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Old Dec 13, 2012, 12:45 PM   #76
LagunaSol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsalter View Post
I can use google services but not be locked into android, I cant use Apple services without being locked into Apple hardware
But you're locked into Google.

Google doesn't care if you're on Android or iOS, so long as you are locked into Google.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 12:49 PM   #77
tbrinkma
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Originally Posted by EmpireITtech View Post
Hoping Microsoft fails is a little naive, for all that they do wrong, they're still the most used OS out there by far. I used to be a huge Apple/Mac fanboy, but then I got a "real" job doing IT work for many large companies, they ALL (except for the print shops or graphics arts dept) use WinXP or Win7.
I think Win7 is a really really solid OS. Is it as flawless as OSX, no, but it's mainstream and widely accessable (IE you don;t have to own Mac hardware to use it).
Btw, I've built 2 Hackintosh's and got the best of both worlds =]
I'm a Mac user *because* I've worked in IT for the past 16 years. (I went with Linux for a while because I couldn't justify having two different computers at the time, and Macs weren't Intel systems yet.) The biggest thing that got me to switch was being sick of the inconsistencies and instability of Windows in my day to day work. Win 7 seems to have solved most of that, but I still prefer OS X when I can use it, so I do.

I spent most of the first month I had my first MacBook Pro discovering all the little details where Apple did things right with the hardware, and wondering why no Windows PC vendor seemed to have thought of any of them.


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Originally Posted by EmpireITtech View Post
I somewhat agree with you, but on things like movies and music is where I think people refer to Apple as "locked in".
I use a SIII now (my iPhone4 cracked and iPhone5 wasn't out yet) and I can buy or get music or movies from anyway, and I mostly still use iTunes lol, and put them on my phone.

Don't get me wrong, I love iPhones but I also love the Galaxy S3 *gasp i know*
I always tell people: If you want something that just works, get an iPhone. If you like customizing or a bigger screen, get an Android.
Nothing wrong with a decent Android phone these days. It's not *my* preference, but the hate and bile (from fanboys on both sides) is pretty absurd, frankly.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 12:50 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Kludge420 View Post
If Google (and Samsung and Microsoft) want to beat Apple they need to do one simple thing:

Make a better iTunes and make it work seemlessly with Android.

Currently Android phones are a nightmare to sync and have some of the worst UX I've ever seen. I've gone back to an iPhone after a year of misery with an Android phone.
You were syncing it wrong.

Seriously though i would agree. I would never go back to iOS, but I do miss the ease of buying an album or dumping a movie into iTunes, then just dropping my phone/iPod in a dock to get them on the device.

Now, I have to find the song files, and the playlist files and copy them over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitropowered View Post
I thought about switching to an SIII or Nexus, but I got an iP5 instead because of my investment in the Apple Ecosystem. And the longer I stick with Apple, the harder it will become to switch. I've been on an iPhone since the 3G, but the tipping point for me was if Apple didn't change the screen size on the 5.
The first tipping point for me was the iPhone 3G vs the EVO. Android phones and the OS smoke a lot of what Apple offers, except for the ecosystem.

I just hope Apple keeps up the work, and improves on their tacky version of the cloud.

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Originally Posted by bfreecity View Post
70 customers? That seems like...not a lot of people to base an article on. Right?
Yes! The article is largely moot, but it's a nice talking point about what really separates Apple from the rest of the herd.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 12:52 PM   #79
LagunaSol
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Originally Posted by tbrinkma View Post
I spent most of the first month I had my first MacBook Pro discovering all the little details where Apple did things right with the hardware, and wondering why no Windows PC vendor seemed to have thought of any of them.
Because when you're on a silly quest for "market share" by selling $400 computers, you can't afford to.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 12:54 PM   #80
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The whole "locked in" ecosystem is the way it's always been. And it used to be worse, when you couldn't even open up files from different OSs. But you have always had to buy a version of the software specifically ported to your OS, making switching difficult. Although I guess now, with Adobe's subscription based service, that might be changing. So if anything, things are maybe less "locked in" now.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:01 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Skunk View Post
Seriously though i would agree. I would never go back to iOS, but I do miss the ease of buying an album or dumping a movie into iTunes, then just dropping my phone/iPod in a dock to get them on the device.

Now, I have to find the song files, and the playlist files and copy them over.
just as easy on Android

Mine just syncs any new content over once per day, no manually doing anything, obviously not with DRM's content though
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:01 PM   #82
EmpireITtech
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Originally Posted by Carouser View Post
You can get Apple stuff everywhere too. It's like the 'closed ecosystem' fallacy all over again, bravo.
I think even you can agree that MS products are hardly ever bought at a MS store, whereas Apple stores draw many many customers....which is what he was saying.
And as much as I hate to admit it, the Apple "ecosystem" is more closed than others.....and I really like Apple products
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:04 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by tmroper View Post
The whole "locked in" ecosystem is the way it's always been. And it used to be worse, when you couldn't even open up files from different OSs. But you have always had to buy a version of the software specifically ported to your OS, making switching difficult. Although I guess now, with Adobe's subscription based service, that might be changing. So if anything, things are maybe less "locked in" now.
I agree with this. The bottom line is you are only as locked in as you want to be with any system.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:06 PM   #84
Haifisch
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Originally Posted by Carouser View Post
What is wrong with a product which is easy to use? If people think "cutting edge" and "a total pain to use" are the same thing, well, that explains why people describe Android as cutting edge. What kind of nitwit says "wow this phone would be hard for my grandmother to use, finally some innovation!'?
Exactly. Some power users think that "easy to use" means it's watered down for mass consumption. They're too good for that. It's the same snotty attitude that allows them to turn their noses up at iMacs, and for some, Apple at a company. To them, a REAL computer must be tweaked, modified, patched, hacked, customized. No thanks. I have better things to do with my time.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:06 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by tbrinkma View Post
I'm a Mac user *because* I've worked in IT for the past 16 years. (I went with Linux for a while because I couldn't justify having two different computers at the time, and Macs weren't Intel systems yet.) The biggest thing that got me to switch was being sick of the inconsistencies and instability of Windows in my day to day work. Win 7 seems to have solved most of that, but I still prefer OS X when I can use it, so I do.

I spent most of the first month I had my first MacBook Pro discovering all the little details where Apple did things right with the hardware, and wondering why no Windows PC vendor seemed to have thought of any of them.

Nothing wrong with a decent Android phone these days. It's not *my* preference, but the hate and bile (from fanboys on both sides) is pretty absurd, frankly.
Oh I know and hear ya mate, not saying Macs aren't used in business situations. Just saying that many many jobs require you to use Windows. I do SAP consulting work from the US government, they literally just switched to Win7 like 2 weeks ago from XP. Macs are not even allowed on the base that I work at lol.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:07 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by LagunaSol View Post
But you're locked into Google.

Google doesn't care if you're on Android or iOS, so long as you are locked into Google.
How is it that Google locks you in?
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:11 PM   #87
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It most certainly is a tax, not in the literal sense but a mandatory premium you pay now that you are in the ecosystem because it is very tough to leave.
So it is with any infrastructure.

Nobody whines about a "Microsoft tax", even though M$ survives in large part because leaving that ecosystem is hard - just that the M$ ecosystem is now so large that the fact that it is an ecosystem is overlooked. Linux isn't easy to transition from either. Sony tried to build a hard-to-leave ecosystem around MemoryStick and ATRAC, but that died out (at least here in the USA) and I'm paying a price for that forced exit.

The fact that changing from one localized status quo to another is hard and pricy in no way makes the cost a "tax".
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:29 PM   #88
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yeah bc those android apps work real well on iphones and windows 8

just like how uncharted and god of war work awesome on my 360, Halo works great on my ps3 and how mario galaxy works on everything including the PC....

/sigh
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:44 PM   #89
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I guess banking on the inability of people to understand simple technology pays off.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 02:29 PM   #90
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Wherever possible every company will try to make sure that their stuff work just that little bit smoother when used with more of their stuff. Plus, it's easier to achieve when you've made all of it than when you have to factor in what other people have made or will make.

I had the iPhone 3G and now have the 4S but I'm still on Windows 7. I occasionally have a minor issue with the phone but regularly find myself almost screaming at the laptop. Macbook next year...
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 02:42 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by tdhurst View Post
Every elderly person I've met thinks Windows is far more confusing looking than OS X.
I second that, at least up until vista and leopard. But this guy specifically compared the iphone having less buttons (i.e. one) than a windows pc, not os x to windows. OS X has pretty much the same "buttons" as windows. And he's supposed to be studying to be a lawyer... Even for a lawyer this is just a tad too much bs to handle.

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Originally Posted by Ubele View Post
In all fairness, I doubt that the guy was comparing the iPhone to a Windows PC, because I can't imagine a 27-year-old law student being that clueless. My guess is that the reporter talked with him briefly about the iPhone vs. competitors' phones, and then about Macs vs. Windows PCs, and then selected one sentence from each part of the conversation. Reporters quote people out of context all the time.
That could be the case. Although I 've seen 50 year old lawyers coming up with much worse. But like you said reporters can do wonders with other people's words.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 03:18 PM   #92
jegbook
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You don't have to be locked in...

Which parts of the Apple ecosystem locks one in?

I have never purchased any video content (and never would. I'm okay with subscription services like Neflix and Hulu, but have no interest in purchasing video one off).
I have purchased very little music from iTunes. Maybe half a dozen albums? Hopefully they are DRM free, but not sure. 99% of my music is imported from CDs imported as MP3s and so portable to any other platform.

Other than that, what locks one in?

All e-mail, calendar, and contact data is exportable and portable to any other system.

The only thing that "locks" me into continuing to use Apple products is the continued convenience. I appreciate the ability to easily sync music and pictures between my phone and my computer and the quick sync of PIM data between phone/cloud/computer.
But I could easily port back to google services or use Exchange based services and I'm sure I could figure out syncing music and pictures with an Android device. But I like the way the Apple stuff works.

It's true, I've intentionally avoided iTunes content to remain portable, even though I don't have any intention of moving away from Apple. But I definitely don't like the idea of not having that option. But, I would argue, you only get locked in if you let yourself. It's not difficult to avoid and remain portable.

YMMV.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 03:24 PM   #93
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Well it certainly isn't price and specs, so what else could it be?
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 03:52 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Steviejobz View Post
It most certainly is a tax, not in the literal sense but a mandatory premium you pay now that you are in the ecosystem because it is very tough to leave. And it is due to Apple not making it super easy for its products to work with others. Like why cant I delete Apple's Map app? This smells like MSFT / IE back in the day and it will all come to roost soon. We are starting to see signs of it.
Wrong!

No one has to buy into Apple's ecosystem and get stuck in it. There are many, many other options available... Google and Amazon both have content apps for iOS.

The only thing you're locked into are the apps, but that applies to EVERY platform. If I buy an Android app, can I use it on my new iPhone? No.

Why should Apple make their products easy to work with others? Where else in the industry does this happen?

Can I play XBox games on my PS3?
Can I use Ford parts in my GM?
Can I run Android apps on my Nokia?
Can I use Schick razors on my Gillette razor?
Does Samesung make TouchWiz available to HTC users?

Apple sells hardware products. They provide services and content to their customers, not to the rest of the world. What kind of business sense would it make to remove the thing that you're using to set your products apart from the rest of the industry?
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 03:53 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by jegbook View Post
Which parts of the Apple ecosystem locks one in?

I have never purchased any video content (and never would. I'm okay with subscription services like Neflix and Hulu, but have no interest in purchasing video one off).
I have purchased very little music from iTunes. Maybe half a dozen albums? Hopefully they are DRM free, but not sure. 99% of my music is imported from CDs imported as MP3s and so portable to any other platform.

Other than that, what locks one in?

All e-mail, calendar, and contact data is exportable and portable to any other system.

The only thing that "locks" me into continuing to use Apple products is the continued convenience. I appreciate the ability to easily sync music and pictures between my phone and my computer and the quick sync of PIM data between phone/cloud/computer.
But I could easily port back to google services or use Exchange based services and I'm sure I could figure out syncing music and pictures with an Android device. But I like the way the Apple stuff works.

It's true, I've intentionally avoided iTunes content to remain portable, even though I don't have any intention of moving away from Apple. But I definitely don't like the idea of not having that option. But, I would argue, you only get locked in if you let yourself. It's not difficult to avoid and remain portable.

YMMV.
Cheers.
This. And as someone pointed out, the Apple ecosystem "lock" is no different than having an Android phone for a year or two and not wanting to switch to Apple because of all you've invested in the Android ecosystem with apps and whatnot. It's not Apple's fault they make such a convenient iCloud sync system, but it also isn't a 2-year cellular contract, with a little effort one can switch their calendars, contacts, etc. between ecosystems without much frustration.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 03:55 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by EmpireITtech View Post
Hoping Microsoft fails is a little naive, for all that they do wrong, they're still the most used OS out there by far. I used to be a huge Apple/Mac fanboy, but then I got a "real" job doing IT work for many large companies, they ALL (except for the print shops or graphics arts dept) use WinXP or Win7.
I think Win7 is a really really solid OS. Is it as flawless as OSX, no, but it's mainstream and widely accessable (IE you don;t have to own Mac hardware to use it).
Naive?? I don't think you're using that word correctly. What's naive in what I said? Again, check the definition, it doesn't match for how you're using it against my post.

What does having a "Real Job" have to do with your post against Apple and OS X? There are plenty of companies that use Macs and the Mac OS for their real jobs such as professional recording studios, you know, like the ones most of the music you listen to comes from? Windows is hardly used in the recording industry and graphics artist use Macs for the sole profession. There are other "Real Jobs" out there besides the ones where a Suit and Tie are required while walking up and down wall street. As far as what I see here, most people are installing Windows on their Mac to play games. Doesn't sound like they are using Windows for much of anything really serious.

