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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:12 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I wouldn't use that measurement. All it proves is that smaller populations have smaller numbers of homicides.

IMO, the rate per 100,000 is a much more accurate measure.

YMMV
[/QUOTE]

Not when you are comparing current gun restrictions and murder rate.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:14 PM   #27
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Not when you are comparing current gun restrictions and murder rate.
I'm sorry. I may have missed a key point here.

I was just measuring murder rate.

How are you combining gun restrictions and murder rate?

Please explain.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:19 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I'm sorry. I may have missed a key point here.

I was just measuring murder rate.

How are you combining gun restrictions and murder rate?

Please explain.
You did.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...7&postcount=21
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:46 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by webbuzz View Post
Not true.

I took no gun laws into account.

Those numbers merely reflect the number of gun homicides per 100,000 for each of those major U.S. cities.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:53 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Not true.

I took no gun laws into account.

Those numbers merely reflect the number of gun homicides per 100,000 for each of those major U.S. cities.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by zioxide
Seems like restrictions and regulations are doing a decent job keeping them out of bad guys hands in Europe considering firearm crimes and deaths per capita are much lower there than there are in the US.


Apparently they're doing okay in Chicago as well, which is a mere 2 points above the nation average for the top 50 cities in the U.S., and not the shooting gallery some imagine it to be.
Okay.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:00 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by webbuzz View Post
Okay.
Apparently I am two people now.

That's my superpower.

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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:07 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Apparently I am two people now.

That's my superpower.

You quoted his gun restrictions claim and used your CDC stats.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:14 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by webbuzz View Post
You quoted his gun restrictions claim and used your CDC stats.
I tell you what ... below is the sequence of posts [edited for brevity] you're referring to. Perhaps you can review it and tell me what point you're trying to make, because I am frankly befuddled by what you've posted up to this point.

Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DakotaGuy View Post
But doesn't Chicago have some of the toughest gun laws in the nation? You would think that would be the safest place in the entire nation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Seems like restrictions and regulations are doing a decent job keeping them out of bad guys hands in Europe considering firearm crimes and deaths per capita are much lower there than there are in the US.
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Apparently they're doing okay in Chicago as well, which is a mere 2 points above the nation average for the top 50 cities in the U.S., and not the shooting gallery some imagine it to be.
As I said when I first posted the CDC figures ...

Why focus on Chicago? If you're looking for the worst U.S.cities you should look at ...

New Orleans — 62.1
Detroit— 35.9
Baltimore — 29.7
Oakland, CA — 26.6
St. Louis — 24.1
Miami — 23.7
Richmond, VI — 23.1
Philadelphia — 20
Washington, D.C. — 19
Memphis — 18.4
Cleveland — 17.4
Atlanta — 17.2
Buffalo — 16.5
Cincinnati — 15.9
Kansas City, MO — 14.5
Las Vegas — 13.5
Milwaukee — 13.5
Jacksonville — 13.2
Houston — 12.9
Indianapolis — 12.6
Pittsburg — 12.5
Chicago — 11.6
U.S. City Avg — 9.7
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:19 PM   #34
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How much of the gun violence in the inner city is drug related?
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:26 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I tell you what ... below is the sequence of posts [edited for brevity] you're referring to. Perhaps you can review it and tell me what point you're trying to make, because I am frankly befuddled by what you've posted up to this point.

Thank you.







As I said when I first posted the CDC figures ...

Why focus on Chicago? If you're looking for the worst U.S.cities you should look at ...

New Orleans — 62.1
Detroit— 35.9
Baltimore — 29.7
Oakland, CA — 26.6
St. Louis — 24.1
Miami — 23.7
Richmond, VI — 23.1
Philadelphia — 20
Washington, D.C. — 19
Memphis — 18.4
Cleveland — 17.4
Atlanta — 17.2
Buffalo — 16.5
Cincinnati — 15.9
Kansas City, MO — 14.5
Las Vegas — 13.5
Milwaukee — 13.5
Jacksonville — 13.2
Houston — 12.9
Indianapolis — 12.6
Pittsburg — 12.5
Chicago — 11.6
U.S. City Avg — 9.7
You are welcome.

