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Old Jan 16, 2013, 11:42 AM   #126
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Where did I say any of this? Stop trying to put words in my mouth. I'm just pointing out that you say you're willing to compromise but you can't really compromise if you take the majority of the other side's positions off the table before you even start.
Well when you put all of one side's positions on the table you have a non starter in the first place.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 12:14 PM   #127
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I'm willing to compromise, personally.

As long as banning handguns, semi auto rifles of any kind, and high cap are off the table.
This is more likely to be addressed through state legislatures (cf. New York's new laws) than Congress (at least this congress and the next one appear unlikely to pass such measures). And I doubt you'd argue with states deciding on these issues for themselves?

I think top priority should be given to beefing up the NICS by making sure that felons, people under a restraining order/convicted of domestic violence and the mentally ill are put on the NICS database that is accessible to all FFLS and law enforcement. The states must cooperate on this or it won't work. Right now the NICS is full of holes - it's not doing its job. We need to mandate that institutions and agencies submit accurate data to this database in a timely manner.

This step is so obvious that it should be done by Congress and the states NOW, before we even talk about anything else. I can't see why any reasonable person would oppose this.

I also think that registration of handguns and semi-autos would make the NICS much more effective - if you fall into one of the prohibited categories (such as being convicted of a felony or being adjudicated mentally defective) your registered guns have to be surrendered to law enforcement - or legally accounted for as sold. I think this is an appropriate balance between liberty and security for society at large.
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Old Jan 16, 2013, 01:43 PM   #128
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This is more likely to be addressed through state legislatures (cf. New York's new laws) than Congress (at least this congress and the next one appear unlikely to pass such measures). And I doubt you'd argue with states deciding on these issues for themselves?
Well it depends on which angle you're asking, it can be a yes or no answer.

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I think top priority should be given to beefing up the NICS by making sure that felons, people under a restraining order/convicted of domestic violence and the mentally ill are put on the NICS database that is accessible to all FFLS and law enforcement. The states must cooperate on this or it won't work. Right now the NICS is full of holes - it's not doing its job. We need to mandate that institutions and agencies submit accurate data to this database in a timely manner.

This step is so obvious that it should be done by Congress and the states NOW, before we even talk about anything else. I can't see why any reasonable person would oppose this.

I also think that registration of handguns and semi-autos would make the NICS much more effective - if you fall into one of the prohibited categories (such as being convicted of a felony or being adjudicated mentally defective) your registered guns have to be surrendered to law enforcement - or legally accounted for as sold. I think this is an appropriate balance between liberty and security for society at large.
Ya I can't really disagree with this. So long as we aren't going to have issues with this information leaking out to the general public.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 01:40 PM   #129
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I guess there are good reasons why guns aren't allowed in certain places, like the NRA HQ in Virginia.
Where do you see that? I searched and only found other people trying to call the NRA out about it. No news source or anything from the NRA as far as I saw?

About the gun shows - at least the ones here all have multiple police officers at the doors as well as patrolling the isles and they are armed. I think carrying is not necessary with so much TRAINED help right there. The reason we need it usually is because the police are more than 20 feet away usually.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 02:03 PM   #130
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Where do you see that? I searched and only found other people trying to call the NRA out about it. No news source or anything from the NRA as far as I saw?
I haven't seen anything either, though some people have commented on different sites that NRA employees aren't carrying inside the headquarters and that people are using gun cases to take their firearms into the on-site gun-range.

