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Old Dec 21, 2012, 06:06 PM   #51
Glideslope
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Originally Posted by iMikeT View Post
As much as opposed to corporations owning a country (which is all ready happening especially here in the USA) but as an AAPL share holder, I'd get a piece of Italy!

My first order of business would be to kick Vatican City out of Italy and take back that square mile of land then open up a gelato factory in it's place.
Yea baby!!!
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 06:11 PM   #52
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Lets say that Apple builds computers that are designed the best way possible.
Are Apple computers crap after 1 or 2 years?

Let say you build a computer that is designed the best way possible.
Would your computer be crap after 1 or 2 years?

Lets say you bought a computer and used it as the manual explains.
Would it be designed well if it broke after 1 or 2 years?

Lets say you bought a computer from Apple and used it as it was explained in the manual but it broke after the warranty.
Would a company with kazillion money in the bank care for his costumers and help them out a little?

Now lets take a step back and try to research what is really the underlining problem that needs to be eliminated. (in order to make everybody feel happy sort of speak) I think patchwork isn't gonna make the problem go away so what else is going on?

Maybe we should start looking how the monetary economic system really works a little better in order to understand it better as well. And when I say start looking I mean not listening to your politicians, your parents, your teachers, your guru's, your friends and seriously not your television. Everyone is screwing over everyone else and let it be clear that I mean everyone incl. myself because..... Its the only way this system can work. (for as long as it will last)

Let people help you if that helps but please go research everything yourself as much as possible! Only then you will be as close as possible to what the truth may be.

A simple example:
If a car manufacture would build a car which would last almost a lifetime meaning build with a clean engine which could easily be replaced, materials thats bend back if they get damage, the least amount of parts etc. etc. The whole car industry would be death within a few years.

So again... 1 or 2 years does it really matter?
Warranty is a joke if the products are never designed to last long in the first place.

A little Wikipedia:
Planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence[1] in industrial design is a policy of planning or designing a product with a limited useful life, so it will become obsolete, that is, unfashionable or no longer functional after a certain period of time.[1] Planned obsolescence has potential benefits for a producer because to obtain continuing use of the product the consumer is under pressure to purchase again, whether from the same manufacturer (a replacement part or a newer model), or from a competitor which might also rely on planned obsolescence.[1]
For an industry, planned obsolescence stimulates demand by encouraging purchasers to buy sooner if they still want a functioning product. Built-in obsolescence is used in many different products. There is, however, the potential backlash of consumers who learn that the manufacturer invested money to make the product obsolete faster; such consumers might turn to a producer (if any exists) that offers a more durable alternative.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 06:25 PM   #53
marcoago
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Originally Posted by Chlloret View Post
No, it is not. Quite the opposite. You THINK you get two years warranty under European or Italian law, you do not. You DO get one year with Apple, or three years with Apple care. You get 6 month with Europe, after that 18month of hassle.
If Apple would really implement that law, it would be quite bad for costumers as they would loose half a year no care warranty.
6 Months? Maybe in UE or Spain. Here in Italy there's a 1-year warranty on every appliance, the 6 months term is applied usually on their power supplies and batteries.
Moreover, you get a 2nd year warranty (provided by the reseller): I worked on a retail company and what I can say it's not hard to repair your appliances on the second year. We accepted various broken Asus, Acer and HP laptops in their second year and they got fixed without hiccups.
Some companies (like Sony and Nintendo) provide a 2 year warranty by default, or at least you can call them directly without going to the store.
Apple got in trouble because the AppleCare and apple online store pages were misleading, inducing AOS customers to believe that Apple gives you only one year. By Italian laws it's an illusory advertisement, therefore ILLEGAL. Buying from the Online store, Apple, being the producer and the reseller at the same time, MUST cover 2 years.
And even if you're a company which sells used/refurbished products in Italy, you MUST provide AT LEAST a 1-year warranty.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 06:33 PM   #54
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I suppose everyone missed the major part here.
Apple builds computers now to not be repairable so this whole warranty is literally like the anti-christ to them.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 06:38 PM   #55
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Uh, they are already covering that fine by selling 16GB iPhones 5 at 739 ($973) over here.
Sounds low. Apple should raise the price.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 06:41 PM   #56
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Advertising a 1 year warranty when they are obliged to offer 2 years is misleading and illegal. Not really much more to say about that.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 06:51 PM   #57
Chlloret
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Originally Posted by marcoago View Post
6 Months? Maybe in UE or Spain. Here in Italy there's a 1-year warranty on every appliance, the 6 months term is applied usually on their power supplies and batteries.
Moreover, you get a 2nd year warranty (provided by the reseller): I worked on a retail company and what I can say it's not hard to repair your appliances on the second year. We accepted various broken Asus, Acer and HP laptops in their second year and they got fixed without hiccups.
Some companies (like Sony and Nintendo) provide a 2 year warranty by default, or at least you can call them directly without going to the store.
Apple got in trouble because the AppleCare and apple online store pages were misleading, inducing AOS customers to believe that Apple gives you only one year. By Italian laws it's an illusory advertisement, therefore ILLEGAL. Buying from the Online store, Apple, being the producer and the reseller at the same time, MUST cover 2 years.
And even if you're a company which sells used/refurbished products in Italy, you MUST provide AT LEAST a 1-year warranty.
Then I stand corrected and Italy got there own deal. The European 2 year "warranty" (really 6 month garanteed and 18 month warranty everyone tries to scirm out of) is in no way comparable to Apples deal. They go to one year, after that of course they provide the rest of the European deal, but since that means that the customer got to prove that the defect was there since the beginning, its worthless.
I have a very expensive Samsung Galaxy Tab, now a year and a half old, it got a vertical green line about a third of the screen to the right.very disturbing. It was 8 month old then. Samsung refuses to repair and the shop I bought it from (and has to provide the warranty) wanted to know, why I waited 8 month to report it. No dice.
Besides, the model is "totally outdated, just buy another one"

