3 Features iPhone 5 Lacks Badly

[Baggio]

Originally Posted by dontwalkhand

Are you living in a hole? I see PayPass readers everywhere even on a gas pump at chevron. Look for the PayPass logo, not the NFC N Logo

No Chevrons here.

And my Visa debit card has Pay Wave and the only place I have seen that ability to pay was CVS and it didn't work.

NFC is not be used or utilized very much in the US.

[qawsed27]

n/a

[VinegarTasters]

Conclusion? Apple wants in on NFC, but the patents are locked by other companies, so they are negotiating and buying their way in. Using Passbook as a temporary solution (subpar solution). Anyone can photoshop a Passbook image after taking a picture 7 feet way using any 8 to 14 megapixel phone. I think at starbucks, people line up snaking the front cash register, and a person in line 7 feet away can pretend to be looking at messages holding phone up, while all the time snapping pictures of the passbook screen at an angle at the register. Then go home and photoshop a clean one to put in background image. Later that person will buy all your drinks at starbucks.

This is less secure than having NFC with one-time-pad or RSA secret key tokens that prevent replay attacks. The equipment to steal NFC signals is also harder than a simple camera everyone has, not to mention useless to hack in this scenario.

[Beeplance]

well, looks like this thread is still here after my 3 days of time-out.

I don't think NFC is really that exciting or anything, combine with the fact that it isn't that prevalent in my country as well. Passbook is ok, but it needs to be improved and more widely used, which I think Apple should take the initiative to encourage. When it becomes more widespread, I think it will be really convenient for users, and will change the way of payments.

[DodgeV83]

Originally Posted by VinegarTasters

Conclusion? Apple wants in on NFC, but the patents are locked by other companies, so they are negotiating and buying their way in. Using Passbook as a temporary solution (subpar solution). Anyone can photoshop a Passbook image after taking a picture 7 feet way using any 8 to 14 megapixel phone. I think at starbucks, people line up snaking the front cash register, and a person in line 7 feet away can pretend to be looking at messages holding phone up, while all the time snapping pictures of the passbook screen at an angle at the register. Then go home and photoshop a clean one to put in background image. Later that person will buy all your drinks at starbucks.

This is less secure than having NFC with one-time-pad or RSA secret key tokens that prevent replay attacks. The equipment to steal NFC signals is also harder than a simple camera everyone has, not to mention useless to hack in this scenario.

1. The Passbook image has smaller details than a credit card number on a physical card, yet you don't hear of people's credit cards being stolen from cameras when swiping.

Can you explain why you believe this is an issue with Passbook and not normal credit cards?

2. The Passbook image has similarly sized details as the normal physical rewards card you would bring into a store, yet you don't hear of people's rewards card being stolen from cameras when scanning.

Can you explain why you believe this is an issue with Passbook and not normal rewards cards?

3. Currently, none of the NFC implementations are using the one-time-pad or RSA secret key tokens to prevent replay attacks (Correct me if I'm wrong). Also, Passbook cards can be changed after each use as well.

How this is an advantage for NFC, when no NFC solutions currently use this technology, and Passbook has the same functionality?

4. Even with these extra security features implemented, none of them would prevent the phone from being hacked from a rogue NFC sticker that was discretely placed near the terminal, or by someone walking by. None of this is possible with Passbook, as it is a one-way communication. Like throAU said earlier, "Accepting connections from unauthenticated sources is a BAD IDEA, whether it is TCP/IP, Bluetooth, unsecured wifi, or NFC." Here is a blog post from RSA themselves on the matter:

This is not a new attack as we’ve seen the replay of RFID before, but it’s a much stealthier attack as everything is contained within the phone. Imagine walking by someone and pushing “attack” on your phone’s software moments before the swing of your arm matches up with the swing of the leg where he pockets his wallet. Quickly and stealthily interrogating the payment instruments and using them to buy things later.

http://blogs.rsa.com/payments-and-nfc-still-under-fire/

-----------------------------

Your original post named "3 Features iPhone 5 Lacks Badly". You seem to have gone quiet on all 3 features (Image Stabilization, NFC not for purchases, but for tasks like turning on the lights when you enter the room, and low demand due to not having a wider and 1080p screen).