----------

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How much of the gun violence in the inner city is drug related?
A lot is drug and gang related. Unfortunately, too many kids are killed in the crossfire.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:30 PM   #36
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You are welcome.

----------



A lot is drug and gang related. Unfortunately, too many kids are killed in the crossfire.
And legalizing s good portion of those drugs will stop a huge amount of crime. These are the breakdowns as I see it, gang related drug, gang related territory, murder/suicide, basic armed robbery, mental issues, and workplace violence. Is the gun the problem or society in general?
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:47 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by MacNut View Post
And legalizing s good portion of those drugs will stop a huge amount of crime. These are the breakdowns as I see it, gang related drug, gang related territory, murder/suicide, basic armed robbery, mental issues, and workplace violence. Is the gun the problem or society in general?
I agree with the legalization aspect. But, where do you stop? Meth, heroin, and cocaine are all sold by the gangs.

Here is a Sun-Times article cross posted to a police forum. I can't find the original article.

http://www.policeone.com/drug-interd...xican-cartels/

A quote from the comments from above article.
Quote:
Criminals are criminals. These gangs, if they aren't selling drugs, will simply engage in other criminal acts (as they are already doing). Start producing more energy at home, draw back from some areas in the World in order to prioritize the safety of our own country. Of course, actually sealing our border, enforcing the law & using E-Verify would drastically help the issue as well.
Another article discusses two rival gangs working together to control a neighborhood, to sell heroin.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/7...ess-model.html

Guns or society? Most likely both
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:49 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by webbuzz View Post
You are welcome.
How trollish of you.



Since you appear incapable of clarifying you point, I'll look more deeply at those CDC numbers.

Look at the cities that surround Chicago ...

Detroit— 35.9
St. Louis — 24.1
Cleveland — 17.4
Cincinnati — 15.9
Milwaukee — 13.5
Indianapolis — 12.6
Pittsburg — 12.5

These cities average 18.5 firearm deaths per 100,000 residents. Chicago's current population is 2,707,120.

If Chicago's homicides were more in line with the average of these major cities in that region, one could expect an additional 189 firearm-related murders each year.

This could be seen as an indicator that the gun restrictions Chicago has put in place are having a positive effect in saving lives.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:50 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by webbuzz View Post
I agree with the legalization aspect. But, where do you stop? Meth, heroin, and cocaine are all sold by the gangs.

Here is a Sun-Times article cross posted to a police forum. I can't find the original article.

http://www.policeone.com/drug-interd...xican-cartels/

A quote from the comments from above article.


Another article discusses two rival gangs working together to control a neighborhood, to sell heroin.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/7...ess-model.html

Guns or society? Most likely both
Here is the problem, drug user goes to jail, meets thugs, gets out of jail, robs a bank, or shoots somebody for a fix. We don't help drug users, we treat them as criminals. What we should be doing is helping them get over their habit, then the drug dealers have no income.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:54 PM   #40
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Here is the problem, drug user goes to jail, meets thugs, gets out of jail, robs a bank, or shoots somebody for a fix. We don't help drug users, we treat them as criminals. What we should be doing is helping them get over their habit, then the drug dealers have no income.
Agreed. What do we do about the gangs?
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:56 PM   #41
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Agreed. What do we do about the gangs?
Gangs start because kids don't have a home life or parents. So start with the parents. Get these kids in school and give them something productive to do.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:57 PM   #42
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The NRA are right. Everyone in the US should be armed and free to shoot anyone who pi33es them off.

If they didn't have guns, they'd just jump in a car and run them over or maybe stab them with a blunt fork

More guns in the US = more shootings = less American's to buy guns so in a roundabout way the NRA might not be quite as backward thinking as their constant bleating about a 200+ year old constitution would have you believe.