Apple on the other side, repaired my 4 year old MacBook free, it develloped a logic board failure, sometimes it booted, sometimes not, sometimes it crashed in mid flight. I did have no Apple care or any known standing with the store (normally I buy online, Apple Stores arrived just recently here).
Besides that I never needed service with Apple products. But that one time makes me feel good and Apple got one more happy customer.

Samsung lost.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpat View Post
Uh, they are already covering that fine by selling 16GB iPhones 5 at 739 ($973) over here.
Not really, they selling it for about 600, like everywhere else. The rest is taxes. Nothing to do with Apple.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 06:55 PM   #58
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:05 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Chlloret View Post
Then I stand corrected and Italy got there own deal. The European 2 year "warranty" (really 6 month garanteed and 18 month warranty everyone tries to scirm out of) is in no way comparable to Apples deal. They go to one year, after that of course they provide the rest of the European deal, but since that means that the customer got to prove that the defect was there since the beginning, its worthless.
I have a very expensive Samsung Galaxy Tab, now a year and a half old, it got a vertical green line about a third of the screen to the right.very disturbing. It was 8 month old then. Samsung refuses to repair and the shop I bought it from (and has to provide the warranty) wanted to know, why I waited 8 month to report it. No dice.
Besides, the model is "totally outdated, just buy another one"

Apple on the other side, repaired my 4 year old MacBook free, it develloped a logic board failure, sometimes it booted, sometimes not, sometimes it crashed in mid flight. I did have no Apple care or any known standing with the store (normally I buy online, Apple Stores arrived just recently here).
Besides that I never needed service with Apple products. But that one time makes me feel good and Apple got one more happy customer.

Samsung lost.

----------



Not really, they selling it for about 600, like everywhere else. The rest is taxes. Nothing to do with Apple.

Great and I had/have a 17 MBP with an acknowledged graphics card issue that went south of the border and could not get fixed. 3K out the pocket for a defect. Battery that bent the chassis, once fixed, second time ignored by a **** here in Germany (Apple Rep), even though it was under extended recall.

Got Mac Mini had same **** store say they fixed it 3 times for faulty graphics only to be found out a year later just before the warranty (then bought apple care), that the store never did a thing but just kept giving me back the machine. At least Apple store changed Main board in mini, but I have a 17 I never got to use and was supposed to be my consulting computer dead. Absolutely no excuses for that on such a premium product and this is why we need something to step in.

Like it or not even those who have a decent income and invest in a product at times need a sort of big brother to keep things in check.

Ask me about VIP problems on Icloud server in my mail box and how Apple has no support for this.

What about various other issues they offer no support.

Seriously wake the Frick up and try and put some logic to all this.

I so like their products, and agree the solutions they often offer simply trump what anyone else has to offer. But you can take that fan boy sausage out your backdoor because it is helping no one when they don't stand behind their products.

