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Old Dec 20, 2012, 10:39 PM   #76
VinegarTasters
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Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
So what's the answer? You brought up the scenario about using a phone with NFC to turn on my lights.

How far can the NFC on a Note 2 or S3 go? How far can my Note 2 be away from a NFC tag/device to activate my lights at home?

2cm? or less than 1 inch?

Quite a simple question you can't seem to answer.
Hmmm. The answer was already given. Lets try again.

Here is your answer: [ ]

Fill it box with whatever you want. Then design a powered NFC that meets the distance with security to boot. Remember with power, nfc can be designed to reach as far as bluetooth if using antenna in phone. 100 meters. 10 meters. what class do you want? Unpowered NFC like in Samsung? Can use at swipe to gain power for security implementation of new tokens on the fly with private key not susceptible to remote interception.

If you just want to go back and forth, without understanding the core ideas and facts, you are wasting time. We can argue facts all day, but it is the idea that will drive the evolution revolution.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 10:50 PM   #77
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What Android fanboys always fail to understand is that there is more to a device than tech specs. No quad-core for example? Who cares? My iPad 3 feels quicker and more smoother to use than my wife's Nexus 7.

Also part of Apples success is that it knows what to leave out. The first company to start ditching floppy drives, optical drives or leaving out multi-tasking or copy and paste in iOS and in the end came out with a much more useable solution. I don't know much about NFC but I trust Apple are leaving it because it isn't ready yet or they are working on a more useable solution.

I use a lot of Android handsets and iOS devices as part of my job. And while I do get the initial wow factor from a new Android with a couple of weeks use it just frustrates me, small inconsistencies, make me glad to keep going back to my iPhone 5 as my everyday device. Especially on tablets, the amount of quality apps for iPad far outweighs quality Android tablet apps. Android tablets will eventually succeed because if you throw enough out there then something is bound to stick. The Nexus 7 is good for the price but with too many compromises, fair enough, I prefer to pay a bit extra for quality.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 10:56 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by MassiveAttack View Post
These same questions were asked years back:

Why do people make such a fuss about the iPhone not having 3G?

Why do people make such a fuss about the iPhone not having multi tasking?

Why do people make such a fuss about the iPhone not having copy and paste?

Why do people make such a fuss about the iPhone not having a larger display?

Why do people make such a fuss about the iPhone not having a dual core processor?

Why do people make such a fuss about the iPhone not having turn by turn navigation?

and so on....

Do you get it?
Every single thing you listed improves the phone in some way. What does NFC give me that I don't already have?

I can already board a plane and buy coffee and control a light plug at home with my current phone. So what am I missing? A larger screen or 3G are clearly improvements...what's better about NFC?


Quote:
Originally Posted by VinegarTasters View Post
Remember with power, nfc can be designed to reach as far as bluetooth if using antenna in phone.
So, with a little work it can be the same as bluetooth?...which I already have.

Again, what am I missing now?
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 11:05 PM   #79
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Every single thing you listed improves the phone in some way. What does NFC give me that I don't already have?

I can already board a plane and buy coffee and control a light plug at home with my current phone. So what am I missing? A larger screen or 3G are clearly improvements...what's better about NFC?




So, with a little work it can be the same as bluetooth?...which I already have.

Again, what am I missing now?
Why don't you just carry a checkbook with you everywhere? Or why don't you just stop using e-mail and send all your letters by snail mail again? Because it sure looks like you don't need technological improvements, you can do everything the old fashioned way! We can even replace your car with a horse and whip.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 11:16 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by nickchallis92 View Post
security?! Someone would have to turn your phone on and come right up to you and tap your phone.

all this, of course, assumes he's written malicious software too.

Quite frankly, if someone's gone to the effort to write that kind of virus, they're not doing it right and it's an awful way of doing it
Google "ATM Skimmers".

Better yet, here's a good resource:

http://krebsonsecurity.com/tag/atm-skimmer/

Millions are stolen from people by these ATM skimmers...and look at how much effort (hardware and software) the scammers need to implement on the compromised ATM machine in order to skim the cards.

With NFC, all the scammer has to do is place a tiny, nearly invisible NFC reader right under/beside the one you're scanning, and they've copied your info. In the worst of scenarios, they haven't just copied your info, but installed a trojan on to your device to hack into remotely at any time they wish.

Now imagine millions of people all standing in line, and scanning their phones one after the other in the subways/McDonalds/ATMs of the world...if you can't do it securely, you're in trouble.