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...About the gun shows - at least the ones here all have multiple police officers at the doors as well as patrolling the isles and they are armed. I think carrying is not necessary with so much TRAINED help right there. The reason we need it usually is because the police are more than 20 feet away usually.
Sure, but it belies the argument that more good guys with guns make a place safer.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 03:19 PM   #131
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 04:17 PM   #132
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3) Gun owners are unwilling to compromise. I and a few other recognize the need for background checks, no sales to people with a history of violence or diagnosed mental illness, and maybe even mandatory training and safety courses for first time gun buyers. However many more feel that the Second Amendment should have no limitations, this includes no background checks, guns for mentally ill people, etc...some compromise is needed.
I do not see the division there. In my circles, although divided on other, more minor details, there seems to be no division on background checks or training. In fact, at our last shooting club meeting this was discussed and most people were supportive of background checks. The issue that is a sticking point for most is the length of time it takes to get the background check done. Some checks take up to a month. There needs to be a better network to run the checks so they can be completed in a better time frame. With today's computers, there is no reason these checks can't be done while you wait.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 04:23 PM   #133
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I do not see the division there. In my circles, although divided on other, more minor details, there seems to be no division on background checks or training. In fact, at our last shooting club meeting this was discussed and most people were supportive of background checks. The issue that is a sticking point for most is the length of time it takes to get the background check done. Some checks take up to a month. There needs to be a better network to run the checks so they can be completed in a better time frame. With today's computers, there is no reason these checks can't be done while you wait.
Where does it take one month for a background check?
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 04:24 PM   #134
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I do not see the division there. In my circles, although divided on other, more minor details, there seems to be no division on background checks or training. In fact, at our last shooting club meeting this was discussed and most people were supportive of background checks. The issue that is a sticking point for most is the length of time it takes to get the background check done. Some checks take up to a month. There needs to be a better network to run the checks so they can be completed in a better time frame. With today's computers, there is no reason these checks can't be done while you wait.
Part of the reason for the time can again be blamed on the NRA.... Sad truth is they will not let the ATF modernize and use computer systems. Instead those background checks still have to be done going threw paper boxes and what not.

So again the blame can sit on the NRA for a law they got shoved threw in the 80's.
Really we need massive modernazation in that system but we have to get a law from the 80's off the books and you know the NRA will fight tooth and nail to prevent that.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 04:31 PM   #135
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I do not see the division there. In my circles, although divided on other, more minor details, there seems to be no division on background checks or training. In fact, at our last shooting club meeting this was discussed and most people were supportive of background checks. The issue that is a sticking point for most is the length of time it takes to get the background check done. Some checks take up to a month. There needs to be a better network to run the checks so they can be completed in a better time frame. With today's computers, there is no reason these checks can't be done while you wait.
huh? what century are you living in? Ive bought a dozen guns the past 18 months and in most cases the background check takes 10-20 minutes.

Where in the hell are you that it takes a month?
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 04:33 PM   #136
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Where does it take one month for a background check?
The last BG check I had done took 18 days to complete. I have heard of longer. They told me it would take 1 to 4 weeks.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 04:35 PM   #137
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The last BG check I had done took 18 days to complete. I have heard of longer. They told me it would take 1 to 4 weeks.
what state do you live in?
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 04:43 PM   #138
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huh? what century are you living in? Ive bought a dozen guns the past 18 months and in most cases the background check takes 10-20 minutes.

Where in the hell are you that it takes a month?
You are talking about the watered down checks they currently do for firearms in some states...not all.

I am talking about a comprehensive new BG check that they want to put through.

True BG checks currently take time. Lots of it. They are not talking about running your name and seeing if you got a ticket in the county you are applying in. They are talking about much deeper checks.

If you have ever had a true BG check, you know how long it takes. If you think it takes 20 minutes, you didn't get a comprehensive GB check, you got a criminal past check in your state and in some instances only your county. There is a HUGE difference.

----------

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Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
Part of the reason for the time can again be blamed on the NRA.... Sad truth is they will not let the ATF modernize and use computer systems. Instead those background checks still have to be done going threw paper boxes and what not.

So again the blame can sit on the NRA for a law they got shoved threw in the 80's.
Really we need massive modernazation in that system but we have to get a law from the 80's off the books and you know the NRA will fight tooth and nail to prevent that.

I disagree. A national registry and background checks are two completely different things but when liberals try to pass bills to increase background checks they also include national gun registries. The NRA is against any bill that includes a registry but have stated many times that they are supportive of tighter background checks.


I feel the same way.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 04:51 PM   #139
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You are talking about the watered down checks they currently do for firearms in some states...not all.

I am talking about a comprehensive new BG check that they want to put through.

True BG checks currently take time. Lots of it. They are not talking about running your name and seeing if you got a ticket in the county you are applying in. They are talking about much deeper checks.

