Register FAQ / Rules Forum Spy Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Dec 21, 2012, 08:06 PM   #1
mrkramer
macrumors 601
 
mrkramer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere
Looks like another shooting happened....

Three people dead in Pennsylvania plus the shooter. But at least we have our right to bear arms. And more guns are definitely the solution...

Quote:
(CNN) -- A man killed two men and one woman Friday in central Pennsylvania, then died in a gunfight with state troopers, authorities said.
The first report of shots fired "at multiple locations" in Frankstown Township came in a 911 call placed around 9 a.m., Pennsylvania State Police Lt. Col. George Bivens said. As state troopers converged on the area, someone in a truck -- going the opposite direction on a two-lane road -- fired at two marked patrol cars.
The truck's driver continued driving and then "rammed ... head-on" into a different patrol car, Bivens said. He then got out of his vehicle and began firing at officers.
State troopers returned fire, eventually killing the truck's driver.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/21/justic...html?hpt=hp_t1

I'm not going to be surprised at all if it turns out this person obtained these weapons legally...
__________________
"Jesus was the first socialist, the first to seek a better life for mankind." -Mikhail Gorbachev
mrkramer is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 21, 2012, 08:18 PM   #2
Merkava_4
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkramer View Post
I'm not going to be surprised at all if it turns out this person obtained these weapons legally...
So what is your solution to the problem? Have the government go around and gather up the guns out of people's houses and dig up their backyards?
Merkava_4 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 21, 2012, 08:26 PM   #3
Ugg
macrumors 68000
 
Ugg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Penryn
Send a message via AIM to Ugg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava_4 View Post
So what is your solution to the problem? Have the government go around and gather up the guns out of people's houses and dig up their backyards?
That's a start.
__________________
Check out <Peter's family tree!
Ugg is offline   16 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:58 AM   #4
mrkramer
Thread Starter
macrumors 601
 
mrkramer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava_4 View Post
So what is your solution to the problem? Have the government go around and gather up the guns out of people's houses and dig up their backyards?
That would be an ok start. But maybe start with putting tighter controls on who can own guns
__________________
"Jesus was the first socialist, the first to seek a better life for mankind." -Mikhail Gorbachev
mrkramer is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:00 AM   #5
Sydde
macrumors 68000
 
Sydde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava_4 View Post
So what is your solution to the problem? Have the government go around and gather up the guns out of people's houses and dig up their backyards?
Glocke12 is entirely correct, the Gundamentalists are their own worst enemy. Whenever something like this happens, they circle the wagons and shout even louder, "because ... freedom", thinking the rest of us will accept that. But it seems we find the cost of freedom, buried in the ground, and we really are getting tired of it. Before too long the NRA's rigid dogma will undo everything it has fought for and we will start digging up your backyard and taking your guns. You might try the Ruby Ridge route, but there are a lot more level-headed Americans than there are extremists. Before you put a "... my cold dead fingers ..." sticker on your car, consider that in light of the steadily mounting body count, that could well become the real choice you have to make. Because freedom is not always the best option.
__________________
You got to be a spirit. You can't be no ghost.
Sydde is offline   7 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:22 AM   #6
NickZac
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydde View Post
Glocke12 is entirely correct, the Gundamentalists are their own worst enemy. Whenever something like this happens, they circle the wagons and shout even louder, "because ... freedom", thinking the rest of us will accept that. But it seems we find the cost of freedom, buried in the ground, and we really are getting tired of it. Before too long the NRA's rigid dogma will undo everything it has fought for and we will start digging up your backyard and taking your guns. You might try the Ruby Ridge route, but there are a lot more level-headed Americans than there are extremists. Before you put a "... my cold dead fingers ..." sticker on your car, consider that in light of the steadily mounting body count, that could well become the real choice you have to make. Because freedom is not always the best option.
Gun ownership in the US is higher than ever. But the NRA has not grown proportionately with it. And the posts of many gun owners on this forum show that the 'stereotypical' gun owner that is commonly portrayed is a myth, and gun owners recognize the problem. Polls have indicated slightly more than half of Americans don't want more gun laws...yet people aren't running to the NRA. The NRA bas become a driving force behind gun regulation. They feed a stereotype that many liberals have bought into despite there clearly being many moderate gun owners that have recognized the problem and want to take a holistic perspective towards solving it. What we heard today essentially sums that up. And neither the NRAs refusal to compromise or even look at the issue in whole, or the condescending attitude that many liberals display towards gun owners (not saying that is anyone in particular) is going to help the underlying issue which is the deaths of many people every year.
NickZac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 08:18 AM   #7
ugahairydawgs
macrumors 68020
 
ugahairydawgs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
The notion that you can stop violent people from committing violent acts by taking away one form of weapon is about as ridiculous as thinking you can stop drug use by making drugs illegal. If someone has evil in their heart taking guns away is not going to change that and that is the problem we must face as a society.
ugahairydawgs is online now   3 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 08:34 AM   #8
Ugg
macrumors 68000
 
Ugg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Penryn
Send a message via AIM to Ugg
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
The notion that you can stop violent people from committing violent acts by taking away one form of weapon is about as ridiculous as thinking you can stop drug use by making drugs illegal. If someone has evil in their heart taking guns away is not going to change that and that is the problem we must face as a society.
The 'evil in their heart' meme is cute. It's more suited to sunday school for five year olds, but...


