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Old Dec 24, 2012, 03:45 AM   #76
Happybunny
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I just thought of another point which sets both the British and the Americans apart from other European nations.

Both Britain and the US have never had laws imposed on them by a foreign power, all European countries in last century have whether through war or treaty.
I think this fact makes it difficult for both Britain and the US to work with other countries like the EU or the UN. Unless they are in the leadership role, to them it's their way or no way.

Government by consensus is a total foreign idea to both Britain and US, hence the problems with the coalition in the UK
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 04:25 AM   #77
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Here's one thing:

The political parties have become expert at finding the furthest point they can move to the center without losing their bases and so they each have almost exactly half of the population's vote.

Even though I identify strongly with one side of that divide, neither side has big ideas. They're arguing about how to much to maintain what we have or to what extent it should be deconstructed.

In the past, there were movements that transcended either party. For example, there were progressive (in the sense of the progressivism movement) of both parties.

I think it takes a ground swelling of a society to have big ideas that are reflected in their politicians. And those ideas do exist to an extent. For example, the Tea Party has certain beliefs. My beliefs would be toward non-reactivity, intelligence, and looking toward solutions that have worked in the world previously and currently. Being scientific in our thinking and relying on experts more than the "rabble rabble" noise. That's sort of the type of general idea I talk about that could presumably be a societal movement that infiltrates both parties.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 05:32 AM   #78
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Both Britain and the US have never had laws imposed on them by a foreign power, all European countries in last century have whether through war or treaty.
I think this statement can be expanded .
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 06:26 AM   #79
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Government by consensus is a total foreign idea to both Britain and US, hence the problems with the coalition in the UK
What does being occupied have to do with consensus?
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 07:14 AM   #80
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I think this statement can be expanded .
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What does being occupied have to do with consensus?
The point I was trying to make was that if a country is occupied, you learn a certain type of humility. It also teaches a certain type of negotiation skills all which came in handy when after the war The European Coal & Steel Community was set up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europea...teel_Community

The European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) was a six-nation international organisation serving to unify democratic countries of Europe during the Cold War and create the foundation for the modern-day developments of the European Union. The ECSC was the first organisation to be based on the principles of supranationalism.[2]

The ECSC was first proposed by French foreign minister Robert Schuman on 9 May 1950 as a way to prevent further war between France and Germany. He declared his aim was to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible." The means to do so, Europe's first supranational community, was formally established by the Treaty of Paris (1951), signed not only by France and West Germany, but also by Italy and the three Benelux states: Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg. Between these states the ECSC would create a common market for coal and steel. The ECSC was governed by a "High Authority", checked by bodies representing governments, MPs and an independent judiciary.

You will notice that all these countries were occupied during or after the war.
It wouldn't have worked if one of these countries had said "My way or no way".

This was the start of peace in Europe, not by war but by consensus.



The guiding principle was Supranational union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supranationalism

The loser always learns the most valuable lessons.

I do hope that this has answered your queries, please remember English not first language.

I'm now off to celebrate christmas with my grandchildren
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 07:58 AM   #81
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Thank you, Professor.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 02:06 AM   #82
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... As we have seen, while the market does well under minimal government control, regulation is something that cannot be neglected....
I have a question. If the market really does better when left to its own devices and worse when fettered by regulation, is there empirical evidence that illustrates this? With my uneducated eye, it looks a lot like less regulation precedes disastrophes and more regulation leads back out of them. Financiers and speculators appear to be like Lamborghini drivers who will grudgingly adhere close to the speed limit, but take that away and expect to see burning wreckage every few miles down the road.

What bothers me is that we hear this drumbeat endlessly, less regulation is better, and are expected to blindly accept the validity because some guy in Vienna said it and he was really smart, it must be so. I, personally, need to be convinced, or I will have to start calling it dingleberries.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 03:22 AM   #83
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less regulation is better
we've tried that --didn't work out so well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodi...on_Act_of_2000
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 03:58 AM   #84
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I have a question. If the market really does better when left to its own devices and worse when fettered by regulation, is there empirical evidence that illustrates this? With my uneducated eye, it looks a lot like less regulation precedes disastrophes and more regulation leads back out of them. Financiers and speculators appear to be like Lamborghini drivers who will grudgingly adhere close to the speed limit, but take that away and expect to see burning wreckage every few miles down the road.

What bothers me is that we hear this drumbeat endlessly, less regulation is better, and are expected to blindly accept the validity because some guy in Vienna said it and he was really smart, it must be so. I, personally, need to be convinced, or I will have to start calling it dingleberries.
I'm not arguing that nor did I mean to give that impression and I apologize if I did. I think the market is better off with regulation, but not necessarily outright control such as planned economies of scale. That is, less but some clearly defined involvement.

If you are asking why I think regulation is important, my empirical evidence is the collective history of employer maltreatment of workers (http://coreyrobin.com/2012/03/08/lav...athroom-break/). Government became more involved with the workplace for this reason, beginning around 1887 (with quite a few mis-guided attempts that failed to protect workers). The coercion and maltreatment of workers has (what I believe to be) blatantly shown itself to be harmful to society.