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Old Dec 20, 2012, 11:30 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
Why don't you just carry a checkbook with you everywhere? Or why don't you just stop using e-mail and send all your letters by snail mail again? Because it sure looks like you don't need technological improvements, you can do everything the old fashioned way! We can even replace your car with a horse and whip.
Did you even read my post at all?

Apparently not.


EDIT: Let me try asking with pictures... This is your argument:



I say "What's the difference to me? Why should I care?"

Does that make more sense?

Last edited by Small White Car; Dec 20, 2012 at 11:38 PM.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 11:47 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by DodgeV83 View Post
Why not use the free app Bump? It's faster than Bluetooth and multi platform.
Because it requires both of you to have the app, and if one has to wait and download it, it would have been faster to use other means.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 11:50 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by VinegarTasters View Post
Of all the posts, this reply has some legitimate links. Unlike the previous poster trying to trick his way into winning an argument providing a link that does not show any large screen size Samsung phones. It is kind of hard to imagine no one knows Galaxy S3 and Note2 sells more phones than any other brands in Samsung. Isn't it all over the news? S3 is 4.8 inch. Not 4.3 as previously stated. If of all phones Samsung sells this S3 phone the most, something must have lighted up in people's heads that people like large screen sizes (you don't need to squint ).
Ah, the Straw Man logical fallacy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Quote:
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
First you focused your attack on only one of my many sources, claiming it does not include any large screen phones (the S3 and Note 2 in particular), completely ignoring the sources I referenced that in fact do include the S3 and Note 2.

Secondly, your claim is false, as the Samsung Galaxy S2 is included in that first source, and that has a 4.52" screen. Significantly larger than the 3.5" iPhone screen that was available during that time period, which sold more than all of these phones put together, and significantly larger than the 3.2" Prevail.

Interestingly enough, all of my sources include large screen phones, yet you claim I'm trying to trick everyone by excluding them, by pointing at the single source I referenced, because it doesn't include two specific large screen phones that weren't even out yet. Classic Strawman.

I have provided a source showing a 3.2" phone outsold all of the larger phones of it's time. I then provided another source showing that in the 7 days ending with October 1st, 2012, that only 6.1% of all Android devices had a 4.3" or larger screen.

Now you make this claim:

"If of all phones Samsung sells this S3 phone the most"

What source do you have for this?

Looking at your original post, I have demonstrably shown that the iPhone 5 can do #1, with links. I have demonstrably shown that any phone with Bluetooth (even a dumbphone) can do #2 ("where is that door opening, room entering light and music on technology? GPS won't work here because you could trigger it a block away. Bluetooth 4.0 I don't think can handle it yet."), also providing links showing how people (including myself) are currently accomplishing this with Bluetooth.

Lastly, I have shown #3 is an opinion, which the market currently does not agree with. If you want it, that's fine, but I have shown multiple sources highlighting that you are in the minority here.

What sources have you shown that I am wrong on #1?

What sources have you shown that I am wrong on #2?

What sources have you shown that I am wrong on #3?
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 11:51 PM   #84
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Serious question, where is NFC used in retail establishment in the US? I have never seen it anywhere. I seen scanning the Starbucks app or boarding passes for a flight, but I don't think I have have ever seen NFC being used.
Are you living in a hole? I see PayPass readers everywhere even on a gas pump at chevron. Look for the PayPass logo, not the NFC N Logo
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 11:54 PM   #85
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Because it requires both of you to have the app, and if one has to wait and download it, it would have been faster to use other means.
The methods being proposed here by the OP require both of you to have specific hardware. Compared to downloading a 4.8MB app, that seems to be a much larger barrier to entry.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 12:20 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Small White Car View Post
Did you even read my post at all?

Apparently not.


EDIT: Let me try asking with pictures... This is your argument:

Image

I say "What's the difference to me? Why should I care?"

Does that make more sense?
Passbook is actually much easier than what's depicted in that photo. Let's compare the examples:

Passbook: I walk in to Starbucks, order my drink, and pull out my phone to pay. My iPhone automatically detects I'm inside a Starbucks and displays this on my lockscreen:



I swipe to the right on the Starbucks icon, and my card immediately pops up. I don't even need to input a password to unlock the phone, my card pops right up (this can be changed in the settings):



I wave this card infront of the scanner that's sitting, facing me, at every terminal:



and I'm on my way. The whole transaction is done in about 3 seconds, that includes turning the iPhone screen on, swiping on the card, and scanning it. The cashier doesn't have to push any buttons, we are all done.

Google Wallet: I walk in to a store supporting Google Wallet. When it's time to pay, I turn on the screen, tap the phone, wait for the Google Wallet app to launch (can take up to 5-7 seconds based on feedback from Android forums), put in my pin number, then tap my phone again.

