The meaning of being conservative - differs by region?

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by rmwebs

Take for example the house next door to me. It's constantly let out, and always has Polish groups living there. They work here for 6 months doing self-employed contract work, then go home before they have to pay their share of the tax. So they can effectively work completely tax free, due to the way the EU works.

Who's employing these people and paying them under the table?

Seems like they bear much of the responsibility for creating that situation.

[rmwebs]

Originally Posted by Happybunny

I second that.

Although just to point out - I didn't mean it in a nasty way...its just that being part of Europe has zero (literally ZERO) benefit to the UK, whilst costing us £22,000 every minute (€27040).

Whilst I get what the goal of the EU was, it's failed miserably.

[Mord]

Originally Posted by rmwebs

I could be wrong, but isnt UKIP supposed to be the party all about being Libertarian. Seems like the non-racist alternative to the BNP.

This seems to be their key policy:

(http://www.ukip.org/page/ukip-history)

They pretend not to be racist, but they are basically racist.

Homophobic too.

[rmwebs]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Who's employing these people and paying them under the table?

Seems like they bear much of the responsibility for creating that situation.

Legally, anyone employ them. But they are registering as self-employed, so do contract work - there's no real requirement on people contracting them to do any kind of 'screening'.

It's basically down to a flawed system. The rules weren't put in place before they opened our borders up, and now it's caused too many problems to really fix whilst remaining part of the EU.

If the EU had it their way, we wouldn't even have a government. It seems like they literally want to create "The United States of Europe" which is just completely crazy.

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Originally Posted by Mord

They pretend not to be racist, but they are basically racist.

Homophobic too.

Ahh fair enough - I wouldn't know - I dont tend to support any of our backwards political parties...they are all as useless as each other IMO.

[Happybunny]

Originally Posted by rmwebs

Although just to point out - I didn't mean it in a nasty way...its just that being part of Europe has zero (literally ZERO) benefit to the UK, whilst costing us £22,000 every minute (€27040).

Whilst I get what the goal of the EU was, it's failed miserably.

No offense taken.
I'm old enough to remember when Britain tried to join in the 1960's. Gen de Gaulle said non, he said that you were just to close to the US, and he was right.

Just seeing Bush and Blair grinning made my skin crawl.

[Mord]

Originally Posted by rmwebs

Ahh fair enough - I wouldn't know - I dont tend to support any of our backwards political parties...they are all as useless as each other IMO.

Same, I would like a party that represents me, though there isn't one, not even on the fringe.

I'll probably vote labour next general simply to aid the conservative party not getting in again. I hate the idea of voting for labour in principle but pragmatically I feel extremely compelled to do everything in my power to avoid a second term for cameron.

[rmwebs]

Originally Posted by Happybunny

No offense taken.
I'm old enough to remember when Britain tried to join in the 1960's. Gen de Gaulle said non, he said that you were just to close to the US, and he was right.

Just seeing Bush and Blair grinning made my skin crawl.

Yeah I can understand (and agree) the worry. Bush and Blair was just horrible.

And together they did bugger all to resolve debt, which resulted in the recession.

Thankfully Ca-moron and Obama dont seem to see eye to eye quite so much. We no longer feel like we're being a puppet of the US (although ironically its now the EU doing the puppeteering.

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Originally Posted by Mord

Same, I would like a party that represents me, though there isn't one, not even on the fringe.

I'll probably vote labour next general simply to aid the conservative party not getting in again. I hate the idea of voting for labour in principle but pragmatically I feel extremely compelled to do everything in my power to avoid a second term for cameron.

Yeah likewise.

Annoyingly I voted Lib Dem just because I couldn't stand the idea of Cameron or Brown in power. Clegg actually seemed pretty humble right up to the elections.

[NickZac]

Originally Posted by zioxide

A large portion of the people of this country who like to call themselves "conservative" are actually religious extremists.


And that info-graphic is pretty inaccurate. It tries to claim that the left wants to interfere with "society" and "social lives" yet we all know it wasn't the left that was trying to deny civil rights and intrude on the personal lives and decisions of gays and women.

Absolutely. Many republican party platform pillars contradict conservative reasoning because they include forced social regulation that is clearly driven by religion, christianity to be specific.

[63dot]

Conservative as a term even has its regional differences in the USA.

I just heard a great libertarian talk show guest (ABC radio affiliate) talk about how both the GOP and democrats can expand their bases, but are too stupid to.

As for talking about republicans from state to state, the reason he said that party had failed most notably in California is that the "conservatives" there were a lot like the Goldwater/Western republicans (and somewhat similar to libertarians in some ways) but adopted a GOP platform similar to an Alabama republican point of view. While prayer in schools, gay marriage, and abortion were great issues to focus on for republicans in many southern states, it was a terrible approach in California and just weakened the GOP and its credibility out west. Taking a socially conservative platform alienated too many Goldwater/Western republicans and conservatives. It was this alienation where he thought the libertarians can gain ground with a mix of fiscal conservative/social moderate type of candidate.