O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:58 PM   #43
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Just ban guns already!! These deaths are totally unnecessary.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:59 PM   #44
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Just ban guns already!! These deaths are totally unnecessary.
The only way to ban guns is to shut down the manufactures. Otherwise guns will find a way in somehow. This would mean no guns for anyone in the world, including military.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:02 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by MacNut View Post
How much of the gun violence in the inner city is drug related?
Excerpts from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention [bolding mine] ...

Quote:
Gang Homicides — Five U.S. Cities, 2003–2008
January 27, 2012 / 61(03);46-51

CDC analyzed 2003–2008 data from the National Violent Death Reporting System (NVDRS) for five cities with high levels of gang homicide.

... the proportion of gang homicides resulting from drug trade/use or with other crimes in progress was consistently low in the five cities, ranging from zero to 25%.

Furthermore, this report found that gang homicides were more likely to occur with firearms and in public places, which suggests that gang homicides are quick, retaliatory reactions to ongoing gang-related conflict. These findings provide evidence for the need to prevent gang involvement early in adolescence and to increase youths' capacity to resolve conflict nonviolently.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6103a2.htm
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:06 PM   #46
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Excerpts from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention [bolding mine] ...
So what about drug dealer violence. Is that related to gangs or separate?
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:14 PM   #47
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The only way to ban guns is to shut down the manufactures. Otherwise guns will find a way in somehow. This would mean no guns for anyone in the world, including military.
I'll put it this way then. The death toll due to firearms in 2010 was 8,775 for the US. For the UK, it was 58. Since the US population is 5x bigger than the UK population, if the UK was as big as the US, their deaths due to guns would be 290.

8,775 vs 290. What is the difference? One of these two countries have banned guns.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:18 PM   #48
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So what about drug dealer violence. Is that related to gangs or separate?
Below is a link to a Fact Sheet: Drug-Related Crime from U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Statistic.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/DRRC.PDF

Look at the information on page 4. The report is from 1994, so an more up-to-date report should be found.

However, they say that the issue is hard to define. Homicides directly related to the drug trade are a relative small percentage (5-7%), though nearly half (48%) of the males arrested under the suspicion of homicide tested positive for influence of alcohol or drugs.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:23 PM   #49
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How trollish of you.



Since you appear incapable of clarifying you point, I'll look more deeply at those CDC numbers.

Look at the cities that surround Chicago ...

Detroit— 35.9
St. Louis — 24.1
Cleveland — 17.4
Cincinnati — 15.9
Milwaukee — 13.5
Indianapolis — 12.6
Pittsburg — 12.5

These cities average 18.5 firearm deaths per 100,000 residents. Chicago's current population is 2,707,120.

If Chicago's homicides were more in line with the average of these major cities in that region, one could expect an additional 189 firearm-related murders each year.

This could be seen as an indicator that the gun restrictions Chicago has put in place are having a positive effect in saving lives.
426 homicides by shooting is saving lives?

Your first CDC "study" used the MSA population of Chicago, as do the numbers for the seven cities you list above. Why are you linking to the City of Chicago population of 2.7 million?

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How trollish of you.

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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:37 PM   #50
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The biggest problem with the whole assault weapons ban (or any ban for that matter) is that you don't keep them out of the bad guys hands. If some mentally ill person or criminal wants to do something they will find a way. The only thing laws like that effect are good law abiding citizens who follow the law. Yes you will keep them out of the hands of the good people with those laws, but the bad guys will still get them.
That's why we need consistent laws across the country instead of 50 different ones. The reason why gun bans work in other countries is they are banned everywhere so if you want one you have to smuggle it into the country and there's a good chance of getting caught at the border crossing. Somewhere like Chicago has a problem because criminals can go buy a gun outside the city and they have almost no chance that they will get caught while bringing it in. Ban them nationwide, and the ban will be much more effective.
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