Sometimes the app doesn't launch when tapping the phone, so you have to unlock the phone, find the Google Wallet app, launch it, and put in your pin number to continue, then tap the phone again.

Then, even if you've done everything correctly, the cashier needs to make sure to hit the right buttons for it to work. There's even a Google Wallet training video to teach the cashier how to use it:

"If the customer is asked for a Pin number on the terminal, you may need to hit the "Credit" button in order to push the transaction through. If that doesn't work, have the customer hit Cancel on the prompt. Finally, look for a transaction confirmation from the customer. The customer should confirm the transaction confirmation verbally."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLbmy4XQsMo

This experience is no where close to the simplicity of Passbook, and is less efficient. What benefit does NFC give me here?
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 12:23 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by DodgeV83 View Post
Passbook is actually much easier than what's depicted in that photo. Let's compare the examples:
This experience is no where close to the simplicity of Passbook.
Lawyered.....
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 12:38 AM   #88
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I can stealing your PassBook barcodes by just taking a video of the screen. Hmmm, a pinhole camera near the scanner........profit.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 12:48 AM   #89
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I can stealing your PassBook barcodes by just taking a video of the screen. Hmmm, a pinhole camera near the scanner........profit.
Yes, placing a camera near the scanner where a cashier sits at all times. Good thinking.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 12:48 AM   #90
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What Android fanboys always fail to understand is that there is more to a device than tech specs. No quad-core for example? Who cares? My iPad 3 feels quicker and more smoother to use than my wife's Nexus 7.
.

I've been saying this for some time, and it comes down to a philisophical difference in design between android and iOS.

iOS is (and it's apps are) lean. No garbage collection (either manual retain/release memory management or the new reference counting method in iOS 6 and maybe 5 - i forget), native code.

Android uses a Java virtual machine, and uses garbage collection. The benefits being more portable code, easier time for the programmer (vs retain/release, not so much vs ARC), but drawbacks being higher resource usage.


To a non-programmer that might not mean much, but the short story is that Java and garbage collection cause significant overheads that mean if you run both a GC and non-GC compiled program on the same hardware, the non-GC version will be faster and smoother (because the memory management is happening when the programmer/compiler determines it should happen, vs the OS or JVM deciding to do garbage collection of stale objects at random - which may be halfway through you scrolling a view - causing a pause, etc).

Ditto for native code vs Java bytecode.

So whilst android handsets may have more ram and more CPUs, due to the software difference it isn't exactly a level playing field.

And higher power CPUs drain battery more. Which means you either need to increase battery size (more weight) or live with slower performance by using a slower CPU.


Given equal technology CPU resources, iOS will be faster.

If the specs are different? Well, it depends. However there is no escaping that more CPU horsepower drains battery faster.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 12:48 AM   #91
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I can stealing your PassBook barcodes by just taking a video of the screen. Hmmm, a pinhole camera near the scanner........profit.
Yup, the same way the ATM skimmers referenced above do it.

The risk on ATM machines, however, is much higher, as the ATM machines are sitting outside and unmonitored 24/7. The risk with an NFC skimmer, even in store, is also much higher, as anyone can quickly and discretely place a tiny and camouflaged NFC sticker on the terminal.

If you're at the point where you're worried about a high resolution video camera being pointed at your phone, then you'd have to worry about using a normal Credit Card as well, because the merchant/cashier is in on the scam, and can just as easily swipe your credit card through a skimmer and copy it right in front of you without you knowing.

You also don't have to worry about your phone getting remote accessed via a trojan through their camera
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 12:58 AM   #92
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And versions of NFC have been proven to be vulnerable to remote exploit, rooting the end users phone with the ability to install malware.

I know what risk I'd rather take thanks - NFC sounds like the early days of networking all over again.

Accepting connections from unauthenticated sources is a BAD IDEA, whether it is TCP/IP, Bluetooth, unsecured wifi, or NFC.

History repeats itself. YET AGAIN.



"Oh but its convenient?"

Nice one...



edit:
I've done networking stuff for a living since 1995. I've seen similar mistakes made before, over and over again. Arguing that an exploit is theoretical might make you feel better, until one of the bad guys makes it practical. it's all just RF signal... build a device that has high enough power output and a high enough gain antenna (thereby mitigating the short-range "problem") and I'm sure you could conduct large scale NFC denial of service or hacking.

Think no one would bother? If there is money involved (e.g., NFC payments), they sure as hell WILL bother.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 01:01 AM   #93
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Yup, the same way the ATM skimmers referenced above do it.