While I can't stand the GOP and don't wish them well, I think this libertarian had some valuable points which would help them gain a lot more independents. I could almost like a party who is both careful with their spending yet is socially progressive but it would take the republicans a hundred years to mold themselves into any champion of social progressiveness. Even if the next three republican presidents, whenever they win, are minorities, they will still not gain the minority vote.

[unlinked]

Originally Posted by rmwebs

Whilst I get what the goal of the EU was, it's failed miserably.

Did I blink and miss a European land war?

[Peterkro]

Originally Posted by rmwebs

Legally, anyone employ them. But they are registering as self-employed, so do contract work - there's no real requirement on people contracting them to do any kind of 'screening'.

It's basically down to a flawed system. The rules weren't put in place before they opened our borders up, and now it's caused too many problems to really fix whilst remaining part of the EU.

This is not true subbies in the building trade are covered by CIS (Construction Industry Scheme) which is very tight on tax matters.Years ago before the "influx" of other Europeans this wasn't so and led to much cash in hand with that lack of protections that goes along with that.There are sections of the building trade (mainly domestic small works) where CIS can be avoided although I must say that group to my knowledge doesn't have an over representation by Poles or any other nationallity,in fact most of the "cowboys" I come across are brits.

[Eraserhead]

Originally Posted by rmwebs

its just that being part of Europe has zero (literally ZERO) benefit to the UK,

I think this is one of the most wrong statements I've ever seen in this forum.

The EU makes up half of UK trade - and in today's world made up of increasingly large states (China, India and the US come to mind) it is the best way to avoid divide and conquer from the larger powers.

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Originally Posted by rmwebs

And together they did bugger all to resolve debt,

Actually Brown is one of the few recent UK finance ministers to have run a surplus.

[rmwebs]

Originally Posted by Eraserhead

I think this is one of the most wrong statements I've ever seen in this forum.

The EU makes up half of UK trade - and in today's world made up of increasingly large states (China, India and the US come to mind) it is the best way to avoid divide and conquer from the larger powers.[COLOR="#808080"]

It also makes up a massive amount of spending in both direct costs in the EU and non-direct costs (e.g giving benefits to everyone+dog who decide to move here).

The EU holds no benefits to this country. Not being part of the EU would not stop our trade with Europe, but it would stop us spending £50m a day (yes, that is the correct figure) just for the privilege of being part of the EU.

[Eraserhead]

Originally Posted by rmwebs

It also makes up a massive amount of spending in both direct costs in the EU and non-direct costs (e.g giving benefits to everyone+dog who decide to move here).

And also high quality immigrants who do loads of jobs and pay lots of tax (source).



And why would you come to Britain for the benefits anyway? Aside from housing benefit (which is generous only because rent in the UK is high - but which also isn't easily pocketable) none of them are particularly generous.

Originally Posted by rmwebs

The EU holds no benefits to this country. Not being part of the EU would not stop our trade with Europe,

If we leave the EU, either like Norway we won't get any say in the rules, but still have to follow them or we'll get shut out of a lot of cross border trade.

EDIT: And we risk our international banking and legal industries as they pay lots of tax and will want to be in the EU so they can do business in Europe - so chances are they will start to move to Frankfurt or something if we leave the EU.

Originally Posted by rmwebs

but it would stop us spending £50m a day (yes, that is the correct figure) just for the privilege of being part of the EU.

I had a quick Google and according to the Daily Wail it is that high, but do you have a source from someone serious like the Economist or the FT?

[Happybunny]

Originally Posted by rmwebs

It also makes up a massive amount of spending in both direct costs in the EU and non-direct costs (e.g giving benefits to everyone+dog who decide to move here).

The EU holds no benefits to this country. Not being part of the EU would not stop our trade with Europe, but it would stop us spending £50m a day (yes, that is the correct figure) just for the privilege of being part of the EU.

Originally Posted by Eraserhead

And also high quality immigrants who do loads of jobs and pay lots of tax (source).

Image

And why would you come to Britain for the benefits anyway? Aside from housing benefit (which is generous only because rent in the UK is high - but which also isn't easily pocketable) none of them are particularly generous.



If we leave the EU, either like Norway we won't get any say in the rules, but still have to follow them or we'll get shut out of a lot of cross border trade.

EDIT: And we risk our international banking and legal industries as they pay lots of tax and will want to be in the EU so they can do business in Europe - so chances are they will start to move to Frankfurt or something if we leave the EU.



I had a quick Google and according to the Daily Wail it is that high, but do you have a source from someone serious like the Economist or the FT?

Please stop talking with fact and figures the EU is not in your hearts, and have a referendum and leave all ready.

De Gaulle was certainly right about the fact that Britain should never have been let in.
For the last forty years you have as a country always been the least European minded, well nows the time to leave.

[Beeplance]

Originally Posted by Tomorrow

In my opinion, this infographic pretty much hits the nail on the head.

