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Old Dec 19, 2012, 12:14 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
And if I remember correctly, also put on the sex offenders list.
in co, if you urinate in public, you are a sex offender
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 01:07 PM   #102
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So every minor whose had sex is a rapist...... You have a great outlook on people..... What if they are both 15 year olds? Are they raping each other?
I have my opinion, you have yours. Who would've thought? The great thing is law goes above opinion.

The people in this situation were 18 and 14. In MY opinion and the law that's wrong and I'm glad he went to jail. 18 and 15 is wrong in MY opinion and the law too. It's adult vs child as well as consent age. Google it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of..._North_America

At the end of the day do what you want, but as somebody else said. Let it involve the wrong persons kid and jail will be the least of their problems.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 01:12 PM   #103
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I have my opinion, you have yours. Who would've thought? The great thing is law goes above opinion.

The people in this situation were 18 and 14. In MY opinion and the law that's wrong and I'm glad he went to jail. 18 and 15 is wrong in MY opinion and the law too. It's adult vs child as well as consent age. Google it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of..._North_America

At the end of the day do what you want, but as somebody else said. Let it involve the wrong persons kid and jail will be the least of their problems.
We all think it is wrong. I don't think anyone here is saying an 18 year old dating a 14 year old is appropriate. Where we differ is calling the 18 year old a rapist, sending him to jail( though he didn't in this case. Went to jail for home invasion and violating probation), and putting him on the sex offenders list over it.

And apparently you call minors a rapist for having sex as well. Just the law doesn't recognize it as such until they turn 18......
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 01:18 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by dukebound85 View Post
in co, if you urinate in public, you are a sex offender
'Cause that's a smart law.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 01:18 PM   #105
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in co, if you urinate in public, you are a sex offender
That's just about the stupidest thing ever. And goes to show how the law is not always the right thing.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 01:43 PM   #106
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Where we differ is calling the 18 year old a rapist, sending him to jail( though he didn't in this case. Went to jail for home invasion and violating probation), and putting him on the sex offenders list over it.
With all due respect, the fact that you keep saying things about the story that are factually wrong is not helping your argument.

The young man in the story was originally arrested for home invasion, but he was charged and sent to jail for having sex with his underage girlfriend.

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One morning, Thornsberry drove to Lester’s house when he thought her father would be at work. His plan, he says: to pick up some belongings and drive his girlfriend to school. But her father saw Thornsberry outside the home and the two started arguing. Thornsberry kicked open the front door and hurled a sugar bowl at the TV. The father called the police. Thornsberry was arrested for home invasion.

When questioned by detectives, Thornsberry, then 18, admitted to sleeping with his 14-year-old girlfriend. On the advice of his attorney, he pleaded guilty to criminal sexual misconduct and was sentenced to a year in jail followed by three years’ probation, during which time he could not be around minors, including his girlfriend. He would also go on the sex-offender registry, which would list his home address and other personal information, for 25 years.
I understand your argument, but central to it seems to be the fact that you want to interpret the word "rape" narrowly as just cases of forced sex with an unwilling partner or as you put it, "pervs that are way over age". However, the law does not share this narrow definition.

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Statutory Rape: Sexual intercourse by an adult with a person below a statutorily designated age.

The criminal offense of statutory rape is committed when an adult sexually penetrates a person who, under the law, is incapable of consenting to sex. Minors and physically and mentally incapacitated persons are deemed incapable of consenting to sex under rape statutes in all states. These persons are considered deserving of special protection because they are especially vulnerable due to their youth or condition.