The risk on ATM machines, however, is much higher, as the ATM machines are sitting outside and unmonitored 24/7. The risk with an NFC skimmer, even in store, is also much higher, as anyone can quickly and discretely place a tiny and camouflaged NFC sticker on the terminal.

If you're at the point where you're worried about a high resolution video camera being pointed at your phone, then you'd have to worry about using a normal Credit Card as well, because the merchant/cashier is in on the scam, and can just as easily swipe your credit card through a skimmer and copy it right in front of you without you knowing.

You also don't have to worry about your phone getting remote accessed via a trojan through their camera
It doesn't even have to be the cashier, I could just stand near you with my Galaxy Note 2's camera on and capture an image of your screen and swipe your PassBook barcode.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by throAU View Post
And versions of NFC have been proven to be vulnerable to remote exploit, rooting the end users phone with the ability to install malware.

I know what risk I'd rather take thanks.
Now, you are just talking out of your behind. If you can root a phone through NFC, the jailbreakers and the XDA Developers would like to have a word with you.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 01:04 AM   #94
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It doesn't even have to be the cashier, I could just stand near you with my Galaxy Note 2's camera on and capture an image of your screen and swipe your PassBook barcode.
Now you're just reaching. Anyone standing that close to me while I'm paying is way too far into my bubble. I even cover up the keypad when I'm typing in my PIN for my debit card.

Good luck getting a decent shot off because my screen is only on for a brief moment while I pay and if you think you can take a picture while it's facing away from me being scanned you are just being ridiculous.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 01:05 AM   #95
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Now, you are just talking out of your behind. If you can root a phone through NFC, the jailbreakers and the XDA Developers would like to have a word with you.


Really

http://www.zdnet.com/exploit-beamed-...-4-7000004510/

NFC has been out for how long now?

This is NOT the first NFC exploit that has been accomplished.

Who's talking out of their behind?
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 01:20 AM   #96
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It doesn't even have to be the cashier, I could just stand near you with my Galaxy Note 2's camera on and capture an image of your screen and swipe your PassBook barcode.
Normal credit cards have the same vulnerability, yet the practicality of someone standing beside me being able to inconspicuously take a photo of my credit card, without me knowing, while I swipe it has made this a non-issue.

As a photographer, I would argue that a normal credit card is significantly more vulnerable to someone taking a photo while it's out, as the iPhone screen emits a very strong light, that the camera would need to adjust to, and you simply wouldn't have enough time.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 04:00 AM   #97
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NFC is the future and I still can't believe how iPhone doesn't have it. Plus, it is exactly what they are trying to do with the Passbook. I think it is a dumb move and the next iPhone will definitely have it.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:50 AM   #98
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Well yes the iPhone will inevitably get it so...

I'm going to come back on this thread and see how people feel about the next iPhone having NFC. I'm going to make sure everyone is still using the bar codes and that NFC is turned off in the settings because...well I wouldn't want your iPhones being insecure...
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 08:52 AM   #99
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Nfc

It's pretty clear that NFC isn't used much at all in the US.

However, in the UK, NFC is being used in quite a few places. The London Undergound uses NFC cards called Oyster Cards, London buses now accept NFC credit cards and I think other bus services around the country do, as well. NFC credit cards will also be accepted in London Underground next year.

Also, we can pay using NFC credit cards in food shops, supermarkets and McDonald's. I use my NFC credit card all the time with no problems at all.

I, personally, would like NFC to come to the iPhone.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 09:45 AM   #100
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I use an iPhone but have a nexus 10 which has NFC. You have to have the devices touching to collect data. To rig a machine to do so would require you to actually remove the device then modify it. Even if you pealed the paypass sticker off a machine and put a NFC sticker under it it would likely not communicate with the actual machine. And if it did you'd need more then just a sticker to take and store/transmit information stolen.

Also keep in mind NFC that we use for paypass, PayWave, and whatever American Express and discover use is a different RF frequency then true NFC. It would take a very sophisticated device to steal the correct information. Much more complicated then an ATM skimmer that just records everything.

When it comes to money there will always be new innovated ways to steal it. But I feel NFC is very secure compared to physical credit cards.

Terminals for using this technology is VERY wide spread in the US. McDonald's, 7-11, Wawa, sheets, best buy, foot locker, gap, etc etc etc. That is why I like it. Btw I don't like Starbucks, and although I'm I've used electronic boarding passes since long before passbook I prefer not too. The guy using an electronic boarding pass be it on Android, blackberry or the iPhone is the guy slowing down the line at the terminal which I see 2-3 times a week.
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