How many times must it be pointed out that the US with its enormous gun ownership levels is the most violent country in the civilized world. Guns encourage violence, not safety.
__________________
Check out <Peter's family tree!
Ugg is offline   12 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 08:42 AM   #9
Moyank24
macrumors 68040
 
Moyank24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: in a New York State of mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
The notion that you can stop violent people from committing violent acts by taking away one form of weapon is about as ridiculous as thinking you can stop drug use by making drugs illegal. If someone has evil in their heart taking guns away is not going to change that and that is the problem we must face as a society.
But not as ridiculous as the notion that we need more guns to make ourselves safer.

I think we all agree that the tool is just one part of the problem.

The situation in Sandy Hook is an example of how the laws could have worked - he apparently tried to purchase guns but didn't want to wait. Had he not been able to access his mother's guns, who knows what could have been different?

Waiting periods, stricter background checks, closing the gun show loophole, and doing something to ensure that gun owners are more responsible with their weapons are just a few things that have the chance to prevent things like this - as well as accidental shootings and suicides.

And I really don't see the issue with banning high capacity clips and some of these higher caliber assault weapons. The NRA's complete unwillingness to budge and the ease in which they deflect blame is going to be their downfall. You would think responsible gun owners, more than anyone else, would want to do whatever it takes to ensure we're all safer.
Moyank24 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 09:28 AM   #10
2020mike
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: May 2012
I don't get the whole "ban high capacity magazines" argument at all. Honestly I think more damage could be done in quicker time with a 10 round clip.
__________________
iPad Air 16gb Wi-Fi,iPhone 5S 16gb
2020mike is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 09:38 AM   #11
Dr McKay
macrumors 68040
 
Dr McKay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Kirkland
Send a message via MSN to Dr McKay Send a message via Skype™ to Dr McKay
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
The notion that you can stop violent people from committing violent acts by taking away one form of weapon is about as ridiculous as thinking you can stop drug use by making drugs illegal. If someone has evil in their heart taking guns away is not going to change that and that is the problem we must face as a society.
Its true it won't completely stop it, but it will drastically reduce them, we used to have shoot outs like that in the UK before they started banning the weapons. Look at the western nations with guns banned, they have drastically lower rates of gun deaths than America. Each time a shooting happens the gun nuts chime in saying that wouldn't have happened if X had been armed, where does this end? Does every single person have to be armed to prevent gun crime?

I think its clear that the method of pouring petrol onto the fire to extinguish it isn't working.
__________________
If only I could be so grossly incandescent.
Dr McKay is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 10:18 AM   #12
mrkramer
Thread Starter
macrumors 601
 
mrkramer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2020mike View Post
I don't get the whole "ban high capacity magazines" argument at all. Honestly I think more damage could be done in quicker time with a 10 round clip.
It wouldn't do anything with this particular shooting, but it would help reduce the body count in mass shootings. When s shooter stops to reload it gives bystanders a brief time to overpower him. If I remember correctly that's how the shooting in Arizona a year or so ago was stopped, he was trying to reload and a bystander was able to stop him during that time.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
The notion that you can stop violent people from committing violent acts by taking away one form of weapon is about as ridiculous as thinking you can stop drug use by making drugs illegal. If someone has evil in their heart taking guns away is not going to change that and that is the problem we must face as a society.
It wouldn't stop it, but it would make a lot less people die when the violent acts do happen.
__________________
"Jesus was the first socialist, the first to seek a better life for mankind." -Mikhail Gorbachev
mrkramer is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 10:24 AM   #13
zioxide
macrumors 603
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
The notion that you can stop violent people from committing violent acts by taking away one form of weapon is about as ridiculous as thinking you can stop drug use by making drugs illegal. If someone has evil in their heart taking guns away is not going to change that and that is the problem we must face as a society.
It's a lot harder to massacre 26 people with a weapon other than a gun. There is no way that gun violence wouldn't be reduced if we started taking all of the guns off the street.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr McKay View Post
Its true it won't completely stop it, but it will drastically reduce them, we used to have shoot outs like that in the UK before they started banning the weapons. Look at the western nations with guns banned, they have drastically lower rates of gun deaths than America. Each time a shooting happens the gun nuts chime in saying that wouldn't have happened if X had been armed, where does this end? Does every single person have to be armed to prevent gun crime?
It's just a cop out excuse that the gun nuts like to use because they don't want to acknowledge that the real problem is that we have too many damn guns.