Even today, I think it is naive to think that companies will treat all of their workers well. It is equally silly to view corporations as inherently evil, as many companies do great things for their people...but not all. Regulation is there to stop that.

Regulation can also specify certain workplace practices. This can prevent the SHTF scenario you spoke of, which has happened on multiple occasions.

So it is about administrative oversight, in fewer words. At least that is how I've come to view it.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 07:42 AM   #85
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Half of Europe is broke and the other half is a wasteland of social decay. Not the kind of place you want to live.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 09:17 AM   #86
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Half of Europe is broke and the other half is a wasteland of social decay. Not the kind of place you want to live.
Hahah. Can you list which countries are which? This should be humorous.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 12:34 PM   #87
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Half of Europe is broke and the other half is a wasteland of social decay. Not the kind of place you want to live.
It's obvious you've never been to Europe.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 01:55 PM   #88
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Half of Europe is broke and the other half is a wasteland of social decay. Not the kind of place you want to live.
Just an FYI ... the Top 10 of CNBC's The World's Best Places to Live 2012 ... (wastelands of social decay highlighted in bold red)

Quote:
1. Vienna, Austria
2. Zurich, Switzerland

3. Auckland, New Zealand
4. Munich, Germany
5. Vancouver, Canada
6. Dusseldorf, Germany
7. Frankfurt, Germany
8. Geneva, Switzerland
9. Copenhagen, Denmark
10. (Tied) Bern, Switzerland

10. (Tied) Sydney, Australia
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 01:59 PM   #89
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Just an FYI ... the Top 10 of CNBC's The World's Best Places to Live 2012 ... (wastelands of social decay highlighted in bold red)
Hey! We all know USA is #1!

Here's the thing- it's not, but it should be, given our resources.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 02:05 PM   #90
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Hey! We all know USA is #1!

Here's the thing- it's not, but it should be, given our resources.
I can't believe literally none of them are in the US.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 02:08 PM   #91
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I can't believe literally none of them are in the US.
You and I have both traveled. I can believe it.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 02:31 PM   #92
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I can't believe literally none of them are in the US.
Because urban/suburban life is not really what the US is good at. Smallish towns and slightly spoiled wilderness are mostly much more appealing than the cities, even though you might find IOKIYAR a tiring refrain.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 02:36 PM   #93
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Because urban/suburban life is not really what the US is good at. Smallish towns and slightly spoiled wilderness are mostly much more appealing than the cities, even though you might find IOKIYAR a tiring refrain.
I could not agree less. Rural life is even worse, IMO.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 03:00 PM   #94
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Because urban/suburban life is not really what the US is good at. Smallish towns and slightly spoiled wilderness are mostly much more appealing than the cities, even though you might find IOKIYAR a tiring refrain.
At least in rural Britain it's OK to be an atheist, and chances are no-one will care too much if you are gay or black.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 03:39 PM   #95
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Because urban/suburban life is not really what the US is good at. Smallish towns and slightly spoiled wilderness are mostly much more appealing than the cities, even though you might find IOKIYAR a tiring refrain.
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I could not agree less. Rural life is even worse, IMO.
Au contraire! I could not agree MORE!

Smallish town and slightly spoiled wilderness exactly describes my location (Humboldt County).

I love it and never want to return to "the real world".

And as a bonus, it's predominantly liberal, so I don't have to deal with IOKIYAR (which I had to look up).
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 08:06 PM   #96
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Half of Europe is broke and the other half is a wasteland of social decay. Not the kind of place you want to live.
The US is broke also...

I've never understood the 'looking down' on Europe (or any other nations, for that matter). Country is a nominal factor. That means it cannot be ordered or ranked because all are different, not better. There is much we can learn from them, just like there is much they can learn from us. If we forget that, then we become less 'civilized'. Europe isn't the US and the US isn't Europe. Heck, one European nation isn't another European nation either. We are different countries by choice because we all have our defining characteristics. But that doesn't mean there is nothing that can't be learned.

Right now we are on the verge of re-evaluating mental health in the United States. A few European nations have clearly excelled in this category. So why should we neglect them as "social decay"? I see significant value in their work.



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Just an FYI ... the Top 10 of CNBC's The World's Best Places to Live 2012 ... (wastelands of social decay highlighted in bold red)
IMO Helsinki should be in that list as should Oslo.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 08:09 PM   #97
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IMO Helsinki should be in that list as should Oslo.
Just shows you how competitive those wastelands of social decay are.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 08:26 PM   #98
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Just shows you how competitive those wastelands of social decay are.
I might also add that much of our government is modeled off of the "social decay" of the UK...so I guess that makes us "descendants of social decay"? Or would it make us having decayed as in the past-tense in that we've already completed the decay process to reach our half life?
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 11:18 PM   #99
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Au contraire! I could not agree MORE!

Smallish town and slightly spoiled wilderness exactly describes my location (Humboldt County).

I love it and never want to return to "the real world".

And as a bonus, it's predominantly liberal, so I don't have to deal with IOKIYAR (which I had to look up).
That's California. I would hardly count that as representative of most rural areas in the US.

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Old Dec 25, 2012, 11:23 PM   #100
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That's California. I would hardly count that as representative if most rural areas in the US.
Thank God for small favors.
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