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Old Dec 22, 2012, 11:56 AM   #51
CalWizrd
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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
To be fair, if this is generally true what's the issue with making it compulsory?
I would certainly have absolutely no issue with that. I made sure to expose my children to firearms at a very early age, and taught them that which I had been taught in my childhood.

They grew up knowing I had firearms in the house, and there was never an issue.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 11:59 AM   #52
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Several of my close friends have purchased weapons for the first time this year, with concealed carry permits as well.

Gun ownership is definitely on the rise.
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Originally Posted by likemyorbs View Post
So you believe more guns are the solution, correct?
While he doesn't say anything about guns being a solution, thewitt does make the common mistake of overvaluing anecdotal evidence.

I know people who've bought guns for the first time, therefore gun ownership is definitely on the rise.

You've got to have better evidence than that.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:00 PM   #53
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Nearly everyone in rural areas takes hunter's safety courses sometime in their life, my parents put me through it before I could go hunting, I think I was 11 or 12.
Its not mandatory though. I have a slew of friends that never once took one yet own guns. Thats unacceptable in my opinion.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:06 PM   #54
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Its not mandatory though. I have a slew of friends that never once took one yet own guns. Thats unacceptable in my opinion.
Depends on the state.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:09 PM   #55
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Its not mandatory though. I have a slew of friends that never once took one yet own guns. Thats unacceptable in my opinion.
I don't think you will see an overall resistance to training children/first time gun owners to use and respect firearms in the gun community. Its when you try to make the training restrictive such as high fees and other forms of dishonest blockades.

Liberals would love to establish a license to own a gun and then hike the prices out of the reach of many rural people who actually need the weapons for hunting.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:11 PM   #56
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I'm hoping they realize that won't do anything and they actually need to put in place a real ban this time.

It's time for America to join the rest of the first world here in the 21st century.

We don't live in Somalia or Pakistan where people have to carry assault rifles down the street with them, although part of me thinks some of the right wants to turn this country in to something like that.

Time to move along and get with the times. It's not the 1850s wild west anymore. A little something we call the Revolutionary War.

That's what I'm hopeful for too. The gun nuts are very vocal but they are the minority. If the majority speaks up and shows we aren't going to put up with this ******** anymore, maybe we can get some real progress.
Rifles have roots in American culture dating back to 1775, not 1850.

Yes, America where we won our independence from an oppressive regime using rifles that were higher tech than the smooth bore muskets the British military had access to.

But so many uneducated people are blind to the history of the USA, and would force us to follow the path of oppression... Such as a ban that would require door to door search and seizure.

This guy here above is a prime example of why we need better schools.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:25 PM   #57
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If there's one thing I've noticed on this forum, it's that everyone is a liar until proven otherwise.

Your own life experiences seem to have no bearing on anything, anecdotal as it might be. If you can't cite a dozen web references than it just isn't true. I'd like to have $1 for everything I've read from "reliable sources" that was so agenda influenced as to be laughably false.[COLOR="#808080"]
Anecdotes prove nothing. If you don;t like to provide reliable sources to back your opinions, you don't have to post here.


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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
To be fair, if this is generally true what's the issue with making it compulsory?
Nothing. The gun nuts don't want it to happen though.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:27 PM   #58
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Anecdotes prove nothing. If you don;t like to provide reliable sources to back your opinions, you don't have to post here.
Thanks for making me fell so welcome, Lee.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:27 PM   #59
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Anecdotes prove nothing. If you don;t like to provide reliable sources to back your opinions, you don't have to post here.
Its funny that so many people have backed up my claims though isn't it?
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:28 PM   #60
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Thanks for making me fell so welcome, Lee.
Don't complain about the rules here and expect no response. You basically insulted the whole forum.


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Originally Posted by CalWizrd View Post
I would certainly have absolutely no issue with that. I made sure to expose my children to firearms at a very early age, and taught them that which I had been taught in my childhood.

They grew up knowing I had firearms in the house, and there was never an issue.
Same here.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:28 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
I am from a rural area, everyone I knew took the courses so they could hunt with their dads. Anecdotal perhaps, but they don't keep statistics on who takes the courses anyways.
Well, there's another problem we need to fix then.

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Originally Posted by Menel View Post
Rifles have roots in American culture dating back to 1775, not 1850.
That's great. Slavery had roots in American culture going back to before the revolution too but eventually we moved forward and outlawed that. Oppression of women had roots in colonial America's culture too but eventually we smartened up and realized they deserve the same rights as men.

Society has to change and progress with the times. The fact of the matter is that guns have become way too prevalent in our society and it's just not needed anymore. The vast majority of other Western countries have outlawed or severely restricted civilian ownership of firearms now. It's time for us to get with the times.

I'm not advocating for a full ban. I have friends in Vermont and Colorado who still have uses for their firearms, and no doubt there are similar people in Alaska, Montana, Wyoming, etc. But these people who own these weapons can accomplish the same things they do now with a simple hunting rifle. They don't need an AR-15 with a 30 round magazine.

Quote:
Yes, America where we won our independence from an oppressive regime using rifles that were higher tech than the smooth bore muskets the British military had access to.
This statement is irrelevant to this entire discussion. We have a military that has more firepower than many other countries militaries combined. No country is coming over here to invade us anytime soon.

Quote:
But so many uneducated people are blind to the history of the USA, and would force us to follow the path of oppression... Such as a ban that would require door to door search and seizure.
Oppression? Cry me a river. It's not cruel or unjust to suggest that in the 21st century normal civilans shouldn't need or have access to assault weapons.

Quote:
This guy here above is a prime example of why we need better schools.
Grow up. Your ad hominem nonsense isn't helping this discussion at all. And you might want to pick up a dictionary and look up the word "oppression."
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:34 PM   #62
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Liberals would love to establish a license to own a gun and then hike the prices out of the reach of many rural people who actually need the weapons for hunting.
What are you talking about? "Liberals" prefer to have the guns out there, away from the city, setting up the system to oppress country-folk is just more paranoia. And who actually needs to hunt? Seriously, almost no one in the country lives that kind of subsistence existence, and the few that do have more efficient ways to capture and kill things.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:46 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by CalWizrd View Post
I don't know what state thewitt calls home, but I know that when I took my CHL training in Texas several years ago (after having been shooting for many years prior to that), portions of the class included safety training, firearm familiarity training and firearms handling and firing competency testing. It is my understanding (although I have no specific references to cite) that this is pretty common in any concealed handgun licensing requirement.
He mentioned in other threads being a US citizen living in Singapore on a couple occasions. I'm not sure what US states have been referenced in his statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWizrd View Post
I would certainly have absolutely no issue with that. I made sure to expose my children to firearms at a very early age, and taught them that which I had been taught in my childhood.

They grew up knowing I had firearms in the house, and there was never an issue.
Your success in this matter is still extremely anecdotal. While it's possible to extrapolate from a smaller sample size, randomization and context are both extremely important. Better means of storage could have prevented some of these occurrences in the past decade. It's not like kids have obtained firearms through underground channels in any of these cases that I can remember. I realize that is also anecdotal, but these items were quite accessible.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:47 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
To be fair, if this is generally true what's the issue with making it compulsory?
To be honest Id have no issue with first time gun buyers being required to take a safety and orientation course prior to purchase.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:51 PM   #65
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Don't complain about the rules here and expect no response. You basically insulted the whole forum...
Here's my perspective on posting on this forum...

I see four classes of posts:
(1) Simply an opinion
(2) An opinion asserted as a fact
(3) One or more citations of items found on the web
(4) A truthful recounting of an experience for which there can simply be no citation found

For number 2, I certainly have no issue with someone asking for proof of the "fact"

For number 1, I (you, anyone else) is entitled to have an opinion on a subject. Someone may reply that they would like to know how that opinion was formed. At that point, I may respond with more info, or I may simply hold to my opinion. In either event, it is still my opinion that I have every right to voice without needing to demonstrate the sixty four thousand life experiences I have encountered in forming it.

Number 3 is pretty straightforward, although there always remains the potential argument over the validity of the source(s) given.

Number 4 is the category that I was specifically referring to. At my advanced age, I have experienced millions of interactions, real or questionable facts, activities in which I have engaged, etc. In all of these cases, there are things that one learns (hopefully). When I recount something from one or more of these past experiences, it is simply to inform or illustrate to one or more readers that, hey, this happened to me in my life. Maybe you find it interesting or informative, maybe you don't. What I don't relish is some forum member questioning the honesty or accuracy of what I have recounted. I can't offer proof of one of my life experiences... it's just out there. I have posted lots and lots of things in this forum. Some posters may find my posts credible, while some may not. Frankly, I don't give a crap. I am posting something which I feel might be worthwhile for someone else to read. Don't automatically assume I'm a liar because it was never reported by CNN.