The fact that Columbine High School had an armed sheriff deputy who was a 15-year veteran of the force on campus and it didn't prevent 13 people from dying is proof that this argument is crap.

Quote:
I think its clear that the method of pouring petrol onto the fire to extinguish it isn't working.
Exactly. If you try to fight fire with more fire, you're only going to get burned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkramer View Post
It wouldn't do anything with this particular shooting, but it would help reduce the body count in mass shootings. When s shooter stops to reload it gives bystanders a brief time to overpower him. If I remember correctly that's how the shooting in Arizona a year or so ago was stopped, he was trying to reload and a bystander was able to stop him during that time.
Yup. That reload time is a possible window for a bystander to try to jump on the shooter and stop it.

Quote:
It wouldn't stop it, but it would make a lot less people die when the violent acts do happen.
You're not going to be able to murder 26 people with a knife in 3 minutes without any resistance like you could with an AR-15. 2 or 3 guys could pretty easily disarm a guy with a knife. A gun? Not so much.
zioxide is offline   4 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 10:53 AM   #14
chrono1081
macrumors 604
 
chrono1081's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Isla Nublar
This happened in Geeseytown. I know right where thats at and sadly I'm not surprised. The entire area is littered with crazies with guns. This area is insanely small too. Its pretty much just a road that goes from Frankstown mountain through Geesytown where if you blink you'll miss it and on to Canoe Creek.
__________________
Mac Pro (2010): 3.33Ghz Intel Xeon (6 core) - 24 GB RAM - NVidia Quadro k5000
Macbook Air (2010): 2.13 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo - 4GB RAM
chrono1081 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 11:18 AM   #15
Zombie Acorn
macrumors 65816
 
Zombie Acorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Pick up the Chicago paper and this will be just about every weekend.
__________________
--2.6 C2Q 4gb DDR3 GTX 260-Win 7--
--2.0 CE Macbook Alum-Leopard--
Zombie Acorn is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 11:53 AM   #16
Andeavor
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs View Post
The notion that you can stop violent people from committing violent acts by taking away one form of weapon is about as ridiculous as thinking you can stop drug use by making drugs illegal. If someone has evil in their heart taking guns away is not going to change that and that is the problem we must face as a society.
Hold on, hold on. You can't compare drugs with guns. People don't kill people with drugs, they kill them with the guns they can by at every gun store, convention or backyard. Also, this should not be about stopping violent people but to prevent them from becoming violent.

In relation to the war on drugs, if the government legalized all drugs but heavily regulated and taxed them, they will take the crime out of trug trafficking; it'll create a new legit market, new jobs and less people will be killed senselessly to get the money to buy the drugs or defend one's stash.

In relation to mass shootings, if the government would put more restrictions on gun purchases and ownership while putting more money in healthcare and education to prevent young people from falling through the cracks, you will diffuse the situation from both sides.

Will this stop every gun crime committed after putting this in effect? No, but it'll reduce gun crime to a manageable and bearable number while society can prosper intellectually.
Andeavor is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:04 PM   #17
webbuzz
macrumors 6502a
 
webbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
Pick up the Chicago paper and this will be just about every weekend.
Or look here.

http://homicides.redeyechicago.com/
webbuzz is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:30 PM   #18
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
Pick up the Chicago paper and this will be just about every weekend.
Why focus on Chicago? If you're looking for the worst U.S.cities you should look at ...

Quote:
Annual rates (per 100,000) of firearm homicides 2006–2007

New Orleans — 62.1
Detroit— 35.9
Baltimore — 29.7
Oakland, CA — 26.6
St. Louis — 24.1
Miami — 23.7
Richmond, VI — 23.1
Philadelphia — 20
Washington, D.C. — 19
Memphis — 18.4
Cleveland — 17.4
Atlanta — 17.2
Buffalo — 16.5
Cincinnati — 15.9
Kansas City, MO — 14.5
Las Vegas — 13.5
Milwaukee — 13.5
Jacksonville — 13.2
Houston — 12.9
Indianapolis — 12.6
Pittsburg — 12.5
Chicago — 11.6
U.S. City Avg — 9.7

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/wk/mm6018.pdf
citizenzen is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:32 PM   #19
DakotaGuy
macrumors 68030
 
DakotaGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: South Dakota, USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
Pick up the Chicago paper and this will be just about every weekend.
But doesn't Chicago have some of the toughest gun laws in the nation? You would think that would be the safest place in the entire nation.