Most legislatures include statutory rape provisions in statutes that punish a number of different types of sexual assault. Statutory rape is different from other types of rape in that force and lack of consent are not necessary for conviction. A defendant may be convicted of statutory rape even if the complainant explicitly consented to the sexual contact and no force was used by the actor. By contrast, other rape generally occurs when a person overcomes another person by force and without the person's consent.
Link

The basis of the law is the concept that those under a certain age don't have the mental and emotional capacity to adequately consider the consequences and responsibility involved in a sexual relationship. Therefore they are "unable" to consent. We have to draw a line somewhere and it has to be a consistent line. If you don't agree with selecting a "statutorily designated age" then what do you propose as a better alternative for protecting those who are "vulnerable due to their youth or condition"?
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 01:53 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
And apparently you call minors a rapist for having sex as well. Just the law doesn't recognize it as such until they turn 18......
Highlighted the key word for you as you obviously didn't get it in my last reply, when I said adult vs child.

18 and 14 = Adult and Minor
18 and 15 = Adult and Minor
15 and 15 = Minor and Minor
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 01:59 PM   #108
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With all due respect, the fact that you keep saying things about the story that are factually wrong is not helping your argument.

The young man in the story was originally arrested for home invasion, but he was charged and sent to jail for having sex with his underage girlfriend.
My bad, don't mean to keep getting things mixed up.



Quote:
I understand your argument, but central to it seems to be the fact that you want to interpret the word "rape" narrowly as just cases of forced sex with an unwilling partner or as you put it, "pervs that are way over age". However, the law does not share this narrow definition.
No I am not saying rape is only forced sex. What I am saying is provisions need to be added that cover a situation like this. Laws shouldn't be so cut and dry. If the age of consent is 16, you think a 16 year old is a rapist for having sex with his 15 year old girlfriend? All I am saying is there needs to be an age gap where the older person is not labeled a rapist, goes to jail over it, and is a sex offender for life because he is over that line and the GF isn't yet.

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Originally Posted by OneMike View Post
Highlighted the key word for you as you obviously didn't get it in my last reply, when I said adult vs child.

18 and 14 = Adult and Minor
18 and 15 = Adult and Minor
15 and 15 = Minor and Minor
And your reply was to a person who was 17 dating a 15 year old who then turned 18 and asking if all of a sudden he became a pedophile and a rapist? Which you stated he would already be one which implied you think he is a pedo and a rapist at 17 despite being a minor....
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 02:27 PM   #109
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I have my opinion, you have yours. Who would've thought? The great thing is law goes above opinion.]
You live in Florida, correct? So, I assume you are also very against any unmarried couples living together, or certainly sleeping together. I mean, it is Florida Law, and the law is absolute.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 02:56 PM   #110
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And your reply was to a person who was 17 dating a 15 year old who then turned 18 and asking if all of a sudden he became a pedophile and a rapist? Which you stated he would already be one which implied you think he is a pedo and a rapist at 17 despite being a minor....
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What if they are both 15 year olds?
You asked that at one point. That's what my last reply addressed.

For the 17 yr old who turns 18 with the 15 yr old. according to law. That's wrong in many states and NY which is where I went to school "Sex with a person under 17 is a misdemeanor if the perpetrator is at least 16 (see infra). (“Sexual misconduct,” NY Penal Law § 130.20.)"

My general feeling on HS dating is same age preferred, one year difference eh, ok. beyond that, nope.

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You live in Florida, correct? So, I assume you are also very against any unmarried couples living together, or certainly sleeping together. I mean, it is Florida Law, and the law is absolute.
Too much assumption, just ask. I live in FL. As I said in my last post I'm from NY. That's neither here nor there though.

Stick to the original topic at hand.

We're talking Adults and Minors, and keep it there. I happen to agree with the law on that. It's also a law in FL supposedly that Doors of all public buildings must open outwards. Just because you agree with one thing has nothing to do with the next.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 03:11 PM   #111
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What I am saying is provisions need to be added that cover a situation like this. Laws shouldn't be so cut and dry. If the age of consent is 16, you think a 16 year old is a rapist for having sex with his 15 year old girlfriend? All I am saying is there needs to be an age gap where the older person is not labeled a rapist, goes to jail over it, and is a sex offender for life because he is over that line and the GF isn't yet.
Thank you for the clarification. What kind of provision do you think is workable? What kind of age gap would you support, two years, three, more? How far down the age range does the gap go? Is it okay for a 10 year old to have sex with a 7 year old?
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 03:38 PM   #112
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Thank you for the clarification. What kind of provision do you think is workable? What kind of age gap would you support, two years, three, more? How far down the age range does the gap go? Is it okay for a 10 year old to have sex with a 7 year old?
I would make it flexible to avoid that sort of trap. 18- 4 years, 17- 3 years, 16-3 years( debating myself on the 16 years one between 2 and 3). Anything below that is already below the age of consent in most states, plus when dealing with middle school kids it becomes tricky as that is when most sexual relations start to happen at around the 7th grade, but wouldn't exactly call them rapists. I think normal discipline from the school and/or parents for kids 15 and under is appropriate.