When we all win and stay in the game fairly then we all prosper.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:09 PM   #60
Chlloret
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Originally Posted by DerSnap View Post
I suppose everyone missed the major part here.
Apple builds computers now to not be repairable so this whole warranty is literally like the anti-christ to them.
Well, that must not be bad. A friend at work broke her iPad2, just over a year old, by putting it under the seat on her scooter with some other items and it cracked the screen.
The pad was working, but a crack going over a quarter of the screen is not too nice.
She went to the Apple Store in Barcelona Center (she did not buy the iPad there, nor did she have the original bill from her purchase in London) fully expecting to pay for a repair. The "genius" there looked at it, cloned the iPad to a computer there, resetted her iPad and erased it compleatly, went in the back, came back with a new iPad2, synced the backup on to it and erased the data from his computer. With a smile and "have a nice day" she was on her way, not paying a penny, checking her mail in the nearby starbucks 15 mins later.

This is not a joke, that happend, not even 5 weeks ago.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:11 PM   #61
ikir
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Originally Posted by Marcus-k View Post
Apple claimed there was only one year of warranty if you didn't get Applecare, which of course was completely wrong.
Nope it is not, since second year is only if:
-The problem is not because product is used, it must be born with this problem.
-You can have the second year only if you bought it as private
-You need to bring your invoce/bill
-You have second year only where you bought it

Apple had always did that, italian are just retarded and yes i'm italian too (sadly).
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:20 PM   #62
Chlloret
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Originally Posted by DerSnap View Post
Great and I had/have a 17 MBP with an acknowledged graphics card issue that went south of the border and could not get fixed. 3K out the pocket for a defect. Battery that bent the chassis, once fixed, second time ignored by a **** here in Germany (Apple Rep), even though it was under extended recall.

Got Mac Mini had same **** store say they fixed it 3 times for faulty graphics only to be found out a year later just before the warranty (then bought apple care), that the store never did a thing but just kept giving me back the machine. At least Apple store changed Main board in mini, but I have a 17 I never got to use and was supposed to be my consulting computer dead. Absolutely no excuses for that on such a premium product and this is why we need something to step in.

Like it or not even those who have a decent income and invest in a product at times need a sort of big brother to keep things in check.

Ask me about VIP problems on Icloud server in my mail box and how Apple has no support for this.

What about various other issues they offer no support.

Seriously wake the Frick up and try and put some logic to all this.

I so like their products, and agree the solutions they often offer simply trump what anyone else has to offer. But you can take that fan boy sausage out your backdoor because it is helping no one when they don't stand behind their products.

When we all win and stay in the game fairly then we all prosper.
First of all, that is a horrible concentration of bad luck. I use Apple products for a good 25 years, my company went totally Apple 10 years ago and we never, ever, had that kind of a problem. And we talking not 20 or 100 but thousends of computers, Laptops, phones and lately iPads.

You know, that you can complain when you got treated that way? If it was Apple, ig an Apple Store, complain strait to Cupertino, no joke, do it. They are VERY serious if your claimes are right. If it was a Apple Reseller (Gravis, Saturn ect) complain to Apple. You'll be amaised what they can do.

At work we have Apple care for the mobile devices, and it is, what the name says, Apple care(s) you register a complain, they send you the new machine, you send the old one back. Thats all folks.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:26 PM   #63
DerSnap
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Originally Posted by Chlloret View Post
First of all, that is a horrible concentration of bad luck. I use Apple products for a good 25 years, my company went totally Apple 10 years ago and we never, ever, had that kind of a problem. And we talking not 20 or 100 but thousends of computers, Laptops, phones and lately iPads.

You know, that you can complain when you got treated that way? If it was Apple, ig an Apple Store, complain strait to Cupertino, no joke, do it. They are VERY serious if your claimes are right. If it was a Apple Reseller (Gravis, Saturn ect) complain to Apple. You'll be amaised what they can do.

At work we have Apple care for the mobile devices, and it is, what the name says, Apple care(s) you register a complain, they send you the new machine, you send the old one back. Thats all folks.
Except there is no real place to complain to. Honestly being in IT with over 15 year consulting, but mostly high level networking I understand how some things work. Over all not too many complaints with them but some things are designed to be ignored.

The whole store thing is shocking to say the least but at least here in Dresden I won't have to deal with this **** headed bald fukc anymore thanks to a real Apple store opening. Still I keep my distance and have put off new MBP purchases because of this.

