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthereef View Post
If I am not mistaken, Thunderbolt is still exclusive to Macs? THAT is the reason it is a total failure. There are so few people using them, relatively speaking, that there is not a potential to reach hundreds of millions of users you could target if this went to PC. It's good technology, but it is essentially proprietary.
You are mistaken.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesryanbell View Post
I want to see *ALL* thunderbolt accessories and drives at the SAME EXACT PRICE as anything USB3. Absolutely no exceptions.

That's when I'll adopt.

Until then, might as well not exist.
Even though USB doesn't do remotely the things TB is capable of doi g?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wikus View Post
That doesnt change the fact that thunderbolt is dead. No one is buying it, theres hardly any choice in devices and whatever there is to buy, its way overpriced.

Its dead.
It's just warming up. You will be wrong.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by manu chao View Post
Really? You think Apple is getting rich selling $29 TB-to-FW and TB-to-Ethernet adaptors? Apple is not getting any license fees for TB.

And they don't need TB to sell Ethernet adaptors, they sold a USB2-to-Ethernet adaptor before TB and would be selling a USB3-to-TB adaptor now if there were no TB.

And how did Apple made money from FW? Apart from a short period at the beginning, Apple did not collect any licensing fees from FW devices. And Apple did not produce any FW externals themselves, all the money generated with the sale of FW devices went to third-parties.

(And only cheapskates saw no value in FW800 over USB 2.)
Agree. FW800 blows away USB 2 and years later USB 3 has barely reached parity with it. Plenty of FW 400 and 800 devices have been sold over the years and still are. FireWire is far from a failure. Only ignorant people would say that it is.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf The Dog View Post
Professionals needed Firewire, just as professionals need Thunderbolt. Not every technology is for every demographic.
Judging by the many thousands of FW devices sold over the years consumers buy them too. Check any site like New Egg etc. Plenty of FW devices being sold.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:54 PM   #138
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No FireWire support.




....Dead
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:02 AM   #139
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This is a really, really stupid product.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 02:22 AM   #140
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Hmm, just a thought. Maybe the reason for just 2 x USB2 ports is that it's intended for connecting a USB keyboard and mouse for use with a laptop rather than connecting external HDDs/SSDs? USB1.1 would be more than fast enough for a keyboard and mouse.

I've got to agree though, if it's only intended for creating a single cable connection for keyboard, mouse, speakers, and monitor for laptops then it's way over-priced.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 03:09 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Arcady View Post
By the way, they do make Thunderbolt to PCIe slot adapters so you can buy one of those and stick one or two of many different existing PCIe cards (like you would install in a Mac Pro) into the unit. Sonnet makes one of these units, but I don't think it supports a video card. If it did, that would be a way to add 2-8 more screens to a MacBook.
That would take some testing, and it's not a guarantee that these things will run as they would in a mac pro. It's unlikely that they're designed to be hot pluggable. You wouldn't get 8 displays over a 4 lane cap running over thunderbolt.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 04:33 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by wikus View Post

2 years in, and I've still yet to see ONE SINGLE thunderbolt product on a store shelf.
I don't believe you since there are many products with Thunderbolt that are available to buy on the shelf in an Apple store. Walmart? Not so much.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 05:47 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by 92jlee View Post
What is the point in this product?

All macs (apart from air) have built in LAN, USB, display out and in/out audio.. Whats the point? If you need more USB plugs get one of those splitters/extentions etc..
Retina MBP doesn't have LAN, display out is only displayport... My 2011 Macbook Air doesn't have USB 3.0. I'm thinking about using my retina MBP to replace my 1st gen Mac Pro and that means a big DVI display, USB kbd/mouse/EyeTV, speakers, etc... Undesirable to dock/undock all that every time I go mobile. But keep it down to power and 1 thunderbolt? Now you're talking.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 06:18 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by lordofthereef View Post
If I am not mistaken, Thunderbolt is still exclusive to Macs? THAT is the reason it is a total failure. There are so few people using them, relatively speaking, that there is not a potential to reach hundreds of millions of users you could target if this went to PC. It's good technology, but it is essentially proprietary.
No it's not. Thunderbolt is open to anyone willing to implement it :

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/...developer.html

It's just that other manufacturers don't see the value in Thunderbolt :

http://www.techradar.com/news/comput...derbolt-956708

Of course, HP did come around to release a Thunderbolt enabled laptop this summer, the Spectre XT Touchsmart, an Ultrabook :

http://www.slashgear.com/hp-spectrex...reen-29244775/

Pretty nice machine too.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by VenusianSky View Post
Seriously, I think this sort of thing is pretty neat. Maybe not practical for what is available now, but it opens the door for future designs where a mobile device just needs a Thunderbolt port to get Ethernet, external video and USB ports while at the desk.
We've had these things for decades, they've been called many names : port replicators, docking stations...