It's still tricky, but I think the above proposal would be better than what todays is.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 05:54 PM   #113
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I only said what I typed. You can take it as you please. Typically you turn 18 when you're graduating not the first week of school or you'd probably be in a higher grade or graduated in this case unless you got left back. Anyway, perfectly legal and perfectly ok are not the same. I think your scenario would be sick as I think smoking would be. As an adult, legally you can make your own decisions.
You are wrong.
My birthday happens just after the cutoff, so I was 18 practically the entire year of HS.
I know of others who has B-days in September, October, November, again over half the year as adults.

And you perfectly proved my point of 18 year old HS student and 40 year old adult. A High School student 18+ having sex, can openly admit about having sex throughout HS, flaunt it even.
Sure it grosses you out, but hey, its the law and its 'OK".

The law is black and white. Life is not.

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And yet millions of other teens managed to obey the law despite not knowing the law. Fancy that. There's a bit of common sense involved as well.

But some are just too mule headed to change. It wasn't the kid's first offense. The first time he got a year in prison and 3 years probation. I can guarantee you he KNEW the law before his second offense. Heck, they probably told him exactly what would happen if he didn't reform; "scare 'em straight" sort of thinking. A repeat offender getting punished for the same crime. My heart bleeds for the kid.
I broke the law plenty of times as a "child". Quite a bit of mischief, drinking alcohol in public (but I have never used drugs, that I am proud of).
Seen lots of other do same.

Never caught.

Pretty sure those who never broke a law is a minority.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 06:07 PM   #114
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I hear what you are saying, but I don't agree with the broad brush you are using. I think there are many parents out there who do educate their children about sex and responsibility in general.

Morality and ethics are definitely something our culture is divided on, but there is a wealth of opportunities out there for children to engage in discussions and to reflect on the topic. After school programs, advocacy groups, online resources, etc. etc.. are all available. Children today have more information at their fingertips than any other generation before. Of course, the hope is that parents are actively engaging their children in thinking about these issues and exposing them to chances where adult decison making and responsiblity can be practiced.
Excellent response, I agree with all you say except education.

Yes, there are parents who do teach their children well, but we both know it is not even close to 100%. I am probably more pessimistic on this then you.

Also, is what the parents teaching adequate, let alone complete?

IMHO, it is responsibility of both parents and society to give the children understanding and open dialogue of a complex and powerful force sex is.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 06:12 PM   #115
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You are wrong.
My birthday happens just after the cutoff, so I was 18 practically the entire year of HS.
I know of others who has B-days in September, October, November, again over half the year as adults.

And you perfectly proved my point of 18 year old HS student and 40 year old adult. A High School student 18+ having sex, can openly admit about having sex throughout HS, flaunt it even.
Sure it grosses you out, but hey, its the law and its 'OK".

The law is black and white. Life is not.[COLOR="#808080"]
Is your birthday the first week of school? If not, I'm not wrong. You just fail to read.

You say 18 year old HS student, like the fact they are a student at 18 it changes the fact they are an adult. 18 is an ADULT whether graduated or not. No point to be proven.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 06:13 PM   #116
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'Cause that's a smart law.
Depends on the urinating. If you're whipping it out at the local public pool to take a nice long pee in the water during kids-swim hour, then yeah.

