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Old Dec 22, 2012, 10:47 PM   #101
DakotaGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWizrd View Post
As are these.

Are you just trying to help me prove the case that semi-auto rifles can exist in a variety of shapes, size and colors?

Sure, they can look really evil. Functionality... they all operate the same. One trigger pull, one shot fired.
Yes they all work the same and can do the same things, but some feel that the color black makes them more effective somehow. SBGs!

As long as semi-automatic weapons are still available we will still have an AR-15 under a new AWB, however expect it to be missing a lot of parts so it looks more like those other rifles you show. I can't seem to find a picture of a AWB AR, but if I remember right it had to have a standard stock, shorter handgrip, no bayonet lug (why anyone would need that) and no flash suppressor. I suppose it is possible that some of the other assault weapons that can't be converted to a more conventional rifle would be gone for good, but it seems that people think the AR-15 will just go away with a new AWB. It will still be around unless they plan on banning all semi-automatics and I doubt that will fly.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 10:57 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by CalWizrd View Post
You obviously are quite wrong in your assumption. It still took one trigger pull to fire each round. The fact that that cockamamy yahoo was looping fingers into his belt or pulling on the fore stock while firing doesn't mean it's a full auto weapon. It would be a miracle for him to be able to hit anything he might try aiming at.
I wasn't arguing on that point at all. I thought you hadn't watched them because your response related to aesthetics. You commented on size, shape, and color rather than offering any insight on the modifications presented there.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 11:00 PM   #103
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I wasn't arguing on that point at all. I thought you hadn't watched them because your response related to aesthetics. You commented on size, shape, and color rather than offering any insight on the modifications presented there.
... and the reason I did that was because the primary issue that has everyone who really doesn't know squat about firearms making outrageous statements is that the styling of certain semi-auto rifles is based upon looking like full auto assault rifles, like the ones shown in the videos.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 11:06 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by CalWizrd View Post
Aside from any funding issues, I'd have no problem with a voluntary buy-back program for any weapons.

As for no longer selling semi-auto rifles... we're in different camps. You're talking about a large percentage of the total rifles sold... for a variety of reasons from hunting to target to defensive. Again, a semi-auto is nothing more than a particular firearm design... no built-in Satanic purpose.
Satanic purpose? Now we're definitely in different camps.

I don't attribute wacko behavior with guns to Satan, that's for sure. People are pretty inventive, so let them own their invented wrongdoing. Or let us call them out for just breaking the law if they can't cop to having done a wrong thing. If they're unable to comprehend what they are doing, then we're in mental health territory. The answer is surely not to close mental health facilities and then fail to provide outpatient care, group homes with supervision, etc. That seems pretty close to evil to me. Nonetheless it was the gun that fired the shots that killed the children at Sandy Hook school. Evil, sick, bad, stupid, whatever. No gun, no dead kids. No fast reloading gun, not as many dead kids.

Is there real evil? There's been plenty of way wrongdoing over the centuries, that's for sure. I don't know about Satan. As I believe God is in the better nature of mankind, I tend to believe Satan's in the less fine moments of mankind. Free will to pick the role we will play when we are adults, and civilized societies apply penalties for taking the low road. I pity the children who don't have a high-road role model though. For all the harm I think religions may impose on the world with their tribalisms, I don't think it hurts a kid to hit the Sunday school, temple, mosque or other house of worship long enough to learn the golden rule, some respect for humanity. I'd throw in respect for the authority of one's elders (parents,grandparents teachers, neighbors, the dog catcher ffs) while you're a kid in short pants too, but that's pretty old fashioned nowadays, apparently, so let's call that optional, even if doing so for three or four generations now may have been a really, really big mistake.

But yeah, I'd like to see all those quick-reloading rifles gone. I'm not an anti-gun person. I see some use for private weapons for self defense, for hunting, for putting down woodchucks, rabid critters and even the damn rabbits that squeeze under the fence and eat my lettuce, although I just curse and plant some more lettuce and put chickenwire over it. But see I don't think that fast reload capability is necessary for privately owned guns. And if one does not have that semi-automatic weapon, then it's not going to be used to kill a bunch of people in a few moments. That weapon won't be stolen or misappropriated for that purpose (or any purpose) because it won't exist.

If one doesn't mean to kill people with a semi-auto rifle, great, what to shoot with it then? Targets? Fine. Leave the guns and their ammo locked up in the club depot. Rats at the dump? Be a sport and use a single shot weapon, get your marksmanship tuned to expert. If you just want to hunt ducks, deer, squirrels, you don't need a semi-automatic weapon. My great-grandfather used a single-shot rifle and brought home a couple deer every year. If you have a semi-automatic rifle then I'd like it if the magazine held as few rounds as possible. How does three sound. If it would take four, then Mr. Duck has pretty much winged his way past your dinnertime that day anyway, no?
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 11:28 PM   #105
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Satanic purpose? Now we're definitely in different camps.

I don't attribute wacko behavior with guns to Satan, that's for sure. People are pretty inventive, so let them own their invented wrongdoing. Or let us call them out for just breaking the law if they can't cop to having done a wrong thing. If they're unable to comprehend what they are doing, then we're in mental health territory. The answer is surely not to close mental health facilities and then fail to provide outpatient care, group homes with supervision, etc. That seems pretty close to evil to me. Nonetheless it was the gun that fired the shots that killed the children at Sandy Hook school. Evil, sick, bad, stupid, whatever. No gun, no dead kids. No fast reloading gun, not as many dead kids.

Is there real evil? There's been plenty of way wrongdoing over the centuries, that's for sure. I don't know about Satan. As I believe God is in the better nature of mankind, I tend to believe Satan's in the less fine moments of mankind. Free will to pick the role we will play when we are adults, and civilized societies apply penalties for taking the low road. I pity the children who don't have a high-road role model though. For all the harm I think religions may impose on the world with their tribalisms, I don't think it hurts a kid to hit the Sunday school, temple, mosque or other house of worship long enough to learn the golden rule, some respect for humanity. I'd throw in respect for the authority of one's elders (parents,grandparents teachers, neighbors, the dog catcher ffs) while you're a kid in short pants too, but that's pretty old fashioned nowadays, apparently, so let's call that optional, even if doing so for three or four generations now may have been a really, really big mistake.

But yeah, I'd like to see all those quick-reloading rifles gone. I'm not an anti-gun person. I see some use for private weapons for self defense, for hunting, for putting down woodchucks, rabid critters and even the damn rabbits that squeeze under the fence and eat my lettuce, although I just curse and plant some more lettuce and put chickenwire over it. But see I don't think that fast reload capability is necessary for privately owned guns. And if one does not have that semi-automatic weapon, then it's not going to be used to kill a bunch of people in a few moments. That weapon won't be stolen or misappropriated for that purpose (or any purpose) because it won't exist.

If one doesn't mean to kill people with a semi-auto rifle, great, what to shoot with it then? Targets? Fine. Leave the guns and their ammo locked up in the club depot. Rats at the dump? Be a sport and use a single shot weapon, get your marksmanship tuned to expert. If you just want to hunt ducks, deer, squirrels, you don't need a semi-automatic weapon. My great-grandfather used a single-shot rifle and brought home a couple deer every year. If you have a semi-automatic rifle then I'd like it if the magazine held as few rounds as possible. How does three sound. If it would take four, then Mr. Duck has pretty much winged his way past your dinnertime that day anyway, no?
As far as the highlighted portion of your post... I couldn't agree more. I come from a different generation, where respect, honor and discipline were very different concepts than they are today. If I really got warmed up on the subject, I would start mentioning things like misguided psychological silliness concerning not wanting to diminish a students feeling of self worth by actually failing them when they fail a test, social promotions, etc. (started happening big time in the late 60's - early 70's). All this stuff, in my humble non-professional opinion, led to a gradual lessening of assuming responsibility for ones own actions, which, again in just my personal opinion, has dragged our culture down into the mud. But I won't get started on that!

As for semi-auto's... would you endorse law enforcement still maintaining semi-auto firearms, both pistols and rifles? You would have a hell of a hard time getting them to buy off on their elimination. And if they still exist in that realm, then they will inevitably exist outside of it.

I have mentioned several times in different threads about my thoughts on magazine capacities, but as I replied in another post... go ahead. 10 rounds seems to be the number bandied about. Modifications to the tool really won't prevent the looney tunes from going out on a binge.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 11:47 PM   #106
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Here is what an assault weapons ban AR looks like if anyone is curious. Can you pick out the differences?
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 01:36 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by CalWizrd View Post
~snip~

As for semi-auto's... would you endorse law enforcement still maintaining semi-auto firearms, both pistols and rifles? You would have a hell of a hard time getting them to buy off on their elimination. And if they still exist in that realm, then they will inevitably exist outside of it.

I have mentioned several times in different threads about my thoughts on magazine capacities, but as I replied in another post... go ahead. 10 rounds seems to be the number bandied about. Modifications to the tool really won't prevent the looney tunes from going out on a binge.
Well, I'm happy with the lowest number they can get for the magazine anyway.

As to your other point, it's a valid question, a real issue. I do know that wanting to halt sales of new semi-auto rifles is impractical in the sense that it's not just what I called bunker boys who will hang onto what they have now. There would be plenty of other people who will keep their similar arms and who don't especially mean to stay on the right side of laws in general anyway. Even loophole closure (which god knows should have been done already) is not going to stop further private resales and the odd or maybe not so odd stuff falling off backs of trucks and so forth.

I never want or expect law enforcement to come to their jobs less well armed than their average armed wrongdoers. So no, I don't know how this problem can be mitigated except by bans that exclude law enforcement, and then try to minimize the out of bounds sales and the fell-off-the-truck stuff. I would expect that law enforcement would see they have a vested interest in helping propose and then enforce ways to keep the leakage down to a dull roar.

Even if many law enforcement officials happen to be off duty sport shooting enthusiasts, they cannot be liking the incredible amount of civilian, often ill trained, potential firepower that's out and about, especially since we seem to be a lot more short fused with strangers than we ever used to be, even 20 years ago. I'm sure cops know this too, since I do, and so in their training have to learn to own and then restrain their own natural reaction to unprovoked aggressive speech and body language. So I'd be surprised to find any law enforcer who was willing nowadays to have a casual attitude towards discovering any breaking of a ban on weaponry that he finds leaking into civilian land. The fewer civilians packing that stuff, the better, and yes, even if they're his friends and he likes to hunt with them.

See it's not just criminals whose weapons threaten law enforcers or other total strangers. It's just people who are having a bad hair day and can lay hands on their weaponry. It takes one short-fused decision to use a gun to make a law abiding gun owner into a criminal. 20 years ago a short-fused jerk might throw you a bird or curse you out. Today, who knows, he might lose it and start shooting.

I don't think an armed society is a polite society. Not in the USA. I think it's pretty much fractured. We're not an armed society the way Switzerland is armed, or Israel. We're armed in random ways here and there, patchy, like if the Congo snaps to it sense sometime we're almost ready to take its slot in the anarchy hall of fame. And we have NO IDEA what it means to exist in a state of anarchy. Having a big pile of guns and food does not mean one wins the game. It's no game and there are no winners while anarchy prevails.

We may not mean to become criminals in how we use a gun. But we are not acting in public in the USA now with anything like the kind of self restraint that suggests that millions of us are emtionally capable of walking around with concealed weapons or semi-auto rifles in the truck rack. And this is not really so new, maybe ten years?, and not limited to how adults behave. Kids in the fourth grade act like this, sans the guns (for now), including some girls. The bullying (online and in person) is apparently rampant even with awareness of it and educator attempts to own it, name it, send it packing. I have never seen kids with chips on their shoulders at such young ages, 8, 10. Are they fake chips, pre-pubescent swagger? Or not? Such real hostility, so pervasive, so soon? . So add ten years and a gun and what do you have? Is this what we want for our children? I don't know. I don't think so.

Is it how it will be anyway? I don't know! This probably belongs more in Ugg's thread on extremism, as far as the societal commentary. But I put the remarks here because it weighs heavily in my consideration of gun control. 20 years ago I didn't give a damn about who had what guns, really. This is the boondocks so there's bound to be guns around, so what. There's times you can need one. But nowadays I wonder if I put a political bumper sticker on my car will I just get the car keyed in the town lot, or will someone shoot the sticker while I'm shopping, or will I wonder who's behind me on my way home, tailgating for no reason and is that a gun rack in the truck?

I surprise myself with these reactions because on a scale for paranoia from 1 to 10 I'm a "not awake yet, come back later." Plus, I know this area and I've lived up here for decades. But it's the ambience of the nation now. It's the talk radio and cable, it's the hostility of comments posted to net sites (not just political sites, any site, reviews of books, movies or canopeners for god's sake!) , it's the "what are you looking at" sort of challenge you can encounter just making eye contact with people.

One knows or learns not to make eye contact with people who are obviously disturbed, but really, if you glance at someone because you lightly bumped his hand while you reached for the door of the loose sodas cooler while on line at the grocery, should you expect a WHAT ARE YOU LOOKIN AT reaction? That happened to me the other day and I almost laughed because what came into my head was "I hope he's not carrying." Nice that I could almost laugh. Even better he was very likely not carrying. I broke my rule of never apologizing for no reason and said "oops, sorry." I felt intimidated. And felt surprised that I felt like that.

But this is really why I will like to see us as a country try to walk back from this whole armed to the teeth scenario that the gunmakers and their NRA board pals seem to prefer for the USA. I think it's not a scenario we can handle. We'd all need to dial a lot of stuff down first. Grow up, calm down, rediscover trust in each other as ordinary citizens. If we get that far then who needs a bunch of high powered rifles anyway.

Hope everyone has great winter holidays, my breads and cakes are finally all done, I'm outta here.. but let's all keep talking. The kids in our schools deserve some serious problem-solving effort by American adults on their behalf. I don't think the NRA board has it right. I don't claim to be right either, no matter if my opinions are strong. They're just me, and mine.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 02:22 AM   #108
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dont think so...if anything its been holding steady since the mid-90s/

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/se...hest-1993.aspx
Yeah guns are not at an all time low and most surveys show Americans do NOT want more gun laws, but DO want our current laws to be enforced better (Source, General Social Survey, 2008-2011)

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Perhaps the appalling performance of well-equipped US troops against insurgents armed with AK47s in recent years has persuaded many that a victory - or at least a stand-off - is achievable in a fight between rag-tag militias and government forces?
Umm, how does that affect gun ownership?
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 02:28 AM   #109
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In California, the AR15 is so watered down, there's no point in owning one. You can't have any larger than a 10 round clip; you can't have a button to touch with your finger to release the clip; and you can't have a folding stock. No fun in owning one.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 03:40 AM   #110
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Here is what an assault weapons ban AR looks like if anyone is curious. Can you pick out the differences?
Ironic things here are:

1) Bayonet lugs were prohibited under the AWB. For the majority of ARs that have bayonet lugs, you cannot even properly mount a bayonet.

2) Flash hider...does not hide flash. Just reduces it from the POV of the shooter.

Also, just wanted to add this. Many people here seem to feel that only cops should have guns. A large portion of LEO are pretty clueless about firearms. They get some training in their issue sidearm, and are required to shoot maybe a 100 rounds a year to qualify, and thats it. Your average gunowner will shoot at least 100 rounds A WEEK.

Just ask this cop about how qualified most are with regards to guns:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 03:54 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
Your average gunowner will shoot at least 100 rounds A WEEK.
Source? Unless you want to add a significant extra qualification to that statement.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 04:03 AM   #112
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Source? Unless you want to add a significant extra qualification to that statement.
Personal experience...I myself shoot close to 1000 rounds a month of various calibers....

The range I go to has the same shooters week in and week out shooting hundreds of rounds a month...

Also, 100 rounds is not alot of ammo to go through. Thats roughly an hour of shooting for me.

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Source? Unless you want to add a significant extra qualification to that statement.
hear what other shooters have to say for yourself...there are many threads like this on the internet.

http://www.handgunforum.net/range-re...nge-visit.html
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 06:21 AM   #113
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Ironic things here are:

1) Bayonet lugs were prohibited under the AWB. For the majority of ARs that have bayonet lugs, you cannot even properly mount a bayonet.

2) Flash hider...does not hide flash. Just reduces it from the POV of the shooter.

Also, just wanted to add this. Many people here seem to feel that only cops should have guns. A large portion of LEO are pretty clueless about firearms. They get some training in their issue sidearm, and are required to shoot maybe a 100 rounds a year to qualify, and thats it. Your average gunowner will shoot at least 100 rounds A WEEK.

Just ask this cop about how qualified most are with regards to guns:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0
Well the other thing is that I don't believe they were able to use a collapsible stock either because only one feature was allowed and the handgrip is what was kept. Of course there is also a 10 round mag limit, but the point I am making is that so-called assault weapons are only called that mainly because of cosmetic features. Take away cosmetic features and an AR becomes just another semi-auto rifle. So you say then ban all semi-autos... Good luck with that.

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In California, the AR15 is so watered down, there's no point in owning one. You can't have any larger than a 10 round clip; you can't have a button to touch with your finger to release the clip; and you can't have a folding stock. No fun in owning one.
My guess is that if we get a new AWB the California legal AR is what will be available to everyone. I'd still own one because I like the simple design of the rifle, but I agree many would not if a lot of the features are removed. Handguns cause A LOT more problems, but all the focus is basically on one rifle right now.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 09:29 AM   #114
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Personal experience...I myself shoot close to 1000 rounds a month of various calibers....
So it is just an anecdote.