If you have ever had a true BG check, you know how long it takes. If you think it takes 20 minutes, you didn't get a comprehensive GB check, you got a criminal past check in your state and in some instances only your county. There is a HUGE difference.

I think you are mixing things up...the background checks for gun purchases access the FBI run NICS.

If you are getting a more thorough background check than that sounds like it is for something other than purchasing a gun.

Last edited by balamw; Jan 18, 2013 at 05:48 PM. Reason: fixed quote
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 05:01 PM   #140
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The last BG check I had done took 18 days to complete. I have heard of longer. They told me it would take 1 to 4 weeks.
A background check for a GWCL in Georgia is anywhere from five to 60 days, depending on county. Which requires fingerprinting, NICS, and GBI (or used to).

After you have a GWCL, you walk into a gun shop, show your GWCL, fill out a 4473, pay and leave.

If you don't have a GWCL, they perform an NICS check and you fill out the 4473. The NICS check doesn't take long.

Here in Illinois a FOID card takes about 60 to 90 days, State Police criminal check along with NICS. When you purchase your firearm, there is a waiting period which is 72 hours for handguns and 24 hours for rifles.

You said you are talking about a new comprehensive background check that they want to implement. Is that the same check you are going through?
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 05:05 PM   #141
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A background check for a GWCL in Georgia is anywhere from five to 60 days, depending on county. Which requires fingerprinting, NICS, and GBI (or used to).

After you have a GWCL, you walk into a gun shop, show your GWCL, fill out a 4473, pay and leave.

If you don't have a GWCL, they perform an NICS check and you fill out the 4473. The NICS check doesn't take long.

Here in Illinois a FOID card takes about 60 to 90 days, State Police criminal check along with NICS. When you purchase your firearm, there is a waiting period which is 72 hours for handguns and 24 hours for rifles.

You said you are talking about a new comprehensive background check that they want to implement. Is that the same check you are going through?
holy hell.....we in PA have it good...no "card" needed to buy a firearm...instant check that takes minutes, and no BS waiting period.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 05:08 PM   #142
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holy hell.....we in PA have it good...no "card" needed to buy a firearm...instant check that takes minutes, and no BS waiting period.
That is what I miss about Georgia, GWCL and 5 minutes in the store. Even without a GWCL (ccw permit), it is at most 20 minutes depending on how busy NICS is.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 05:14 PM   #143
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holy hell.....we in PA have it good...no "card" needed to buy a firearm...instant check that takes minutes, and no BS waiting period.
Pretty much how it is here also. Public school teachers go through a more through BG check than someone that wants to buy a gun.

----------

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Originally Posted by webbuzz View Post
A background check for a GWCL in Georgia is anywhere from five to 60 days, depending on county. Which requires fingerprinting, NICS, and GBI (or used to).

After you have a GWCL, you walk into a gun shop, show your GWCL, fill out a 4473, pay and leave.

If you don't have a GWCL, they perform an NICS check and you fill out the 4473. The NICS check doesn't take long.

Here in Illinois a FOID card takes about 60 to 90 days, State Police criminal check along with NICS. When you purchase your firearm, there is a waiting period which is 72 hours for handguns and 24 hours for rifles.

You said you are talking about a new comprehensive background check that they want to implement. Is that the same check you are going through?
5 to 60 days...so a week to 2 months. So yea, that's long. You support my argument.

Not all states have that kind of checks. Many have a local criminal check and you are done.

The problem is the time frame, not the check. I fully support in depth checks, but they have to happen in an acceptable time frame and NOT include the registry.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 05:21 PM   #144
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Pretty much how it is here also. Public school teachers go through a more through BG check than someone that wants to buy a gun.

----------



5 to 60 days...so a week to 2 months. So yea, that's long. You support my argument.

Not all states have that kind of checks. Many have a local criminal check and you are done.

The problem is the time frame, not the check. I fully support in depth checks, but they have to happen in an acceptable time frame and NOT include the registry.
My reply to you does not support your argument. The 5 to 60 days for a Georgia carry permit are separate from a firearm purchase. You do not have to have a carry permit to purchase a firearm in Georgia.