At 249$, I really don't see much value in it, it saves me from plugging in 2 extra cables (sound/USB) when I set my laptop on my desk. That's not 250$ of value.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 06:58 AM   #145
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It's just that other manufacturers don't see the value in Thunderbolt :
That is not correct. PC motherboards with TB have started to come out since June this year. The PC manufacturers see plenty of value in it and the products are starting to appear now. There were issues with getting TB to work on Windows just like Intel wanted (mainly around hot plugging and disconnecting) and obviously we know that Apple had a year exclusive on the tech since they helped Intel to develop it. That exclusivity ended somewhere in May/June this year so I am not sure what people are expecting to have happened in a couple of months, but to say that PC manufacturers are not interested in it is just plain silly, crazy talk.

http://uk.gigabyte.com/press-center/....aspx?nid=1140
http://www.techpowerup.com/175893/Gi...-Displays.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...gd80,3205.html

http://www.pcper.com/news/Motherboar...crete-Graphics

http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Int...8Z77V_PREMIUM/

When MSI, Gigabyte and Asus have motherboards with Thunderbolt, then I would say that there is, in fact, quite a lot of interest. Never mind Promise, Seagate, Western Digital, LaCie, Elgato and others.

Article from June (Anandtech.com)

Quote:
Despite what it's done for me, Thunderbolt has to be one of the most strangely handled interface specs of recent history. Intel engineered the spec, but Apple helped with a lot of the connector and cable design and as a result received a year long exclusive on Thunderbolt. Since its introduction, Thunderbolt has received a reasonable amount of support on the Mac platform. Apple even builds a display designed exclusively for use with Thunderbolt equipped Macs. Companies like Promise, Seagate, Western Digital, LaCie and Elgato are all shipping Mac compatible Thunderbolt devices as well.

With the exclusivity agreement over, Intel's partners in the Windows PC space are allowed to ship Thunderbolt enabled motherboards and systems. Making things even more bizarre is the fact that all Thunderbolt devices have to go through Intel's certification program if they are to be approved for use under Windows. Technically only Promise's Pegasus is certified (or about to be certified) for use under Windows, despite the fact that all of these Thunderbolt devices have been available for use under Windows via Boot Camp on Macs.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 07:06 AM   #146
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That is not correct. PC motherboards with TB have started to come out since June this year.
I consider the enthusiast motherboard market to be a niche within a niche, sorry.

Show me products. HP did claim Thunderbolt was a bad value for consumers last year and finally released a consumer ultrabook with it this summer. That is correct, don't spin it otherwise.

And frankly, Thunderbolt really is a poor value, even this DS1 shows it. 249$ to save the trouble of plugging in 2 cables is not good value.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 07:12 AM   #147
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I should have said "currently". Wikipedia mentions that TB can be daisy chained or in a hub, but does not provide any details on how that works. Based on my understanding of the current TB implementation, splitting the TB signal is not how the protocol works at all. Splitting the TB signal into other protocols (like this dock is doing) is another matter.
If you can create a 'hub' you can split the TB signal. I suspect it's done by splitting the PCI-e 'lanes' contained within the TB signal, and simply re-integrating them inside the hub device.

Remember, Thunderbolt is simply an external PCI-e bus and DisplayPort connection. Anything that can be done with PCI-e can be done with Thunderbolt.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 07:13 AM   #148
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I consider the enthusiast motherboard market to be a niche within a niche, sorry.

Show me products. HP did claim Thunderbolt was a bad value for consumers last year and finally released a consumer ultrabook with it this summer. That is correct, don't spin it otherwise.
When HP (or other manufacturers) produces laptop computers people will want to dock onto a large screen, we'll see some more action.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 07:22 AM   #149
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If you add the cost of one of these docks or the Belkin dock to a nice 27" IPS monitor like Dell U2711 ($700+), you are into $1000+ territory.

You can get a refurbed ATD from Apple for $829 with warranty and is a candidate for Apple Care (less than $75 at B&H).

Unless someone already has a nice new 27" killer monitor, it is hard for me to see the business case for adding one of these docks.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 07:27 AM   #150
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When HP (or other manufacturers) produces laptop computers people will want to dock onto a large screen, we'll see some more action.
You mean like my EliteBook which is presently docked to 2 21" FullHD monitors ?

People have been docking laptops to large screens for more than a decade now.
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