Can I take this to mean you have conceded these points?

P.S. A new report shows Apple has captured 53.3% of the US market on the strength of the iPhone 5 (a single premium phone), over Android's 41.9% (hundreds of phones from budget $69 off-contract, to premium).



http://9to5mac.com/2012/12/21/report...d-drops-to-42/

While I loathe using a report from a "research firm" as a source, all indications point to your original statement being wrong:

1080p wider screen. (You know why the stocks are down currently because of lower demand than usual).

[eelw]

Originally Posted by VinegarTasters

Anyone can photoshop a Passbook image after taking a picture 7 feet way using any 8 to 14 megapixel phone. I think at starbucks, people line up snaking the front cash register, and a person in line 7 feet away can pretend to be looking at messages holding phone up, while all the time snapping pictures of the passbook screen at an angle at the register. Then go home and photoshop a clean one to put in background image. Later that person will buy all your drinks at starbucks.

Even at 3 feet and head on shot, you won't get an usable image. Let alone at an off angle from even further.

[SomeDudeAsking]

Originally Posted by eelw

Even at 3 feet and head on shot, you won't get an usable image. Let alone at an off angle from even further.

Oh, geez, how do cops ever manage to take crystal clear pictures of license plates from hundreds of feet away with cars moving at 70 miles an hour. Impossible! The police must be using some of Steve Jobs' magic.

[irDigital0l]

Originally Posted by DodgeV83

P.S. A new report shows Apple has captured 53.3% of the US market on the strength of the iPhone 5 (a single premium phone), over Android's 41.9% (hundreds of phones from budget $69 off-contract, to premium).

OVERALL U.S. market (not last quarter)...

Android - 52%
iOS in second - 35%
Blackberry OS - 7%
Other - 5%
Windows Phone - 2%

Source: Nielsen

----------

Originally Posted by qawsed27

n/a

Why do people think Apple is perfect?

[vastoholic]

Originally Posted by irDigital0l

OVERALL U.S. market (not last quarter)...

Android - 52%
iOS in second - 35%
Blackberry OS - 7%
Other - 5%
Windows Phone - 2%

Source: Nielsen[COLOR="#808080"]

Two different comparisons. OS market share to manufacturer market share. Not ever manufacturers Android has the same specs or features. Every iPhone within its generation can do the same thing.

Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking

Oh, geez, how do cops ever manage to take crystal clear pictures of license plates from hundreds of feet away with cars moving at 70 miles an hour. Impossible! The police must be using some of Steve Jobs' magic.

Are you serious dude? Please go out try to accomplish this without looking completely suspicious while you try to focus your phone pointing at someone's credit card. Do people just leave their cards out in the open these days or am I the only one who tries to safeguard my information. Again, my card is only out long enough to swipe and then it's back in my wallet.

[irDigital0l]

Originally Posted by vastoholic

Two different comparisons. OS market share to manufacturer market share. Not ever manufacturers Android has the same specs or features. Every iPhone within its generation can do the same thing.

I know, I'm just saying that while this is good for Apple this quarter...people are acting like Apple retook the market share.

[DodgeV83]

Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking

Oh, geez, how do cops ever manage to take crystal clear pictures of license plates from hundreds of feet away with cars moving at 70 miles an hour. Impossible! The police must be using some of Steve Jobs' magic.

License area are orders of magnitude larger than the details on a small barcode, and they have a perfect angle with 100% control over the surrounding conditions, in a wide open space.

The only people in-store who have an angle to take a photo of a Passbook pass, are the people behind the register. If you're worried about people behind the register, they can compromise the transaction no matter which form of payment you use. Your phone is facing outwards from the other customers when scanning, what you are proposing is simply not possible from their perspective.

Can I take your silence on my questions above to mean you cannot explain your position?

1. The Passbook image has smaller details than a credit card number on a physical card, yet you don't hear of people's credit cards being stolen from cameras when swiping.

Can you explain why you believe this is an issue with Passbook and not normal credit cards?

2. The Passbook image has similarly sized details as the normal physical rewards card you would bring into a store, yet you don't hear of people's rewards card being stolen from cameras when scanning.