The biggest problem with the whole assault weapons ban (or any ban for that matter) is that you don't keep them out of the bad guys hands. If some mentally ill person or criminal wants to do something they will find a way. The only thing laws like that effect are good law abiding citizens who follow the law. Yes you will keep them out of the hands of the good people with those laws, but the bad guys will still get them.

As far as this fantasy that some have that police should come knocking on every door to seize all guns from law abiding citizens I must ask are you serious? Could they even do that without changing the Constitution? What if people say no I want to keep my legally owned property? Do you support using lethal force on those people to get the guns? This is such a radical idea I cannot comprehend it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
The fact that Columbine High School had an armed sheriff deputy who was a 15-year veteran of the force on campus and it didn't prevent 13 people from dying is proof that this argument is crap.
Columbine took place during the last assault weapons ban. That should have stopped it.
__________________
Mac: 21.5" iMac Core i5 2.5 Ghz "Sandy Bridge"
iPad Air 16 GB WiFi - iPod Classic 80GB - LG G3
DakotaGuy is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:39 PM   #20
zioxide
macrumors 603
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Quote:
Originally Posted by DakotaGuy View Post
The biggest problem with the whole assault weapons ban (or any ban for that matter) is that you don't keep them out of the bad guys hands. If some mentally ill person or criminal wants to do something they will find a way. The only thing laws like that effect are good law abiding citizens who follow the law. Yes you will keep them out of the hands of the good people with those laws, but the bad guys will still get them.
Seems like restrictions and regulations are doing a decent job keeping them out of bad guys hands in Europe considering firearm crimes and deaths per capita are much lower there than there are in the US.

Quote:
Columbine took place during the last assault weapons ban. That should have stopped it.
Not if the guns used there weren't subject to the ban. That's just more proof that the ban needs to be more widespread.
zioxide is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:42 PM   #21
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Seems like restrictions and regulations are doing a decent job keeping them out of bad guys hands in Europe considering firearm crimes and deaths per capita are much lower there than there are in the US.
Apparently they're doing okay in Chicago as well, which is a mere 2 points above the nation average for the top 50 cities in the U.S., and not the shooting gallery some imagine it to be.
citizenzen is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:57 PM   #22
DakotaGuy
macrumors 68030
 
DakotaGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: South Dakota, USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Seems like restrictions and regulations are doing a decent job keeping them out of bad guys hands in Europe considering firearm crimes and deaths per capita are much lower there than there are in the US.

Not if the guns used there weren't subject to the ban. That's just more proof that the ban needs to be more widespread.
Ok well then get ready to re-write the Second Amendment banning all civilians from owning any sort of firearm and see how that goes for you. I don't believe ratification will be as easy as you think.
__________________
Mac: 21.5" iMac Core i5 2.5 Ghz "Sandy Bridge"
iPad Air 16 GB WiFi - iPod Classic 80GB - LG G3
DakotaGuy is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:58 PM   #23
webbuzz
macrumors 6502a
 
webbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Apparently they're doing okay in Chicago as well, which is a mere 2 points above the nation average for the top 50 cities in the U.S., and not the shooting gallery some imagine it to be.
The surrounding counties do not have the strict firearms restrictions that Chicago and Cook County have. There are three Municipalities that have magazine and clip restrictions.

The stats below are based on city population, not MSA. Which is what the CDC report used.

Chicago proper has a population of 2.7 million - 493 homicides (427 firearm related)
http://homicides.redeyechicago.com/

New Orleans has a population of 360,740 - 182 homicides, not broken out by type.
http://www.nola.com/crime/murders/


Quote:
and not the shooting gallery some imagine it to be
In certain neighborhoods, it is.
webbuzz is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:04 PM   #24
rdowns
macrumors Penryn
 
rdowns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Why focus on Chicago? If you're looking for the worst U.S.cities you should look at ...
Or at the other end of the spectrum, New York City at a 4.0. Apparently, their gun laws are working.
__________________
"Ignorance is not an excuse."- Goodell to Saints GM on Bountygate
rdowns is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:10 PM   #25
citizenzen
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by webbuzz View Post
The stats below are based on city population, not MSA. Which is what the CDC report used.
All that proves is that smaller populations have smaller numbers of homicides.

Who would have guessed?

IMO, the rate per 100,000 is a much more accurate measure.

YMMV
citizenzen is offline   1 Reply With Quote


Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yet another mass shooting - Navy Yard Shooting mrkramer Politics, Religion, Social Issues 243 Sep 25, 2013 01:20 PM
Top Free Shooting Game - Apple Shooting 2 for iPhone aurthurdenz iPhone and iPod touch Apps 0 Apr 1, 2013 03:42 AM
Shooting in Wisconsin Mac'nCheese Politics, Religion, Social Issues 129 Aug 8, 2012 12:43 PM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:12 PM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC