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Old Dec 24, 2012, 03:07 AM   #26
aznxscorpion517
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Some good news and some bad news. Good news is I got Windows 7 installed with Boot Camp and I can tell you just by default the contrast looks good. It looks as good as the "Adobe RGB" color profile from the Mac side with all the shadow detail. Bad news is this still means there is still some color profile issue on the Mac side where it isn't able to let users create a profile with Colorsync that doesn't have some crushed blacks.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 03:13 AM   #27
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Some good news and some bad news. Good news is I got Windows 7 installed with Boot Camp and I can tell you just by default the contrast looks good. It looks as good as the "Adobe RGB" color profile from the Mac side with all the shadow detail. Bad news is this still means there is still some color profile issue on the Mac side where it isn't able to let users create a profile with Colorsync that doesn't have some crushed blacks.
Well I guess it is good news as it is a software, not a hardware issue and therefore is capable of being fixed via a software update. I suggest that you send in a report to Apple.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 08:57 AM   #28
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I downloaded your image and switching from the default "iMac" display profile with the "Adobe RGB" one I can see a difference in detail in the shadows. With "Adobe RGB" it looks as one expects and with "iMac" or whatever custom ones I made with ColorSync the shadows are a bit crushed. They don't seem as bad as your examples but it's still not very acceptable.

Do you experience better shadow detail when switching to "Adobe RGB" as well?
Did you manage to get any further in resolving the Crushed Black problem on the new iMacs? What size is the one you have?

I have been back to the Apple store to test the same monitor with sRGB images this time and to check the calibration settings on the iMac. There is a small improvment but the blacks are sill way out, this display does not seem to be able to show fine shadow detail and dark grey's. Changing to sRGB does not make any difference and changing to Adobe RGB make all of the color shift and display them completely wrong.

Does anybody have a new iMac which they can say the black shadow details and dark grey's can all be produced by the iMac screen without any Black Crush?

I am still waiting on TFT Central's verdict of the new iMac screen!
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 09:05 AM   #29
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Did you manage to get any further in resolving the Crushed Black problem on the new iMacs? What size is the one you have?

I have been back to the Apple store to test the same monitor with sRGB images this time and to check the calibration settings on the iMac. There is a small improvment but the blacks are sill way out, this display does not seem to be able to show fine shadow detail and dark grey's. Changing to sRGB does not make any difference and changing to Adobe RGB make all of the color shift and display them completely wrong.

Does anybody have a new iMac which they can say the black shadow details and dark grey's can all be produced by the iMac screen without any Black Crush?

I am still waiting on TFT Central's verdict of the new iMac screen!
The reference image has no black crush on my 2012 iMac. It would just be a calibration issues as multiple people have already told you...
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 09:32 AM   #30
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The reference image has no black crush on my 2012 iMac. It would just be a calibration issues as multiple people have already told you...
If this is true you should be able to see all of the detail marked in orange and red in the below picture. You should be able to see every last bit of the radiators zig zag. The red is the radiator behind the spinning fan blades and this could only be partly seen on the iMac in the store.

In other photos the brushed finish of aluminium case can only bee seen in the bright sections of the image. In the dark sections it is only displayed as black.

If you can tell me that all of this detail is very clearly visible then this Black Crush is only an isolated issue. Thanks

Detail You Should See


Reference Image
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 09:37 AM   #31
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If this is true you should be able to see all of the detail marked in orange and red in the below picture. You should be able to see every last bit of the radiators zig zag. The red is the radiator behind the spinning fan blades and this could only be partly seen on the iMac in the store.

In other photos the brushed finish of aluminium case can only bee seen in the bright sections of the image. In the dark sections it is only displayed as black.

If you can tell me that all of this detail is very clearly visible then this Black Crush is only an isolated issue. Thanks

Detail You Should See
Image

Reference Image
Image
Yes i can see everything, all shadow detail is great. I work in the printing industry so i know what black crush is. Like i said it just a calibration issue, im not sure why you are getting so worked up about this lol.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 09:40 AM   #32
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dont what to upset you but the detail that you have outlined is visible on my 13 MBP integrated graphics

you say you do not have a iMac but are basing you observations on the ones in the store ( which have been played with by countless sticky fingers ) try one first thing in the morning just after the store has open when the reference hdd image has been loaded

the shop lighting is far to green to evaluate any screen with
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 10:58 AM   #33
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Yes i can see everything, all shadow detail is great. I work in the printing industry so i know what black crush is. Like i said it just a calibration issue, im not sure why you are getting so worked up about this lol.
There is no way I can use the screen if the monitor is like the one in the store. If the blacks were that far out it would be hard to correct with a calibration tool without effecting the rest of the displays properties. There is only so much you can do with a calibration tool, the better the base image the better the result. I think the iMac in the store had a faulty screen, you are only going to spot it in high contrast images which Apple does not have in it's preview library Its done for a reason I suppose!

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dont what to upset you but the detail that you have outlined is visible on my 13 MBP integrated graphics

you say you do not have a iMac but are basing you observations on the ones in the store ( which have been played with by countless sticky fingers ) try one first thing in the morning just after the store has open when the reference hdd image has been loaded

the shop lighting is far to green to evaluate any screen with
I loaded the default calibration settings then changed the value from iMac to sRGB which made no difference and on two occasions the store iMac performed the same. I hope that when I come to order in a month or so that the iMac production line is up and running with less errors and better factory calibrations.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 11:10 AM   #34
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There is no way I can use the screen if the monitor is like the one in the store. If the blacks were that far out it would be hard to correct with a calibration tool without effecting the rest of the displays properties. There is only so much you can do with a calibration tool, the better the base image the better the result. I think the iMac in the store had a faulty screen, you are only going to spot it in high contrast images which Apple does not have in it's preview library Its done for a reason I suppose!


I don't mean to offend but have you ever used something like an Xrite to calibrate a monitor? You can calibrate almost any panel to an ISO standard.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 11:59 AM   #35
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I don't mean to offend but have you ever used something like an Xrite to calibrate a monitor? You can calibrate almost any panel to an ISO standard.
Every calibration tool I have used in the past just changes RBG, Contrast & Brightness, although brightness and contrast to me is not so important. With the iMac it looks like you have to start messing around with the gamma settings.

To be honest I don't even know how this stuff even works on the iMac. I have never had to mess around too much with my monitors because they just work out of the box with factory calibration. For better color accuracy and white point a calibration tool can be used simple. No loss in shadow detail etc etc. This just point's to faulty hardware and setup imo and for me it should never be like that, especially not at that price. When your S3 phone can perform better you know their is something wrong here.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 10:18 PM   #36
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I downloaded the reference pic and looked at it using the factory display profile. Yes, it looks looks like crap. There is significant black crush and greyscale in deficient in blue making everything appear yellowish.

I then switched back to my custom icc profile created using an X-rite colorimeter. Blacks appear to have a nice gradient with subtle details present and whites are white. This leads me to conclude that the factory default profile is crap. Nice display in hardware, terrible calibration in software profile.

This is NOT surprising when you consider other industries. The most high end TV displays you can buy are tweaked for show room floors, not for accuracy. Really black blacks, over saturated colors, and blown out contrast have been proven to catch people's eyes and sell more TVs. I'm guessing Apple is no stranger to this strategy when it comes to their displays. The over saturated colors in iPhone photos would suggest they're very familiar with the strategy.
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Old Jan 3, 2013, 10:57 PM   #37
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I downloaded the reference pic and looked at it using the factory display profile. Yes, it looks looks like crap. There is significant black crush and greyscale in deficient in blue making everything appear yellowish.

I then switched back to my custom icc profile created using an X-rite colorimeter. Blacks appear to have a nice gradient with subtle details present and whites are white. This leads me to conclude that the factory default profile is crap. Nice display in hardware, terrible calibration in software profile.

This is NOT surprising when you consider other industries. The most high end TV displays you can buy are tweaked for show room floors, not for accuracy. Really black blacks, over saturated colors, and blown out contrast have been proven to catch people's eyes and sell more TVs. I'm guessing Apple is no stranger to this strategy when it comes to their displays. The over saturated colors in iPhone photos would suggest they're very familiar with the strategy.
Bingo.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 04:02 AM   #38
aznxscorpion517
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Since you asked...I have the 27in iMac 2012.

I have in a way fixed my issue with the crushed blacks but I had to use a hardware calibrator. A friend let me use his ColorMunki and I just bought a Spyder4Pro.

Although what upset me is that I wasn't able to create my own profile without crushed blacks using Apple's ColorSync software, which I'd used on my 5 year old MacBookPro with no issues. Either way it is definitely a software issue and not hardware. Which is good but still disappointing.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 09:06 AM   #39
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Hi there, i was at my local apple store, and i used the new iMac 27" i5 660M, i tried to open the photo posted here and it was absolutely fantastic and there was no black crush, the profile was iMac though.
it is really a beautiful device,, i am still waiting my BTO, although they have some base config in stock.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 09:32 AM   #40
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Using the factory preset calibration, I can see the detail in the dark zones.

Colours tend to be a little over saturated, but all of this can be adjusted using a calibration tool/hardware calibrator.

I'm knocking on wood though, because my Panel seems to be one of the few out there without image retention, massive backlight bleed, or atrocious yellow shifting.

But it does make a brief, annoying, clicking sound as it heats up (I think it's the adhesive, because if I press on the screen on the edges it makes the same sound).

I'll deal with it .
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 10:27 AM   #41
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I have this issue on my new 27 inch imac as well. I'm at work and I am able to compare it to my 2 yr old 27 inch imac. The new one is significantly different.