Can you explain why you believe this is an issue with Passbook and not normal rewards cards?

[vastoholic]

Originally Posted by irDigital0l

I know, I'm just saying that while this is good for Apple this quarter...people are acting like Apple retook the market share.

True and I'm not saying market share means the best of anything. Missed the point you were trying to get across.

[DodgeV83]

Originally Posted by irDigital0l

OVERALL U.S. market (not last quarter)...

Android - 52%
iOS in second - 35%
Blackberry OS - 7%
Other - 5%
Windows Phone - 2%

Source: Nielsen

This is not relevant to the topic of discussion.

The original post said there is "lower demand than usual", because the iPhone 5's screen is too small. The report I posted directly contradicts that. On the contrary, exceptionally strong demand for the iPhone 5 has put Apple in a position it has never been in before, with 53.3% of the market during this time period.

[VinegarTasters]

I think I've explained the 3 lacking features enough to stand on their own. I am not going to be replying to people who simply think ignoring a fact and repeating an already answered statement over and over again will somehow change the original fact.

subpar stabilization, no one will use. if they really need stabilization use software or the i5 stabilization takes away rather than augment.

Samsung selling more Galaxy S3 4.8 inch large screen than all their other brands.

Passbook:
AND It's been stated people line up snaking the front register at Starbucks. Snaking means hugging the counter, in a line next to register, NOT facing the register ( if they do that the line will force customers to exit the front door or hit the customer's chairs!). For those who don.t believe how easy it is to hack a passbook image, use your 8 megapixel camera and snap a passbook image from 3 feet away (like he said is impossible) at an angle (like you are snaking around the counter). 3 feet away is fourth in line, so it's not like you are being suspicious reading messages in phone. I just tried it, and it is crystal clear at 3 feet. If you use 14MP you can double your distance to 6-7 feet. Hell, if you have a canon 24Mp with optical zoom lens, you can be seated anywhere in Starbucks near the back and capture the code crystal clear. For those in doubt, any 42 or greater inch television requires you to be 4 feet away to take the whole screen. A lowly iPhone 3GS camera can capture all dots (1920x1080) of that TV and each dot is about size of the passbook dots.

I am mentioning this because this is a major security issue. It is fairly easy to capture images of passbook, while NFC has security built in so even if someone gets your code they can't do anything with it (and more difficult to capture as the technology is not common like a camera). It has secret key used and is tied to your device only.

And the credit card pic thing is moot. Getting a pic of the card does nothing. Online they need the back 3 security digits. Offline, they would need to reproduce a credit card with stripe and hologram logo, which is way harder than simply using photoshop image on any iPhone. Plus, you can hide credit card in hand while giving, while passbook you need to look at your iphone to select pass, then turn 180 degrees to scanner with bright LCD screaming look at me at the time from facing you to facing scanner.

[maxosx]

Why buy any product if one is so unhappy, they're more concerned over what it doesn't have?

Why not do the research beforehand & choose wisely.

That's what I do.

My iPhone 5 is quite nice & works OK for me. It doesn't have everything I want, but no smartphone does.

Nothing strange about that.

[vastoholic]

Originally Posted by VinegarTasters

Passbook:
AND It's been stated people line up snaking the front register at Starbucks. Snaking means hugging the counter, in a line next to register, NOT facing the register ( if they do that the line will force customers to exit the front door or hit the customer's chairs!). For those who don.t believe how easy it is to hack a passbook image, use your 8 megapixel camera and snap a passbook image from 3 feet away (like he said is impossible) at an angle (like you are snaking around the counter). 3 feet away is fourth in line, so it's not like you are being suspicious reading messages in phone. I just tried it, and it is crystal clear at 3 feet. If you use 14MP you can double your distance to 6-7 feet. Hell, if you have a canon 24Mp with optical zoom lens, you can be seated anywhere in Starbucks near the back and capture the code crystal clear. For those in doubt, any 42 or greater inch television requires you to be 4 feet away to take the whole screen. A lowly iPhone 3GS camera can capture all dots (1920x1080) of that TV and each dot is about size of the passbook dots.

