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Old Dec 18, 2012, 05:50 PM   #76
SeanR1
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Originally Posted by Phil A. View Post
If an 18 year old had sex with my 14 year old daughter, jail time would be the least of his worries!
I totally agree with this sentiment.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 10:11 PM   #77
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The younger girls are somewhat at fault too. There are countless cases where they want to date older guys and do stuff but when they have a fight they get all dramatic and call rape etc.

A lot of my close friends have younger sisters in highschool and I've heard some ridiculous stories.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 11:01 PM   #78
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I agree with the "icky but not worth labeling him a sex offender for life" camp.

These laws vary from state to state, but I think a way to do it would be to essentially have a special period between Age of Consent (call it X) and X + Y ( you can debate whether Y should be 3 or 7 but for argument's sake lets say 5.)

Between X and X + Y years of age, if you have sex with someone whose age is < X but >= (your age - Y), it's a crime but doesn't confer sex offender status.

So if age of consent is 17 and grace period is 5 years, then an 18 y/o having sex with a 14 y/o goes to jail but isn't a sex offender. A 20 y/o having sex w/ a 15 y/o goes to jail but isn't a sex offender. But a 20 y/o having sex with a 14 y/o is a sex offender, and a 40 y/o having sex with a 15 y/o is definitely a sex offender.

It probably also makes sense to have a shorter period (18 mo or 2 years) for which it isn't a crime - i.e. 15 y/o and 16 y/o are having sex (not a great situation but not criminal). 16 y/o hits their 17th bday and suddenly it's a crime? No, because they're within 2 years of age, it's just bad judgement - and that holds until the younger hits the age of consent, thus dealing with the case where one teen hits the age of consent before the other.

Am I crazy?
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 11:40 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
This article, Laws Gone Wild: As Teen Sweethearts Go to Prison for Sex, Mothers Rebel recently appeared on The Daily Beast/Newsweek. In this case the subject was an 18 year old boy who had sex with his then 14 year old girl friend and ended up spending 5 years in jail...

Should we be imposing some kind of a Victorian draconian punishment directed at teens who give in to their urges? The boy's life has been ruined. What did society achieve by this over reaction, religious driven, BS?
We live in a draconian society that refuses to openly talk about a fundamental nature of humans, TO HAVE SEX.

Except for 0.000001% of society, everyone WILL have sexual relations with someone at some time, so why is there no discussion about a certainty??

Stupid.

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I understand where you are coming from Huntn, but the specific boy in the article made some really bad decisions. He went back to his girlfriend after getting out a jail and while he was on probation. In my opinion it's hard to have sympathy when he knowingly and willfully broke the law that landed him in trouble initially. Would you be sympathetic to someone in this situation if the crime were different say shoplifting or assault?
Romeo and Juliet was "underage".
Around the world girls as young as 10 get married and are expected to have sex.
In some US states IT IS legal for a 13 year old girl to marry.
In Asia, it is very common for girls to be prostitutes.

Why does America close its eyes on the reality and not have open frank discussions, and TEACH OUR YOUNGSTERS about sex and our society?

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sorry but i dont see any reason why an 18 year old MAN should be dating a 14 year old
Oh REALLY?
You would put an arbitrary number ahead of, say, being human?

You truly think someone who is turns 18 is suddenly capable of acting like an adult? He was in high school too.
There is no handbook "You are now an Adult, this is the guide"
The reason the drinking age was raised to 21 was because our society utterly fails to teach our youngsters life lessons and disciple.

Until proper and open education is in place, how can this be "fair"?

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Originally Posted by leekohler View Post
What's missing here is the 14 year old's parents' opinion on this.
True, but then is the parent protective, or selfish?

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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
The law needs to be changed. The sex offender list was meant to protect underage kids from pervs that are way over age. Not to prevent a senior in HS dating a freshman.
Exactly!

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Originally Posted by sviato View Post
The younger girls are somewhat at fault too. There are countless cases where they want to date older guys and do stuff but when they have a fight they get all dramatic and call rape etc.

A lot of my close friends have younger sisters in highschool and I've heard some ridiculous stories.
Agree.
Girls are more then capable of abusing the system too.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 11:50 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post


Ignorant.

You truly think someone who is turns 18 is suddenly capable of acting like an adult? He was in high school too.
There is no handbook "You are now an Adult, this is the guide"
The reason the drinking age was raised to 21 was because our society utterly fails to teach our youngsters life lessons and disciple.

Until proper and open education is in place, how can this be "fair"?


Yup, I am so ignorant.... A boy at 18 who dates and has sex with a 14 year old has issues. A girl that age looks like a child in most cases. A boy at 18 does not.

I can understand a year apart at that age, but 4? Give me a break. That is a sign of wanting a girl he has complete control over and wanting a girl that is very young. Promising signs for sure.

We have (assuming you are 18+) have been through that age and I know of no one who had dated a freshman while a senior in hs. Do you?

Sure, other countries have different laws as a result of different customs and cultures. They grew up in this, the US's, culture however
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 11:53 PM   #81
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Indeed. It's the Law. He broke the law and was punished according the penalties prescribed by the law. What's the problem? The age of the kid breaking the law? So just because he's a teenager the law shouldn't apply? Gimme a break. Problems start when people start thinking they're above the law. What everyone else needs must abide, needs not apply to them.
Is the LAW taught in school?
No.
Do they teach what happens if you litter?
No.
Do they tell you how to learn about laws?
No.
What about "Do not trespass"?
No. (those signs often do not say you will be arrested)

One way or other we learned about the laws, I bet by TV cop shows, but not in school.

Granted ignorance of the law is no excuse, but it is patently unfair not to teach the law, the rules, and start arresting people for violations.
Imagine playing Monopoly or checkers without rules, but then someone start dictating you cant do it.

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Yup, I am so ignorant. A boy at 18 who dates and has sex with a 14 year old has issues. A girl that age looks like a child in most cases. A boy at 18 does not.

I can understand a year apart at that age, but 4? Give me a break. That is a sign of wanting a girl he has control over and wanting a girl that is very young. We have (assuming you are 18+) have been through that age and I know of no one who had dated a freshman while a senior in hs.

Sure, other countries have different laws as a result of different customs and cultures. They grew up in this, the US's, culture
Sorry, was a little heated up, I quickly changed the opening to mean exactly what I was thinking, but you got it first.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 11:54 PM   #82
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Sorry, was a little heated up, I quickly changed the opening to mean exactly what I was thinking, but you got it first.
no worries
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 11:58 PM   #83
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Yup, I am so ignorant.... A boy at 18 who dates and has sex with a 14 year old has issues. A girl that age looks like a child in most cases. A boy at 18 does not.

I can understand a year apart at that age, but 4? Give me a break. That is a sign of wanting a girl he has complete control over and wanting a girl that is very young. Promising signs for sure.

We have (assuming you are 18+) have been through that age and I know of no one who had dated a freshman while a senior in hs. Do you?

Sure, other countries have different laws as a result of different customs and cultures. They grew up in this, the US's, culture however
At the school dance, I was senior, danced with a cute girl who was some 4 inches taller then me, but was 5 years younger then me (13 vs 18). Different classes, did not see again.

Agree there is a power factor involved, but that is something that can be resolved by schooling and parents then jail.

(again, Sorry about first post, was a little heated up, I quickly changed the opening to mean exactly what I was thinking, but you got it first. )
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 01:34 AM   #84
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I understand where you are coming from Huntn, but the specific boy in the article made some really bad decisions. He went back to his girlfriend after getting out a jail and while he was on probation. In my opinion it's hard to have sympathy when he knowingly and willfully broke the law that landed him in trouble initially. Would you be sympathetic to someone in this situation if the crime were different say shoplifting or assault?
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Romeo and Juliet was "underage".
Around the world girls as young as 10 get married and are expected to have sex.
In some US states IT IS legal for a 13 year old girl to marry.
In Asia, it is very common for girls to be prostitutes.