To be fair our 15 MBP from about two years ago is pretty good with no issue so far. Also out of its warranty so it might even be over 3 years old now.

Also still using iphones.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:32 PM   #64
mr666
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Discriminatory terms

What's with the ultra-conservative way of stereotyping people? I notice PC geeks (who oddly enough, love to butt into this forum) call Apple-philes "fanboys". Does that mean only males, and leaves out fangirls? Does it mean Windows-lovers are not fanboys? What are Windows lovers, fan-asexuals? Also, why do most under-30s use the term "retarded" for ignorant / uneducated? Isn't that a slur on people with learning disorders?
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:33 PM   #65
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Chump change.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:38 PM   #66
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I had an argument with an employee in the London (Oxford Street)
You are so privileged to argue with an Apple store employee. Here one can get tasered for that.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:42 PM   #67
Tech198
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crikey

That allot of $$$.

Why does Apple reckon they can "hide under the radar" ?
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:42 PM   #68
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OtherJesus

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iphoneclassic

don't know who wins gold medal for stupid racist comments.
Probably your knowledge of what lies out of your garden is just some old kinder-garden reminiscence
I was trying to be sarcastic about OtherJesus's comment. Probably it came out wrong.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:50 PM   #69
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So again... 1 or 2 years does it really matter?
Warranty is a joke if the products are never designed to last long in the first place.
I agree...

A recent and relevant example would be the case for the 2008 MacBook Pro with the faulty Nvidia 8600M GT chip on the motherboard. Quietly, sneaky Apple ended the extended support program for all customers who bought that machine on December 7th, leaving them out to dry. Some of those computers are barely 4 years old...! Apple's response? buy a new one!

Outrageous.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:52 PM   #70
Chlloret
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Except there is no real place to complain to. Honestly being in IT with over 15 year consulting, but mostly high level networking I understand how some things work. Over all not too many complaints with them but some things are designed to be ignored.

The whole store thing is shocking to say the least but at least here in Dresden I won't have to deal with this **** headed bald fukc anymore thanks to a real Apple store opening. Still I keep my distance and have put off new MBP purchases because of this.

To be fair our 15 MBP from about two years ago is pretty good with no issue so far. Also out of its warranty so it might even be over 3 years old now.

Also still using iphones.
Well, 4 years ago, long before we had Apple stores here, we did have an issue with 15 MacPros. The dealer put them up, everything was fine but ALL of the 27" Displays had problems. Green corners, purple corners, lines, pixes errors, subpixel errors, you name it, each and every one of the 30 monitors had something wrong. Mind you, brand new. Some got changed right away, only to arrive with more errors.finally we had 12 working and flawless monitors, and on the other 18 where at least one, mostly more pixel errors. According to the supplier that was "normal" we did not think so. But the supplier came with documents that said, that up to 2 pixel errors or 4subpixel errors had to be accepted.
We then wrote (a letter, not email) to Apple, Infinity drive in Cupertino CA.
With pictures, a detailed account of what happened and a copy of the bill, after all only for this installation over 62000 Euros.

We waited 2 weeks and where working with the machines (we are still working with them) when a VERY friendly and apolegising guy from the system house came, with 18 flawless 27" monitors, free of charge (he left the 18 monitors we had with the errors) a letter from Apple, excusing themselfs and as a token a 15" MBP, also free of charge.

Granted, we do spend 6 figures with Apple but I still think that is good service.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:56 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by MacRumors View Post
authorities were not satisfied and considered additional fines and even a potential ban on Apple products in the country.
Who does this hurt besides Italian Consumers?

Apple should just say fine we wont sell products in Italy, and people will have to import them to get them at a higher price plus customs fees and no warranty at all.

I think the entire fact that EU has a mandatory Warranty Law is ridiculous anyways. It probably just raises prices in EU, I know if I had a product I wanted to sell in EU I would just raise the price to cover the mandatory Warranty. A Warranty that sounds like it would be hard to prove you deserve coverage from according to posts here about having to prove it was a defect at time of purchase.