But what if you find yourself in one of those situations where you drank too much beverage at the restaurant, and aren't anywhere near a public restroom? We've all been there at some point or another, and we all know that when it's nature calls, you have no other choice but to heed the calling.

So you pull your car over, find a nice tall bush next to a thick patch of woods, drop trou, and let loose.

...then a troop of girl scouts comes out from behind a copse of trees. Unfortunately for you, they all have camera phones.

Next thing you know...

*knock* *knock* *knock* "Hello there, neighbor! My name is Teh Don Ditty, and I'm a registered sex crime offender. Yeah, go over there and tell your wife. Everyone in town has to know".

And when you go to complain about your newfound status as a social pariah, some idiot on some random forum goes "WELL TAHTS TEH LAW OLOL".
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 06:36 PM   #117
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I feel an 18 year old is old enough to know that dating a 14 year old is wrong. I didn't date 14 year olds when I was 18 because it was wrong. With that said, I think a legal system that looks at an 18 year old and a 14 year old having sex as the same as a 50 year old and a 14 year old is wrong as well, or that expecting an 18 year old to have the maturity of a 50 year old is also wrong.

Sounds like the guy is excellent at making bad decisions. At the same time, very few people are grown adults at 18 maturity-wise. Some are, but some is not most, and surely not all. 18 is a prime age of doing stupid things for reasons you really can't comprehend and dating a 14 year old is a pretty stupid thing.

I've watched this thread without saying much as I had a friend this happened to. He knew ahead of time there would be consequences but he chose to get jiggy anyway. Not a bad guy but a bad decision, and he paid for it. After jail he was never the same. I refuse to believe that all of those wrongs somehow made a right, and that justice of any type was served. If our justice system exists to serve justice, than I have to question if there is a better way.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 09:48 PM   #118
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So if a guy who was 17 was dating a 15 year old, who then turns 18 all of a sudden becomes a pedophile and deserves to be put on the sex offenders list with other pedo's and other rapists just because all of a sudden the law sees him as an adult?
This is along the lines of my issue. My definition of sexual predator does not match the laws. If it was up to me, I would modify definituions and punishment.

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Originally Posted by Tomorrow View Post
You seem hell-bent on refusing to acknowledge that the 17-year-old dating the 15-year-old is also breaking the law. It's not like one of your scenarios is okay and the other one isn't; in Michigan, it's against the law to have sex with a 15-year-old regardless of your age.
So if you are a 15 year old boy with a 15 year old girl, it is the boy who is hammered? If so, the law is sexist.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 05:51 AM   #119
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This is not about love, or hormones, but about theft. One cannot argue that an 18-year-old man is not responsible for his actions due to hormones and love while expecting a 14-year-old girl to be able to give informed consent.

The Savile case in the UK shows what happens when children and teenagers are not protected against older people who abuse their position and power.

If the young man who is the focus of this thread truly loved the 14-year-old girl, he would have waited. I dated a 16-year-old when I was 18 and that's what I did. I have no regrets.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 08:22 AM   #120
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The basis of the law is the concept that those under a certain age don't have the mental and emotional capacity to adequately consider the consequences and responsibility involved in a sexual relationship. Therefore they are "unable" to consent. We have to draw a line somewhere and it has to be a consistent line. If you don't agree with selecting a "statutorily designated age" then what do you propose as a better alternative for protecting those who are "vulnerable due to their youth or condition"?
While I agree younger people have reduced mental abilities, it is wrong to think children completely lack any ability.

Children are told constantly if they do not study, they will fail the test. So they study.
Children are told constantly it takes time to finish a project, so they start early.
Children are told constantly if they kill something, it is dead forever.
and I am pretty sure children will know if they fall off a tall building they will be killed.
Oh, and they do head the warming about real perverts, have fear instilled.

To think children cannot be taught the consequence of sex is a fallacy.
It is simply a matter to saying this often enough and consistently, just like everything else.

Besides, when was the current age cutoff made, by whom, referring to what scientific study?