Look it is probably true that serious shooters are better shooters than the police, but trying to extend that argument to assert that the average shooter is a serious shooter is going too far.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 09:35 AM   #115
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So it is just an anecdote.

Look it is probably true that serious shooters are better shooters than the police, but trying to extend that argument to assert that the average shooter is a serious shooter is going too far.
sigh....you are welcome to look at it how you want or in whatever fashion is convenient with your thoughts on the subject.

I stand by my assertion that the average gun owner shoots far more than the average LEO.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 09:58 AM   #116
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I stand by my assertion that the average gun owner shoots far more than the average LEO.
The average gun owner probably never shoots their gun.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 10:03 AM   #117
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I stand by my assertion that the average gun owner shoots far more than the average LEO.
You assert it.

We doubt it.

Without data, we are left with that.

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Originally Posted by Merkava_4 View Post
In California, the AR15 is so watered down, there's no point in owning one. You can't have any larger than a 10 round clip; you can't have a button to touch with your finger to release the clip; and you can't have a folding stock. No fun in owning one.
I thought the point was that it shot bullets.

Now I find out it's there to entertain you.

Personally, I prefer an iPad.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 10:15 AM   #118
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You assert it.

We doubt it.

Without data, we are left with that.

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I thought the point was that it shot bullets.

Now I find out it's there to entertain you.

Personally, I prefer an iPad.
Here we go again....what did calwizard say about people being called liars on this site if they don't provide data?

In any case, not even sure why I come here to post..the majority on this site have their heads so far up their asses you could tell them that the sky is blue and and they would ask for supporting data regardless of what they can see with their own eyes...
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 10:18 AM   #119
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Did they also take lessons on how to use said weapons make an educated vote? I doubt it. And that's the problem. Too many idiots own guns vote, and do so by emotion.
fixed it for you

Last edited by danpass; Dec 23, 2012 at 10:28 AM.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 10:22 AM   #120
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Here we go again....what did calwizard say about people being called liars on this site if they don't provide data?
Straw man.

I did not call you a liar.

I said I doubted your claim.

Try not to over-react.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 10:22 AM   #121
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fixed it for your
Luckily all of the "idiots" voted for the loser....or we'd really be worse off.

Seriously, what's your point in changing what Lee wrote? If you have something to say, say it using your own words. And in case you missed it this is a thread about guns, not about voters....
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 10:24 AM   #122
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You assert it.

We doubt it.

Without data, we are left with that.

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I thought the point was that it shot bullets.

Now I find out it's there to entertain you.

Personally, I prefer an iPad.
Well for me an AR is a great rifle if you enjoy range shooting or small varmint hunting. A California style AR would still be good for those things even if it was limited to a 10 round magazine and you had to use a tool to change out the mag. With that said, I generally don't feel a ban like this will do anything so that is why I oppose it. If you want to make any sort of difference then instead of just doing an "assault weapons ban" focus on the magazine and removal process like CA did. I'm not saying it will help much, but if a person can only fire 10 rounds and then they have to insert a little tool into a hole ( hmmm) to change out the mag it is likely someone would have the chance to jump a bad person using it to hurt innocent people.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 10:26 AM   #123
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fixed it for your
Is that even ENGLISH?

Changing some ones else's post is just like defacing a book, please use your own words, and arguments.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 10:27 AM   #124
Orange Crane
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
Here we go again....what did calwizard say about people being called liars on this site if they don't provide data?

In any case, not even sure why I come here to post..the majority on this site have their heads so far up their asses you could tell them that the sky is blue and and they would ask for supporting data regardless of what they can see with their own eyes...
Don't let the door hit your Internet griping ass on the way out.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 12:45 PM   #125
Eraserhead
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
Here we go again....what did calwizard say about people being called liars on this site if they don't provide data?
I have a lot more sympathy for Calwizard's position which was backed up by quite a few other posters, and was at least based on a vaguely reasonable sample of the community at large.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
In any case, not even sure why I come here to post..the majority on this site have their heads so far up their asses you could tell them that the sky is blue and and they would ask for supporting data regardless of what they can see with their own eyes...
Extrapolating your gun club's membership to the general case is hardly stating that the sky is blue. There is no requirement to be a gun club member to own a gun in the US.
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