Why does America close its eyes on the reality and not have open frank discussions, and TEACH OUR YOUNGSTERS about sex and our society?
Sorry friend, but I don't understand what you are talking about in relation to my comments that you quoted. I was pointing out the specific details of the article relating to the young man being a repeat offender meaning that he knew what he was doing and had been warned about the consequences.

Your comments are about different time periods, different cultures, and your belief that America turns a blind eye to the issue. What do these things have to do with each other? Asian prostitutes, Shakespeare, and some states/countries allowing marriage at a certain young age doesn't have anything to do with what the guy in the original article did. He, as an adult (age 18), pursued a sexual relationship with a minor (age 14) despite it being forbidden by her parents. He then got into an argument with her dad and became physically aggressive kicking in their front door and destroying property. This event is what brought law enforcement into the situation and then after serving a year for his crimes he disregarded the law and started having sex with her again while he was on probation.

I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see the connection you are making. Can I ask you for further clarification so that I can understand the point you are trying to make?
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 08:08 AM   #85
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I agree with the "icky but not worth labeling him a sex offender for life" camp.

These laws vary from state to state, but I think a way to do it would be to essentially have a special period between Age of Consent (call it X) and X + Y ( you can debate whether Y should be 3 or 7 but for argument's sake lets say 5.)

Between X and X + Y years of age, if you have sex with someone whose age is < X but >= (your age - Y), it's a crime but doesn't confer sex offender status.

So if age of consent is 17 and grace period is 5 years, then an 18 y/o having sex with a 14 y/o goes to jail but isn't a sex offender. A 20 y/o having sex w/ a 15 y/o goes to jail but isn't a sex offender. But a 20 y/o having sex with a 14 y/o is a sex offender, and a 40 y/o having sex with a 15 y/o is definitely a sex offender.

It probably also makes sense to have a shorter period (18 mo or 2 years) for which it isn't a crime - i.e. 15 y/o and 16 y/o are having sex (not a great situation but not criminal). 16 y/o hits their 17th bday and suddenly it's a crime? No, because they're within 2 years of age, it's just bad judgement - and that holds until the younger hits the age of consent, thus dealing with the case where one teen hits the age of consent before the other.

Am I crazy?
I like your idea. My objection has to do with sexual predator laws are designed to protect children from sexual predators. For the case I referenced, I picture a predator as an adult who picks a young someone up and has sex with them versus a couple who are boy and girl friend in school. I do think the age 14 is too young to be going with an 18 year old, but will qualify it by saying my impression is that some 14 year olds, are pretty old for their age. The boy did violate the judges order, he should have gone to jail, but not prison, and definitely not for 5 years. And based on this example, he should not be treated as a sexual predator, with all the restrictions for the rest of his life.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 08:29 AM   #86
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You really think a teenager who simply has sex with his girlfriend should be put on a lifelong sex-offender registry, the same registry as pedophiles and child rapists, and have to report his whereabouts for the rest of his life? Wow.
One of those teenagers is an adult, the other is a child. It's as simple as that. Really can't believe this has even been a discussion.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 08:32 AM   #87
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One of those teenagers is an adult, the other is a child. It's as simple as that. Really can't believe this has even been a discussion.
So if a guy who was 17 was dating a 15 year old, who then turns 18 all of a sudden becomes a pedophile and deserves to be put on the sex offenders list with other pedo's and other rapists just because all of a sudden the law sees him as an adult?
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 08:56 AM   #88
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So if a guy who was 17 was dating a 15 year old, who then turns 18 all of a sudden becomes a pedophile and deserves to be put on the sex offenders list with other pedo's and other rapists just because all of a sudden the law sees him as an adult?
You seem hell-bent on refusing to acknowledge that the 17-year-old dating the 15-year-old is also breaking the law. It's not like one of your scenarios is okay and the other one isn't; in Michigan, it's against the law to have sex with a 15-year-old regardless of your age.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 08:58 AM   #89
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You seem hell-bent on refusing to acknowledge that the 17-year-old dating the 15-year-old is also breaking the law. It's not like one of your scenarios is okay and the other one isn't; in Michigan, it's against the law to have sex with a 15-year-old regardless of your age.
Was I talking about Michigan laws in that scenario?