Yes, if I assert something to be a fact, feel free to ask me where the proof lies. If i post what is simply my opinion, or recount something from my past which was not picked up by the national media, then get off of my case. You can choose to agree or disagree, or believe or disbelieve, but that's your problem, not mine.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:56 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by CalWizrd View Post
If there's one thing I've noticed on this forum, it's that everyone is a liar until proven otherwise.
Liar is an overstatement. Misinformed would be more accurate.

The internet has a wealth of information available to anyone who wishes to take the time to look for it.

Those who rely on anecdotal evidence are missing out on an opportunity to better inform themselves and the members of this forum.

I urge you and others to embrace the practice of providing reliable sourced material to back up your claims.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:02 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by CalWizrd View Post
Here's my perspective on posting on this forum...

I see four classes of posts:
(1) Simply an opinion
(2) An opinion asserted as a fact
(3) One or more citations of items found on the web
(4) A truthful recounting of an experience for which there can simply be no citation found

For number 2, I certainly have no issue with someone asking for proof of the "fact"

For number 1, I (you, anyone else) is entitled to have an opinion on a subject. Someone may reply that they would like to know how that opinion was formed. At that point, I may respond with more info, or I may simply hold to my opinion. In either event, it is still my opinion that I have every right to voice without needing to demonstrate the sixty four thousand life experiences I have encountered in forming it.

Number 3 is pretty straightforward, although there always remains the potential argument over the validity of the source(s) given.

Number 4 is the category that I was specifically referring to. At my advanced age, I have experienced millions of interactions, real or questionable facts, activities in which I have engaged, etc. In all of these cases, there are things that one learns (hopefully). When I recount something from one or more of these past experiences, it is simply to inform or illustrate to one or more readers that, hey, this happened to me in my life. Maybe you find it interesting or informative, maybe you don't. What I don't relish is some forum member questioning the honesty or accuracy of what I have recounted. I can't offer proof of one of my life experiences... it's just out there. I have posted lots and lots of things in this forum. Some posters may find my posts credible, while some may not. Frankly, I don't give a crap. I am posting something which I feel might be worthwhile for someone else to read. Don't automatically assume I'm a liar because it was never reported by CNN.

Yes, if I assert something to be a fact, feel free to ask me where the proof lies. If i post what is simply my opinion, or recount something from my past which was not picked up by the national media, then get off of my case. You can choose to agree or disagree, or believe or disbelieve, but that's your problem, not mine.
For someone who doesn't give a crap, you just spent a lot of time posting as if you do. No one os forcing you to read or participate in this forum.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:04 PM   #68
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What are you talking about? "Liberals" prefer to have the guns out there, away from the city, setting up the system to oppress country-folk is just more paranoia. And who actually needs to hunt? Seriously, almost no one in the country lives that kind of subsistence existence, and the few that do have more efficient ways to capture and kill things.
Hunting can actually help with overpopulation of species in the right circumstances, also if you raise livestock it is usually necessary to have a rifle to kill predators, just in case. Some farmers still let their cattle graze.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:11 PM   #69
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Hunting can actually help with overpopulation of species in the right circumstances, also if you raise livestock it is usually necessary to have a rifle to kill predators, just in case. Some farmers still let their cattle graze.
So I guess hunting people would be helpful as well? Oh wait...
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:30 PM   #70
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For someone who doesn't give a crap, you just spent a lot of time posting as if you do. No one os forcing you to read or participate in this forum.
I give a crap about the topics on which I decide to post. I do so because I feel that I might provide someone with some insight, or a different perspective on an issue than they might have previously held, or simply to try to inject a humorous comment if I feel it is appropriate.

Oh, and thanks for your in-depth reply to my post. I tried to explain where I was coming from... clearly to no avail.

----------

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Liar is an overstatement. Misinformed would be more accurate.

The internet has a wealth of information available to anyone who wishes to take the time to look for it.

Those who rely on anecdotal evidence are missing out on an opportunity to better inform themselves and the members of this forum.

I urge you and others to embrace the practice of providing reliable sourced material to back up your claims.
If there's one thing I have learned on this forum... it is that you have an astonishingly firm grasp on the banal and obvious.