How do most people use their cell phones?





You would have to either get out of line or raise your arm up above the crowd to get a decent shot. That, sir, would be suspicious. "Oh don't mind me while I raise my phone up and point it towards this other guy three people in front of me. But again, apple makes it to where you don't even need to have the phone on until you are ready to pay. Wake from sleep, slide on, face towards scanner, put phone to sleep. Who in the hell sits around an establishment with a large DLSR camera taking pictures of the register. It's not at all what you are trying to make it out to be. Yes I could get a really great shot of another phone's screen in a static environment when no one else is holding the phone to block the view or their thumb isn't partially in the way and in perfect lighting conditions while I wait for the phone to focus on the tiny screen from 3+ feet away and adjust the exposure to compensate for the LCD screen. Try it out in the real world environment and see how many people don't stop to question what you are trying to do.

[DodgeV83]

Originally Posted by VinegarTasters

subpar stabilization, no one will use.

Based on what? Have you used any of the apps I've referred to and compared them to the Youtube stabilization?

I have a challenge for you. Tomorrow I will post a video with iPhone 5 stabilization and then post another with YouTube stabilization, and let you pick which one you like best. Do you accept my challenge?

Originally Posted by VinegarTasters

Samsung selling more Galaxy S3 4.8 inch large screen than all their other brands.

Source?

Originally Posted by VinegarTasters

Passbook:
AND It's been stated people line up snaking the front register at Starbucks. Snaking means hugging the counter, in a line next to register, NOT facing the register ( if they do that the line will force customers to exit the front door or hit the customer's chairs!). For those who don.t believe how easy it is to hack a passbook image, use your 8 megapixel camera and snap a passbook image from 3 feet away (like he said is impossible) at an angle (like you are snaking around the counter). 3 feet away is fourth in line, so it's not like you are being suspicious reading messages in phone. I just tried it, and it is crystal clear at 3 feet. If you use 14MP you can double your distance to 6-7 feet. Hell, if you have a canon 24Mp with optical zoom lens, you can be seated anywhere in Starbucks near the back and capture the code crystal clear. For those in doubt, any 42 or greater inch television requires you to be 4 feet away to take the whole screen. A lowly iPhone 3GS camera can capture all dots (1920x1080) of that TV and each dot is about size of the passbook dots.

I am mentioning this because this is a major security issue. It is fairly easy to capture images of passbook, while NFC has security built in so even if someone gets your code they can't do anything with it (and more difficult to capture as the technology is not common like a camera). It has secret key used and is tied to your device only.

Do you have a source of people getting hacked in this fashion? Lines snaking around before you pay, have no bearing on the angle of your phone while you are at the register paying, nor does it have any bearing on the proximity of the people standing behind you while paying. When you scan the phone, you are standing directly in the line of fire, blocking any photo that could possibly be taken.

We're telling you it's impossible, but you seem to disagree. We've explained how your proposed angles are both technically and logically infeasible, but you think you know better. Prove it. Show us a single source of this happening to someone. If this were feasible, it would be all over the news, "Apple Passbook hacked!". Do you think there is a major vulnerability in the world's #1 selling smartphone from the world's #1 most profitable smartphone maker...and you're the only one who knows about it?

Furthermore, why do you focus on mobile payment security (especially when Passbook has the same security features), but keep ignoring the posts about NFC allowing the phone to be remotely hacked?

We have shown indisputable proof of the security vulnerabilities of NFC. I have posted a quote from an official RSA page explaining how dangerous NFC is. Fellow poster throAU posted a link showing how hackers at Pwn2Own used NFC to hack into a Galaxy S3.

Quote from the article:

According to Erasmus, the exploit was delivered via NFC, the short-range wireless technology allows the sharing of small payloads of data between an NFC tag and an Android-powered device. The hackers exploited a weakness in the way NFC is implemented in the Galaxy S3 to deliver a malicious file that was automatically opened by the Android document viewer.

Once the file opened, the team exploited a zero-day flaw in the document viewer to launch a code execution attack. A second Android privilege escalation vulnerability, also zero-day, was then used to get full rights on the device.