I am also hell bent in wanting change to the law because this situation is ridiculous.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 08:59 AM   #90
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You seem hell-bent on refusing to acknowledge that the 17-year-old dating the 15-year-old is also breaking the law. It's not like one of your scenarios is okay and the other one isn't; in Michigan, it's against the law to have sex with a 15-year-old regardless of your age.
What happens if a 15 year old has sex with a 14 year old? Who is the victim? Both of them? These laws, as necessary as they are, seem to be missing common sense. Two teenagers can date and have sex for years but then one of them turns that magical age and boom! It's A crime.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 09:17 AM   #91
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What happens if a 15 year old has sex with a 14 year old? Who is the victim? Both of them? These laws, as necessary as they are, seem to be missing common sense. Two teenagers can date and have sex for years but then one of them turns that magical age and boom! It's A crime.
I say we go back to most of the US's common law roots: adult and consent at 12.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 09:57 AM   #92
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Sorry friend, but I don't understand what you are talking about in relation to my comments that you quoted. I was pointing out the specific details of the article relating to the young man being a repeat offender meaning that he knew what he was doing and had been warned about the consequences.
Ok, let me clarify:

History of humanity proves that biology, not laws, dictate sexual relations.
Legislating, even under threat of death, does not prevent it.
In the middle east children are being stoned to death because they had sexual relations, and I suspect is known by the youngsters.

In America there is little effort to prepare children to become adults. While legally "adults", mentally they are just still "children". The term children is often applied to 20 year olds!

Historically speaking, 70 years ago in America it was the opposite. 16 year olds where expected to hunt, work, even have babies, do it all with discipline and responsibility. That is gone today.

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One of those teenagers is an adult, the other is a child. It's as simple as that. Really can't believe this has even been a discussion.
And you are also saying it is perfectly OK for a 40 year old man to have sexual relations with an 18 year old high school girl who turned 18 the first week of senior year.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 10:01 AM   #93
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Americans getting in a tizzy about two people having SEX, who would have thought it.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 10:43 AM   #94
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Is the LAW taught in school?
No.
Do they teach what happens if you litter?
No.
Do they tell you how to learn about laws?
No.
What about "Do not trespass"?
No. (those signs often do not say you will be arrested)

One way or other we learned about the laws, I bet by TV cop shows, but not in school.
And yet millions of other teens managed to obey the law despite not knowing the law. Fancy that. There's a bit of common sense involved as well.

But some are just too mule headed to change. It wasn't the kid's first offense. The first time he got a year in prison and 3 years probation. I can guarantee you he KNEW the law before his second offense. Heck, they probably told him exactly what would happen if he didn't reform; "scare 'em straight" sort of thinking. A repeat offender getting punished for the same crime. My heart bleeds for the kid.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 10:55 AM   #95
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So if a guy who was 17 was dating a 15 year old, who then turns 18 all of a sudden becomes a pedophile and deserves to be put on the sex offenders list with other pedo's and other rapists just because all of a sudden the law sees him as an adult?
They would already be one.