The fact is, Apple has one of the best warranty programs I have ever experienced, every time I have a problem I make a Genius appt, and go to the store and in 15 minutes the replace my device, I have done this over 10 times with at least 5 different devices, some technically out of warranty, and one of which was 5 years out of warranty and i just had to pay $100 for the replacement, which is about what it would have cost me to get the 2 year extended warranty that still would have been expired.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 08:01 PM   #72
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And make no mistake, AppleCare and AppleCare plus are very good programs, very much a "no questions asked" service unless there are clear signs of abuse or damage that obviously caused the problem. I've had plenty of dinged and dented laptops taken in for repair without question because it was obvious that the dings and dents didn't cause the issue. In my experience, they have one of the best extended warranties of any company for anything.
There are plenty of people who have been rejected service because of such a dent, as well. I have never had this "no questions asked" service.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 08:04 PM   #73
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Its true though, Apple could just have Not sold devices in Italy. Instead, they chose "on their own behalf" to ignore the law from authorities, who denied Apples agreements...

Question remains, why did they ignore this and continue to push their product(s) if authorities were un-satisfied, and Apple knew this ?

Its like saying "don't stick your hand into fire, you'll get burn't", yet you do it anyway, to see yourself.

This could have come out better.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 08:08 PM   #74
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Well, 4 years ago, long before we had Apple stores here, we did have an issue with 15 MacPros. The dealer put them up, everything was fine but ALL of the 27" Displays had problems. Green corners, purple corners, lines, pixes errors, subpixel errors, you name it, each and every one of the 30 monitors had something wrong. Mind you, brand new. Some got changed right away, only to arrive with more errors.finally we had 12 working and flawless monitors, and on the other 18 where at least one, mostly more pixel errors. According to the supplier that was "normal" we did not think so. But the supplier came with documents that said, that up to 2 pixel errors or 4subpixel errors had to be accepted.
We then wrote (a letter, not email) to Apple, Infinity drive in Cupertino CA.
With pictures, a detailed account of what happened and a copy of the bill, after all only for this installation over 62000 Euros.

We waited 2 weeks and where working with the machines (we are still working with them) when a VERY friendly and apolegising guy from the system house came, with 18 flawless 27" monitors, free of charge (he left the 18 monitors we had with the errors) a letter from Apple, excusing themselfs and as a token a 15" MBP, also free of charge.

Granted, we do spend 6 figures with Apple but I still think that is good service.
I guess your 60+K trumped my 3K. Glad that got resolved for you.
I tried stores, emails, best I could find at the time and got nothing.
As I said the hard part was I moved from Toronto to Berlin so this was supposed to be my work machine to focus on my music. Of course low funds, new country, adjusting, etc, etc took its toll so I was SOL. I won't even get into the transition into Intel from PPC had its obstacles either.

Point is there was nothing I could get done to fix this issue, and I tried my best as a really depended on it. Actually sort of could still use it resolved as I have a ton of Music projects I worked on with this machine that I can't get to. Not because it can not be backed up, which it now is, but because the OSX levels have changed and not all software is the same. Low and behold why I prefer hardware analog gear still. Go figure eh?

I really don't want this to come across as a bad mouth on Apple or hate thing as I am far from it. Windows thats another issue though ;-)

Could use a new MBP but its just out of the question.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 08:19 PM   #75
throttlemeister
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Then I stand corrected and Italy got there own deal. The European 2 year "warranty" (really 6 month garanteed and 18 month warranty everyone tries to scirm out of) is in no way comparable to Apples deal.
No, the EU thing is the MINIMUM all countries need to comply to. Most do more.

Here in Holland the duration is specified as "reasonably expected lifetime of a product"; in case of a computer and other electronics devices ~3 years. In case of a washing machine, 7-8 years.

Burden of proof is rather simple: if the product isn't obviously damaged and the consumer claims it was used normally, it assumed the cause of the defect to be present at purchase if it seizes to function within the expected life and therefor required to be repaired free of charge. If the seller wants to get out of it, THEY will have to prove the customer is lying.

Mind you, warranty is provided by the SELLER, not the MANUFACTURER. As such, the limited manufacturer warranty is essentially for the seller. Of course in the case of Apple, it can be both the seller and the manufacturer. But as consumer you only have 1 party to deal with, and one alone: the company that sold you the product.

The fact you have 90 days of free phone support with Apple if you buy one of their computers is therefor pure service. Applecare should also be seen as a way of extending that service, not as warranty. It also makes dealing with the seller more easy if there are problems as they will always try to wiggle themselves out of things that cost them money, which makes it even better service from Apple.

There is a difference between being right, and being done right. Legal warranty can help you with the first, Applecare can help with the second by bypassing the seller and going straight to Apple.
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