Windows 7 is good but being as flawless as OS X? Nah.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 04:04 PM   #97
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With Apple's iOS rapidly losing market share, and with Android increasingly dominating in sales, how long will devs keep supporting the underdog?

It's the Ecosystem, stupid. And for Apple to remain on top of the ecosystem wars, it has two choices: Get back its lost market share, or spend huge amounts on R&D to make lots of exclusive, "must-have" software in-house, like they were forced to do with maps.

Without market share, the third-party devs will pay as much attention to iOs as they do to OSX. IOW, almost none.
Well lets be honest, since ip5 came out, market share is starting to increase again. But that's not the point developers are aiming for.

From what I've read, heard and watched over the past few years is that apple users, inside the apple ecosystem, tend to spend more money on purchased apps as opposed to google users who prefer the use of free apps.

In addition, apple has x amount of users in place with one click purchases and linked credit cards (as per every single bloody keynote numbers update cladding).

If I was a dev, I'd be shooting for iOS, if not for all of the reasons above then for the lack of fragmentation in the hardware it runs on. I could name every iOS product from the last three years. One of those years I had an android and use a pc every day, I cant recall all of the android devices out there released over the last three years.

This screams simplicity, lower total cost of development, higher margins and developer happiness (despite apples stringent approval process)

So overall I reckon devs will stick to iOS for a long time to come (even they are now locked into that ecosystem) and apple should definitely not be developing 'must have' software, especially if their latest releases are anything to go by.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 04:32 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by iGrip View Post
With Apple's iOS rapidly losing market share, and with Android increasingly dominating in sales, how long will devs keep supporting the underdog?

It's the Ecosystem, stupid. And for Apple to remain on top of the ecosystem wars, it has two choices: Get back its lost market share, or spend huge amounts on R&D to make lots of exclusive, "must-have" software in-house, like they were forced to do with maps.

Without market share, the third-party devs will pay as much attention to iOs as they do to OSX. IOW, almost none.
I think you need to get an "iGrip"! . Your post is quite flawed. Firstly iOS isn't "rapidly" losing marketshare. The iPhone 5 and the iPad mini are helping it remain quite stable. Speaking of stability, Android has none. Fragmented OS at it's worse.
Nice one about OS X but you're wrong again. More game developers are turning out the latest major titles on both Windows and the Mac platform. More developers of other softwares, larger and small that used to be Windows-only now run on both platforms. If anything more developers are flocking towards the Mac OS for a number of reasons, here's just a couple of them and marketshare is definitely something developers couldn't care less about:

A smaller used platform such as Mac OS X is something more developers would be attracted to because they would have a much higher chance of getting their applications in the hands of users whereas on Windows it's a major crapshoot if a developer gets his product even noticed, let alone purchased. There's more bit torrenting on Windows then there is on Mac which results in less sales for developers. Microsoft can't even sell Office as it is due to torrenting so they are giving it away on select new PC's either with ads or limited versions of Office.

A company that has more smaller products supporting the larger hardware as Apple does with the iDevices supporting the Mac and iCloud would attract more developers as their applications again would have a higher chance to get noticed and purchased.

Marketshare doesn't attract developers. If that was the case that wouldn't be a smart business model for them to follow.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 04:56 PM   #99
Jimmy James
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A tax to access apps and content? Content can be transferred to any platform. Apps cannot be crossed between any platform.

This reasoning is bunk and certainly not Apple specific.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 06:51 PM   #100
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So it is with any infrastructure.

Nobody whines about a "Microsoft tax", even though M$ survives in large part because leaving that ecosystem is hard - just that the M$ ecosystem is now so large that the fact that it is an ecosystem is overlooked. Linux isn't easy to transition from either. Sony tried to build a hard-to-leave ecosystem around MemoryStick and ATRAC, but that died out (at least here in the USA) and I'm paying a price for that forced exit.

The fact that changing from one localized status quo to another is hard and pricy in no way makes the cost a "tax".
You are joking right? People not whining about microsoft compatibility tax? What world are you living in, because surely it's not earth, as you must have noticed the few hundreds of millions of users over the past 15 years constantly whining about overpaying ms... to the extent that the scale turned so much to the other side that ms are now selling an upgrade to their new os for a bit more than apple is selling a few bug fixes to lion and passing it off as a new os on the strength of notes, reminders and... twitter, oh and android style notifications.

And let me remind you also of apple's current clout and size, and how much money they have in the bank, as you might want to reconsider spelling M$ and start spelling $$$apple$$$ instead.
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