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And you are also saying it is perfectly OK for a 40 year old man to have sexual relations with an 18 year old high school girl who turned 18 the first week of senior year.
I only said what I typed. You can take it as you please. Typically you turn 18 when you're graduating not the first week of school or you'd probably be in a higher grade or graduated in this case unless you got left back. Anyway, perfectly legal and perfectly ok are not the same. I think your scenario would be sick as I think smoking would be. As an adult, legally you can make your own decisions.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:11 AM   #96
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They would already be one.
So every minor whose had sex is a rapist...... You have a great outlook on people..... What if they are both 15 year olds? Are they raping each other?
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:37 AM   #97
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So every minor whose had sex is a rapist...... You have a great outlook on people..... What if they are both 15 year olds? Are they raping each other?
Oddly enough, using Florida as an example, the age of consent is 16 so it's legal for them to have sex but if they send each other nude pics then it's "child pornography" and they can spend a LOT of time in prison. The US is completely ********d.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:38 AM   #98
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Oddly enough, using Florida as an example, the age of consent is 16 so it's legal for them to have sex but if they send each other nude pics then it's "child pornography" and they can spend a LOT of time in prison. The US is completely ********d.
And if I remember correctly, also put on the sex offenders list.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:53 AM   #99
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Ok, let me clarify:

History of humanity proves that biology, not laws, dictate sexual relations.
Legislating, even under threat of death, does not prevent it.
In the middle east children are being stoned to death because they had sexual relations, and I suspect is known by the youngsters.

In America there is little effort to prepare children to become adults. While legally "adults", mentally they are just still "children". The term children is often applied to 20 year olds!

Historically speaking, 70 years ago in America it was the opposite. 16 year olds where expected to hunt, work, even have babies, do it all with discipline and responsibility. That is gone today.
I hear what you are saying, but I don't agree with the broad brush you are using. I think there are many parents out there who do educate their children about sex and responsibility in general.

Morality and ethics are definitely something our culture is divided on, but there is a wealth of opportunities out there for children to engage in discussions and to reflect on the topic. After school programs, advocacy groups, online resources, etc. etc.. are all available. Children today have more information at their fingertips than any other generation before. Of course, the hope is that parents are actively engaging their children in thinking about these issues and exposing them to chances where adult decison making and responsiblity can be practiced. However, if that doesn't occur there are other mentors and other chances for children to start learning adult decision making and consequential thinking. The situation is not hopeless.

On the other hand, not every child is a victim of bad parenting. A parent can do everything in their power to properly teach their child about adult responsibility, morality, sexuality, and the law and that individual child can still make poor choices. It is for this reason that these kinds of laws exist. Often impressionable young minds and hearts can be swayed more by peer pressure, curiosity, status, emotions, ego, or simple selfishness. Part of being a responsible parent is doing everything you can to protect your child from themselves while they are in those impressionable years.

Parents of teenage daughters need to be aware that there are older teenage boys who can be predators. Does this mean they are pedophiles, no, but they are typical hormone driven males who will gladly use every advantage they can to sway your daughter to give in to sex. The law can help parents who might find themselves in a situation like this. If your teenage daughter is caught up in the emotion and status of an older boy taking an interest in her and all other means of supervision and parenting have failed then the law may be your last resort. And yes, teenage boys can be put in the same situation of being taken advantage of, but by far this issue statistically affects females more.

I understand many will have a differnt opinion on this matter as our culture is more than happy to tell us that we can do whatever we want with our own bodies. Hey, as long as it feels good and there's no harm to anyone then go for it. Well, as a parent, I will tell you that it's my responsibility to do everything within my power to protect my children from immature decision making that could potentially have lasting negative consequences. Legally, this responsibility ends at age 18 where from that point forward they will be viewed as an adult and held responsible for their own choices. At that point my ability to enforce certain things becomes limited as my child is "of legal age". Should a parent rely on the law to "teach their child" no, but if all else has failed then somethimes the law becomes a viable last resort alternative.

Last, for those that are defending "teenage lovers", I think we all need to recognize that states and district attorneys are not trying to prosecute and lock up every teen that has sex. A fair measure of discretion is used in deciding what cases to prosecute. I'm sure there are extremes on both sides, but almost every case of statutory that I have heard of usually has complex circumstances involved where there was either an unwilling participant or an unwilling parent despite the fact that the teen was a willing participant.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 12:11 PM   #100
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^^^

Then get the person for harassing, stalking, etc. But, don't label him a sex offender, rapist, etc.
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