Here is a more formal test for the black levels on your computer:

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

If I look really really hard I can almost see something at 13. It's not obvious until 20.

On the old computer I can almost see it at 2 or 3, and it's obvious at 4.
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Old Jan 4, 2013, 11:25 AM   #42
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What was that Shakespeare play?

Oh yes, right, Much ado about nothing.

I just now switched between the Apple Calibration and my Spyder3Express.

Huge difference in the detail area of the example images. As in, black crush, no black crush.

It's all in the calibration baby!

PS: I do appreciate this thread. It served as a very illustrative touchstone on the importance of having a monitor properly calibrated.
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Old Jan 25, 2013, 09:22 PM   #43
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I 100% believe the new 27" iMac panel has a terrible, terrible calibration from the factory. That Dell computer image is a perfect example of it. And using the below black level test, I can't even see almost the first two lines of black squares using the default calibration!

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

After my calibration, I can see every square in that test image, with the brightness at 7 notches. That's 120cd/m2, 6500k.

Honestly, Apple should be ashamed of itself releasing these panels as it has. I've used many, many iMacs over the years, and the 2012 has the worst calibration I've ever seen. The difference between calibrated and uncalibrated is truly astronomical!

FYI, I used an i1 to calibrate, and I couldn't be happier. The factory calibration is "yellow" and crushes blacks outrageously.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 12:11 PM   #44
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I 100% believe the new 27" iMac panel has a terrible, terrible calibration from the factory. That Dell computer image is a perfect example of it
Finally people are acknowledging there is a real issue here and I am glad that it can be fixed easily, thanks WilliamG. When I went in to an apple premium reseller to poin out the issue he said that they would increase the brightness in photoshop to enable you to see the detail, good luck when it comes to printing buddy, cant believe how amateurish some of these people are. You have a machine which cost $3000 please learn how to use it.

Once my imac comes I am going to have to do some investigating as I have no idea how to do a calibration on an iMac. Again nice to know a good calibration is possible, maybe even if I am lucky they would have got the calibration fixed in the factory by now. It's just really is just very poor.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 12:22 PM   #45
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Calibration is easy on a Mac with a colorimeter. Plug in device, attach to screen, run software, -2 minutes later it's done.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 02:21 PM   #46
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Calibration is easy on a Mac with a colorimeter. Plug in device, attach to screen, run software, -2 minutes later it's done.
What calibration device are you using on the iMac? Normally I calibrate it through the displays osd and the iMac it is done throught osx.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 03:18 PM   #47
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I 100% believe the new 27" iMac panel has a terrible, terrible calibration from the factory. That Dell computer image is a perfect example of it. And using the below black level test, I can't even see almost the first two lines of black squares using the default calibration!

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

After my calibration, I can see every square in that test image, with the brightness at 7 notches. That's 120cd/m2, 6500k.

Honestly, Apple should be ashamed of itself releasing these panels as it has. I've used many, many iMacs over the years, and the 2012 has the worst calibration I've ever seen. The difference between calibrated and uncalibrated is truly astronomical!

FYI, I used an i1 to calibrate, and I couldn't be happier. The factory calibration is "yellow" and crushes blacks outrageously.
First, thanks for that lcd test page link!

Now, when you state that you have the brightness at 7 notches . . . is that taking it all the way up to brightest and then using the Shift+Option+F1 key x 7?

. . . . and where are you finding the 120cd/2m, 6500k information?
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 03:29 PM   #48
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Can someone who has a hardware calibrator just post a display profile file that the rest of us can use?
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 04:04 PM   #49
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What calibration device are you using on the iMac? Normally I calibrate it through the displays osd and the iMac it is done throught osx.
Not the same. Our eyes are absolutely awful at deciding white levels etc. I'm using an i1 colorimeter.

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First, thanks for that lcd test page link!

Now, when you state that you have the brightness at 7 notches . . . is that taking it all the way up to brightest and then using the Shift+Option+F1 key x 7?

. . . . and where are you finding the 120cd/2m, 6500k information?
No, I mean imagine the brightness is at 0 bars. Lowest brightness. Then I hit the F2 key seven times, and that's 120cd/m2. That and 6500k is the recommended calibration type, especially for accurate photography.

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Can someone who has a hardware calibrator just post a display profile file that the rest of us can use?
Doesn't work that way. What works for me might look awful on your display. Every panel looks quite different. Except they all have black crush. You spent this much money on an iMac. Go buy a Spyder or an i1 (I've had both and prefer i1 since it's a much more consistent device). You can use it on any display you own, even your TV. Consider it an investment. Your eyes will thank you.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 04:44 PM   #50
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Not the same. Our eyes are absolutely awful at deciding white levels etc. I'm using an i1 colorimeter.
What I ment was that there is no osd on the iMac so you cannot enter rgb values as you do on a separate monitor. I dont how this is done in osx or if it uses these same values.
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