With escalated rights, the team had access to all the data on the Samsung S3, including the e-mail and SMS databases, the address book, the photo gallery and access to third-party app data.

"We can do anything on the phone with our Trojan running in the background," Erasmus said in an interview after the successful hack. "The user is oblivious to it because NFC allows us to open the malicious document without any user interaction."

Exploit beamed via NFC to hack Samsung Galaxy S3

This source shows how a tiny chip, that can easily be camouflaged and taped to the side of a terminal, can install trojan horse viruses on each phone that gets within range:

The attack works by putting the phone a few centimeters away from a quarter-sized chip, or touching it to another NFC-enabled phone. Code on the attacker-controlled chip or handset is beamed to the target phone over the air, then opens malicious files or webpages that exploit known vulnerabilities in a document reader or browser, or in some cases in the operating system itself.

Android, Nokia smartphone security toppled by Near Field Communication hack

Furthermore, no NFC apps that I can find currently use this security you speak of. Can you show us one? Do you have a source? Passbook has the exact same capabilities, the technology exists for your card to change after each use, so even if someone gets your code, they can not do anything with it.

Originally Posted by VinegarTasters

And the credit card pic thing is moot. Getting a pic of the card does nothing. Online they need the back 3 security digits. Offline, they would need to reproduce a credit card with stripe and hologram logo, which is way harder than simply using photoshop image on any iPhone. Plus, you can hide credit card in hand while giving, while passbook you need to look at your iphone to select pass, then turn 180 degrees to scanner with bright LCD screaming look at me at the time from facing you to facing scanner.

There are many places online which do not require the 3 security digits. Even if they do, then all you need is two photos, one of the front and one of the back, according to your own statements, this can be done by anyone from anywhere in the store with a DSLR and a zoom lens.

I implore you, accept my stabilization challenge. Find sources to backup your claims of NFC being more secure than Passbook. Find sources to show that bluetooth isn't good enough for, "door opening, room entering light and music on technology" Find sources to backup your claims that the iPhone is showing "lower demand than usual" because the screen is too small and not 1080p.

Simply stating it as fact, does not make it so.

[QuarterSwede]

Originally Posted by Baggio

No Chevrons here.

And my Visa debit card has Pay Wave and the only place I have seen that ability to pay was CVS and it didn't work.

NFC is not be used or utilized very much in the US.

A lot of places accept NFC it's just that no one knows they exist because the symbol looks like a sideways wifi symbol and the reader is an add-on on top of the current credit card readers.

The only real advantage NFC offers is being able to pay from a phone which is currently extremely limited (licensing and all). I've got a Visa Pay Wave card (NFC built into a credit card) and have used it to pay before. Unfortunately, taping it to pay takes about 3x as long as just swiping the card. Currently, NFC is fairly useless which is sad as I would LOVE to ditch my wallet.

[aliensporebomb]

Face it - the mania for larger and larger screens seems to be being driven by porn viewers.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by VinegarTasters

Hmmm. The answer was already given. Lets try again.

Here is your answer: [ ]

Fill it box with whatever you want. Then design a powered NFC that meets the distance with security to boot. Remember with power, nfc can be designed to reach as far as bluetooth if using antenna in phone. 100 meters. 10 meters. what class do you want? Unpowered NFC like in Samsung? Can use at swipe to gain power for security implementation of new tokens on the fly with private key not susceptible to remote interception.

If you just want to go back and forth, without understanding the core ideas and facts, you are wasting time. We can argue facts all day, but it is the idea that will drive the evolution revolution.

Why not make it easier on all of us.

Show us a NFC light switch system I can buy now to use with my Note 2.

I've been wanting to try out NFC on my Note 2, but haven't found any use for it.

[VinegarTasters]

You guys don't get it. Look at 3:41 in this video:



Tell me how do you do that with Passbook? See how inconvenient? You can't do that conveniently with Bluetooth nor WiFi. NFC provides solutions.

Note 2 doesn't support Powered NFC I believe, but doesn't mean powered NFC can be supported in the future by any manufacturer's phone.

I am getting censored again, so I don't know what posts will disappear in the future. I just lost a whole thread pertaining to this iPad Mini topic:



So don't blame me if I can't respond at all.