Nice diagram!

Back then in the US elections, when Romney said he wanted to reduce taxes for the rich and increase taxes for the poor, I really wondered what would've happen to America if that happens. Rich becomes richer, poor becomes poorer. Equality would've vanish and income disparity would've increased exponentially.

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

Originally Posted by Happybunny

Please stop talking with fact and figures the EU is not in your hearts, and have a referendum and leave all ready.

De Gaulle was certainly right about the fact that Britain should never have been let in.
For the last forty years you have as a country always been the least European minded, well nows the time to leave.

Happybunny, I think you are prejudiced. Whatever. But, Gaullism? Grandeur? Really.

Back on topic --

Conservative is a term that has been used to describe Maoists and Stalinists in context, as well as Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. Conservative usually means maintaining the power of those in power. It doesn't describe an socioeconomic orientation very well at all.

I notice that a lot of today's young people seem to be confused about the Republican Party and think that it is basically Libertarian. It isn't. But, at least the word Libertarian generally does mean something socially and economically, although many/most Libertarians have a huge blind spot when it comes to monopolies.

[Happybunny]

Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk

Happybunny, I think you are prejudiced. Whatever. But, Gaullism? Grandeur? Really.

Back on topic --

Conservative is a term that has been used to describe Maoists and Stalinists in context, as well as Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. Conservative usually means maintaining the power of those in power. It doesn't describe an socioeconomic orientation very well at all.

I notice that a lot of today's young people seem to be confused about the Republican Party and think that it is basically Libertarian. It isn't. But, at least the word Libertarian generally does mean something socially and economically, although many/most Libertarians have a huge blind spot when it comes to monopolies.

I don't think that it is prejudiced, they do have UKIP which has as it'd sole aim to leave the EU. That's all the Conservative Party in the UK talks about.
If you don't believe me just read their new papers for a time.

56% of Britons would vote to quit EU in referendum, poll finds
Results of survey will make sobering reading for leaders of three major parties, as PM prepares for crucial meeting on EU budget



Nigel Farage's anti-Brussels Ukip is improving in the polls as voters become increasingly eurosceptic. Photograph: Antonio Olmos for the Observer
Well over half of British voters now want to leave the European Union, according to an opinion poll that shows anti-EU sentiment is sweeping through all three main political parties.

The Opinium/Observer survey finds that 56% of people would probably or definitely vote for the UK to go it alone if they were offered the choice in a referendum. About 68% of Conservative voters want to leave the EU, against 24% who want to remain; 44% of Labour voters would probably choose to get out, against 39% who would back staying in, while some 39% of Liberal Democrats would probably or definitely vote to get out, compared with 47% who would prefer to remain in the EU.

The findings will make sobering reading for all three major parties, which are at risk of losing support to the buoyant anti-EU party Ukip – now two points ahead of the Lib Dems on 10%.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...eferendum-poll

[Eraserhead]

Originally Posted by Happybunny

Please stop talking with fact and figures the EU is not in your hearts, and have a referendum and leave all ready.

The only potential advantage of leaving the EU for the UK is that the legislation out of Brussels is usually more sensible than that out of Westminster, and we'd have to follow it without complaint.

That is unless we want to torpedo our economy.

I'm sure most other EU countries increasingly want the UK out to quit our whining about it - but I'm also sure they'll be happy to have lots of skilled highly educated migrants who follow the jobs exodus.

[Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by Beeplance

Romney said he wanted to reduce taxes for the rich and increase taxes for the poor

He said that?

[Eraserhead]

Originally Posted by Happybunny

56% of Britons would vote to quit EU in referendum, poll finds

Given how much anti-EU propaganda is mentioned I'm not surprised that 56% of Britons are so ill informed.

[leekohler]

Originally Posted by Eraserhead

Given how much anti-EU propaganda is mentioned I'm not surprised that 56% of Britons are so ill informed.

OMG- is Britain the Texas of the EU?

[dime21]

On the subject of conservative ideals, has anyone had a chance to watch Atlas Shrugged? I had to read the book (all 1300 pages) in school a while back.

In Part 1, anyone who is very successful is treated as an enemy of the "norm" and either has their money or their competitive advantage taken from them, or both. False scientists are hired by the government to cast aspersions on any advancements that will result in a single company from gaining advantage. States with more competitive business climates are taxed more to spread their wealth among the states that are more stifling.

Those wishing to succeed based upon their own contribution, efforts, and skills end up leaving the US for a new destination to start up a new society where you are rewarded for your personal contribution.

Given the current Pelosi/Obama/Union and the "who me ...work?" catastrophe we have created, I found the movie interesting. I am surprised this movie and the 2016: Obama's America movie have not generated more discussion. I know if Michael Moore or any other liberal movie attacking conservative ideals came out, the press would be playing clips 24 by 7.

[Eraserhead]

Originally Posted by leekohler

OMG- is Britain the Texas of the EU?

Pretty much .