When I rely on anecdotal evidence, it is anecdotal in the fact that it is something that I have personally experienced. I apologize for making the ridiculous assumption that I wasn't simply hallucinating at the time. Do I believe that something which occurs in my life will occur in exactly the same manner as in someone else's? Of course not!

However, when I simply recount something I am aware of because I have lived it, I don't need someone else discounting it as if it never happened.

Have a great holiday.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:41 PM   #71
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Well, there's another problem we need to fix then.



That's great. Slavery had roots in American culture going back to before the revolution too but eventually we moved forward and outlawed that. Oppression of women had roots in colonial America's culture too but eventually we smartened up and realized they deserve the same rights as men.

Society has to change and progress with the times. The fact of the matter is that guns have become way too prevalent in our society and it's just not needed anymore. The vast majority of other Western countries have outlawed or severely restricted civilian ownership of firearms now. It's time for us to get with the times.

I'm not advocating for a full ban. I have friends in Vermont and Colorado who still have uses for their firearms, and no doubt there are similar people in Alaska, Montana, Wyoming, etc. But these people who own these weapons can accomplish the same things they do now with a simple hunting rifle. They don't need an AR-15 with a 30 round magazine.



This statement is irrelevant to this entire discussion. We have a military that has more firepower than many other countries militaries combined. No country is coming over here to invade us anytime soon.



Oppression? Cry me a river. It's not cruel or unjust to suggest that in the 21st century normal civilans shouldn't need or have access to assault weapons.



Grow up. Your ad hominem nonsense isn't helping this discussion at all. And you might want to pick up a dictionary and look up the word "oppression."
Firearm bans are not the oppression I refer to, nor is it what our forefathers fought for freedom from. Pick up a history book. You could probably sufficiently educate yourself with the US Independence entry on wiki.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:50 PM   #72
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I give a crap about the topics on which I decide to post. I do so because I feel that I might provide someone with some insight, or a different perspective on an issue than they might have previously held, or simply to try to inject a humorous comment if I feel it is appropriate.

Oh, and thanks for your in-depth reply to my post. I tried to explain where I was coming from... clearly to no avail.[COLOR="#808080"]
One more time- anecdotes are not evidence. You can try to make them so, but they are not. Just because you say something is true, we're all supposed to believe you? Are you kidding me?

Now, if you don't like that, that's not my problem. Insulting the forum as a whole is not going to get you far.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:08 PM   #73
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Its funny that so many people have backed up my claims though isn't it?
My anecdote nullifies one of yours. The little kid of one gun owner I know got hold of one of his guns while playing and shot it, luckily missing his playmate.

That leads me to one of my concerns. Some of these school shootings (or guns brought to school) are kids getting access to their relatives' guns. But if the the guns are too secured, they aren't available for "defense," which is the main reason the gun lobby (NRA) is touting to have lax guns restrictions.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:53 PM   #74
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Firearm bans are not the oppression I refer to, nor is it what our forefathers fought for freedom from. Pick up a history book. You could probably sufficiently educate yourself with the US Independence entry on wiki.
So they fought for the freedom for 20 first graders to go to school and get massacred by a nut job?

What "oppression" are you referring to then?

Our forefathers fought for freedom from the oppression of the British government. This oppression (prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control) was the fact that they were being taxed without representation in Parliament. This is NOTHING like what's going on now.

Restricting access to assault weapon-type firearms is not cruel or unjust treatment by any means. I still believe in the 2nd amendment to a point, like I said in my other post. But, like most things, there are limits.

And stop trying to pretend like you're smarter than everyone else here. You're not. All that does is destroy your credibility and make you look like an elitist ass.

Last edited by zioxide; Dec 22, 2012 at 03:12 PM.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:39 PM   #75
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Lets be clear here,this protect my family stuff is bollocks.As regards burglary,there are two sorts,pro's who aren't going to turn over your drum when you're home,they'll be in and out with your baubles before you've even seen a problem.The other sort are desperate,possibly wired and possibly armed,they don't give a ****, your well practiced defence moves most likely won't effect them,even if you get a shot or more off that hits them they'll keep coming.You may have killed them but in the time it takes for them to die they can cause serious damage.Is that all your family means to you,to get stupidly offed to protect your flat screen? Even the desperate kind don't want to kill you rape your daughter/wife etc they want out with something of value.Try and stop them and things can spin violently out of control.Give it up **** can be replaced,lives not so much.
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