[NT1440]

Originally Posted by VinegarTasters

They want 1080p so they can view all their movies and shows in 1080p without cropping or rescaling, losing detail.

Yea....No.

Who the **** can even see the difference in HD between 720 and 1080 ON A PHONE? Better yet, why in the world would anyone want to watch a full length film on their phone? Especially when with a touch of a button I can just airplay it right onto my TV?

I get the usage for the subway or on a plane, but really, what is better about the experience of 720 vs 1080 on a screen that will be hurting your eyes an hour into the movie anyway?

This all reeks of tech spec wankery.

As for your mini video, yes, 163 is the only density that that can be used efectively right now so that when the IGZO screens bust into the market (which is COMPLETELY bound up right now, hence them having to use the lower resolution screen) they can keep the form factor and then double the density. IGZO is the only market feasible way to do it right now and look at how hard it is. Even the full sized iPad is still having production issues because this is generation 1 IGZO screen technology that is still being ramped up for full scale production. Sharp simply doesn't have the manufacturing capability at the moment to make a 7.9" IGZO display in the defect free numbers apple needs (12 million minis so far). THAT is why the mini currently has the screen it does, market and manufacturing bottlenecks. Not some nefarious plan.

[DodgeV83]

Originally Posted by VinegarTasters

You guys don't get it. Look at 3:41 in this video:

YouTube: video

Tell me how do you do that with Passbook? See how inconvenient? You can't do that conveniently with Bluetooth nor WiFi. NFC provides solutions.

3:41 shows phones sharing data with each other, why would you bring up Passbook at all? No one is arguing that Passbook allows you to easily share data between phones. This is another Strawman argument,

A straw man argument is one that misrepresents a position in order to make it appear weaker than it actually is, refutes this misrepresentation of the position, and then concludes that the real position has been refuted.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/ambiguity/straw-man/

Why do you believe Bluetooth can't do this? Why do you believe Wifi can't do this? Why do you believe a normal internet connection (like the Bump app that can even share with nearby computers) can't do this?

[Nand]

Originally Posted by VinegarTasters

I think I've explained the 3 lacking features enough to stand on their own. I am not going to be replying to people who simply think ignoring a fact and repeating an already answered statement over and over again will somehow change the original fact.

subpar stabilization, no one will use. if they really need stabilization use software or the i5 stabilization takes away rather than augment.

Samsung selling more Galaxy S3 4.8 inch large screen than all their other brands.

Passbook:
AND It's been stated people line up snaking the front register at Starbucks. Snaking means hugging the counter, in a line next to register, NOT facing the register ( if they do that the line will force customers to exit the front door or hit the customer's chairs!). For those who don.t believe how easy it is to hack a passbook image, use your 8 megapixel camera and snap a passbook image from 3 feet away (like he said is impossible) at an angle (like you are snaking around the counter). 3 feet away is fourth in line, so it's not like you are being suspicious reading messages in phone. I just tried it, and it is crystal clear at 3 feet. If you use 14MP you can double your distance to 6-7 feet. Hell, if you have a canon 24Mp with optical zoom lens, you can be seated anywhere in Starbucks near the back and capture the code crystal clear. For those in doubt, any 42 or greater inch television requires you to be 4 feet away to take the whole screen. A lowly iPhone 3GS camera can capture all dots (1920x1080) of that TV and each dot is about size of the passbook dots.

I am mentioning this because this is a major security issue. It is fairly easy to capture images of passbook, while NFC has security built in so even if someone gets your code they can't do anything with it (and more difficult to capture as the technology is not common like a camera). It has secret key used and is tied to your device only.

And the credit card pic thing is moot. Getting a pic of the card does nothing. Online they need the back 3 security digits. Offline, they would need to reproduce a credit card with stripe and hologram logo, which is way harder than simply using photoshop image on any iPhone. Plus, you can hide credit card in hand while giving, while passbook you need to look at your iphone to select pass, then turn 180 degrees to scanner with bright LCD screaming look at me at the time from facing you to facing scanner.

Samsung selling more Galaxy S3 4.8 inch large screen than all their other brands.

Again source?


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