If I purchase a firearm in Georgia (without a concealed carry permit), I still fill out a form 4473 and the gun store performs a NICS check. I walk out the door in 20 minutes.

edit: The waiting period for a GWCL (concealed carry permit) of 5 to 60 days is not due to the length or intensity of the background check, it is the administrative process involved (i.e. items being mailed, printed, being mailed again, etc.)
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 05:29 PM   #145
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YouTube: video
Zero training in those clips. Typical propaganda.

Proper training



Stopping to load





----------

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Originally Posted by webbuzz View Post
My reply to you does not support your argument. The 5 to 60 days for a Georgia carry permit are separate from a firearm purchase. You do not have to have a carry permit to purchase a firearm in Georgia.

If I purchase a firearm in Georgia (without a concealed carry permit), I still fill out a form 4473 and the gun store performs a NICS check. I walk out the door in 20 minutes.

edit: The waiting period for a GWCL (concealed carry permit) of 5 to 60 days is not due to the length or intensity of the background check, it is the administrative process involved (i.e. items being mailed, printed, being mailed again, etc.)
You are missing the point. If they take away your current BG check for purchase and replace it with basically the same process for your GWCL, then the time frame will be increased. I am not against tougher, more complete BG checks. I am against having to wait a month to make the purchase.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 05:29 PM   #146
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Zero training in those clips. Typical propaganda.

Proper training
Very nice! I remember when my Dad and Grandfather showed me how to use a rifle for the first time.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 05:30 PM   #147
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Zero training in those clips.
Exactly. How many millions of guns are in the hands of people like that?


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Typical propaganda.
Yes, gun owners posting their gun fails on YouTube is propaganda.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 05:31 PM   #148
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Zero training in those clips. Typical propaganda.

Proper training

Image

Stopping to load

Image

Image

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You are missing the point. If they take away your current BG check for purchase and replace it with basically the same process for your GWCL, then the time frame will be increased. I am not against tougher, more complete BG checks. I am against having to wait a month to make the purchase.
Agreed. However, that will be negated in states like Georgia where the GWCL has already been performed.

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Exactly. How many millions of guns are in the hands of people like that?




Yes, gun owners posting their gun fails on YouTube is propaganda.
Most likely a very small percentage.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 08:17 PM   #149
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Another chapter in the never ending saga, Gun Owners are Their Own Worst Enemy.

Tonight's story takes place in my hometown on this very day ...

Quote:
Gunman told deputies 'law enforcement can not protect kids and I am going to protect the kids'
The Times-Standard
Posted: 01/18/2013 01:24:41 PM PST


An 18-year-old Eureka man is being evaluated for mental health issues after he was taken into custody at gunpoint this morning near Cutten Elementary School, carrying a shotgun over his head and ammunition in a camouflage tactical vest.

Humboldt County Sheriff's Office Lt. Steve Knight said deputies found the man after he had already passed by the front of Cutten Elementary School, and was north of the school on Walnut Street. Two deputies drew their firearms and “proned him out at gunpoint,” Knight said, telling him to put down the gun. The man, whose name has not been released, took several seconds and then put it down, he said.

The man was holding a 12-gauge Remington 870 shotgun above his head when deputies arrived. He was wearing a camouflage tactical vest loaded with sixteen rounds of 12-gauge buckshot and slugs. The shotgun was unloaded.

He reportedly told deputies, “I am on the way to the courthouse to make a point that law enforcement can not protect kids and I am going to protect the kids.”

Knight said the man has never been arrested before, and was not a person known to law enforcement.

http://www.times-standard.com/breaki...cement-can-not
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 08:23 PM   #150
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....The last BG check I had done took 18 days to complete. I have heard of longer. They told me it would take 1 to 4 weeks.
so just to be clear, the background check you said you had to undergo, the 18 day check, that wasn't actually for a gun purchase?

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Originally Posted by MuddyPaws1 View Post
.... If they take away your current BG check for purchase and replace it with basically the same process for your GWCL, then the time frame will be increased. I am not against tougher, more complete BG checks. I am against having to wait a month to make the purchase.
And do you have a source that shows that's what in fact is being proposed? Or is it that you're worried that it might be proposed at some point and you're voicing your opinion against the idea? It's not clear from your posts.
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