As to when on cutoff age, it seems by law 13 years old is the point where they can watch violent movies (PG-13) and games, and gain "rights" on the internet. 13 is also the age many children enter high school. It seems like the decision has already be made.

I am just making observations and questioning what we have now.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 08:33 AM   #121
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Is your birthday the first week of school? If not, I'm not wrong. You just fail to read.

You say 18 year old HS student, like the fact they are a student at 18 it changes the fact they are an adult. 18 is an ADULT whether graduated or not. No point to be proven.
Yes, you are 100% wrong.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 08:46 AM   #122
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I feel an 18 year old is old enough to know that dating a 14 year old is wrong.
Criminalize dating?
You are talking about simply hanging out?
I can see not advisable, discouraged, but "wrong"?

I guess you mean intimate, at which point you mean sex. Kissing is considered sexual activity in many definitions of sexual activity.
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Last edited by PracticalMac; Dec 20, 2012 at 09:30 AM. Reason: changed last part of last sentence.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 09:28 AM   #123
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I agree with the "icky but not worth labeling him a sex offender for life" camp.

These laws vary from state to state, but I think a way to do it would be to essentially have a special period between Age of Consent (call it X) and X + Y ( you can debate whether Y should be 3 or 7 but for argument's sake lets say 5.)

Between X and X + Y years of age, if you have sex with someone whose age is < X but >= (your age - Y), it's a crime but doesn't confer sex offender status.

So if age of consent is 17 and grace period is 5 years, then an 18 y/o having sex with a 14 y/o goes to jail but isn't a sex offender. A 20 y/o having sex w/ a 15 y/o goes to jail but isn't a sex offender. But a 20 y/o having sex with a 14 y/o is a sex offender, and a 40 y/o having sex with a 15 y/o is definitely a sex offender.

It probably also makes sense to have a shorter period (18 mo or 2 years) for which it isn't a crime - i.e. 15 y/o and 16 y/o are having sex (not a great situation but not criminal). 16 y/o hits their 17th bday and suddenly it's a crime? No, because they're within 2 years of age, it's just bad judgement - and that holds until the younger hits the age of consent, thus dealing with the case where one teen hits the age of consent before the other.

Am I crazy?
That is an idea.

But I think if the 9th grade was moved to Junior School then the rate of these issues will fall dramatically.

Eliminate (at least reduce) the temptation.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:24 PM   #124
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Criminalize dating?
You are talking about simply hanging out?
I can see not advisable, discouraged, but "wrong"?

I guess you mean intimate, at which point you mean sex. Kissing is considered sexual activity in many definitions of sexual activity.
That was the implication. If you read the rest of my post though, I didn't say it should be criminalized by any means. I think it is wrong because someone who is 14 is even less capable of rational thought than someone who is 18. But to say someone who is 18 has reached their full state of rational thought is also wrong.

Both sides have families, lives, friends...if we throw an 18 year old in jail with a bunch of hardened criminals, we are wasting government money and destroying families more than we are 'serving justice'. I don't know about you but I made some pretty stupid calls at 18. That wasnt one of them, but my point is 18 is not a mature adult. So my original point that is is wrong and an 18 year old should know it is wrong stands, but I did not say and am not saying we throw a young man or woman under the bus.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 03:07 PM   #125
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The lines have to be drawn somewhere. If you think this is Draconian, where would you draw the line? 20 and 15? 21 and 15? Try ti determine the intent of every person involved to see if there is abuse? I agree its unfortunate

BTW My Dad started seeing my mom when he was 19 and she 14. Their dates consisted of going to carnivals and sitting on the porch while my grandparents watched over them. There can always be dating along those lines.

Related to that i too had my summer crush of a girl not yet 15 when i was 18, we spent a ton of the summer together and her parents were not to keen on the idea. We never had sex though and i ended up breaking it off, still we dated again about 8 yrs. later.

Dating without sex really is possible and not that unenjoyable despite what our urges and entertainment tell us
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Last edited by robanga; Dec 20, 2012 at 06:19 PM.
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