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Old Dec 23, 2012, 05:27 PM   #26
Dmunjal
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Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Oh I know all of this. I'm just merely trying to point out to the poster who said employers are complaining that there are jobs and no one wants to take them that there aren't as many jobs as he thinks. I spent the past 2+ years working as a waiter and then a bartender so I'm quite used to working in a job I'm technically "overqualified" for. It does get annoying though when I have more qualifications than the person who's managing the place and they come to me to help them fix their problems.

And the fact that the seasonal jobs will be ending soon just means jobs will be even harder to come by in the next couple of months.



That's the plan. I'm not living on welfare here nor am I trying to excuse the people that do without trying to find a job. Just offering my personal experience to show that there still aren't nearly as many jobs as there are people still looking for work.

Yes, there are some parts of the country that have more jobs than others, but they majority of people can't just pick up and move halfway across the country.
I find this last comment intriguing. There are millions of people who immigrate to the US every year from another country for just this reason. Americans don't even want to cross a state boundary!
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 05:31 PM   #27
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I find this last comment intriguing. There are millions of people who immigrate to the US every year from another country for just this reason. Americans don't even want to cross a state boundary!
People still live in Greece when they can emigrate to anywhere else in Europe. Just saying.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 05:34 PM   #28
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This is what happens when you gerrymander your state districts to win elections. These candidates no longer have to appeal to both sides, and so they end up being far from center and completely unwilling to compromise.
This may well be at the core of the US political malaise.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 05:55 PM   #29
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For those of you in business, the section 179 equipment write off deduction will revert back to a max of $25K. If this is not rectified, small and medium sized businesses will be slammed with huge tax bills for tax year 2013. We don't even know what kind of paychecks to write in 2 weeks. FIX THIS!
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 06:00 PM   #30
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This may well be at the core of the US political malaise.
I beg to differ. You'd be surprised how quickly extreme positions can reconcile when they have no choice.

We've had options to get out of our mess these past few decades but we always chose to kick the can down the road because the Federal Reserve was there to backstop and other countries were eager to make up the difference in the bond market (reserve currency is a nice thing to have!) .

Take away those two options and our elected officials will act. It will be ugly but they will act.

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People still live in Greece when they can emigrate to anywhere else in Europe. Just saying.
The ones on pensions and living off the government are staying. The youth with no future are leaving.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 07:24 PM   #31
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Actually yes, a lot of them will. But we are talking about mostly skilled labor jobs, and not just any unemployed person is going to get one.
Which goes back to the "well there are millions of job openings" just being an empty statement that attempts to oversimplify the problem.

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People take jobs all the time that are below their education level. Any job is better than getting unemployment insurance IMO. The insurance is in place to help someone get off the ground not something that is indefinite or until they find that ideal job.
I don't know if you have a family or not but assuming you did you would actually take a job that paid less than what you get from government aid just as a matter of principle? I've seen this play out before and it rarely goes well. The longer the prideful hold out the greater the chances of them spiraling into a deeper hole that's even more difficult to climb out of. Taking unemployment insurance also frees your schedule to look for a job and go to interviews as well as take courses or other types of training that can hopefully make you appealing to employers.


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Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Oh I know all of this.
My bad, misread your post.


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Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
I find this last comment intriguing. There are millions of people who immigrate to the US every year from another country for just this reason. Americans don't even want to cross a state boundary!
On average it costs a few grand for a family of four to relocate to another state in a DIY fashion (obviously distance plays into this). Unless you've managed to guarantee a job in another state (which most likely will take at least one trip to said state as I doubt many employers would seal the deal over the phone) is it really wise to gamble a few grand to move to another state in search of work as opposed to staying local and spending that same money on food, rent, electricity, etc.,? For a young couple w/o kids or a single person it's not that big of a deal but for a family (especially if kids are in school) it's a lot harder.

Yes, many people immigrate into the U.S. out of sheer desperation for work in part because they are coming from countries that have devalued currency compared to the dollar so it can make a lot of sense to work here and send money back home to your family. Or someone is coming from a country where the career opportunities are much more limited than what you can find in the U.S. These large differences doen't exist between states. With that being said I've met a number of people that have moved from one state to another (one even from LA to NY) for either short term jobs and they plan to return to their families or longer term jobs where the families will eventually follow. So, yes, Americans are willing to relocate.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 07:45 PM   #32
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But then you would have farmers going out of business and even more unemployment.
Believe me no farmers are going out of business right now. I live in ag country and know this for a fact. They are enjoying record prices right now.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 10:52 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
Not one is going out of business selling milk. Without government intervention, they will sell it a price that makes them a profit.

Also, North Dakota is begging people to come there with an unemployment rate of less than 1%.
Not when the dairies control the price.

Can you show me the range of jobs currently available in ND? I'll bet most of them are low paid and in the Bakken area housing costs can easily equal those in Seattle. What's the point in working for Walmart for $10 and no benefits an hour when housing takes up over half of your pay?

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Believe me no farmers are going out of business right now. I live in ag country and know this for a fact. They are enjoying record prices right now.
How many dairy farmers where you live? Here in California where 25% of the nation's milk is produced, farmers are getting squeezed by the dairies many of whom are in thrall to Walmart.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 11:15 PM   #34
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Not when the dairies control the price.

Can you show me the range of jobs currently available in ND? I'll bet most of them are low paid and in the Bakken area housing costs can easily equal those in Seattle. What's the point in working for Walmart for $10 and no benefits an hour when housing takes up over half of your pay?

----------



How many dairy farmers where you live? Here in California where 25% of the nation's milk is produced, farmers are getting squeezed by the dairies many of whom are in thrall to Walmart.
I don't understand liberals. You guys want high paying jobs that regular guys can do but then when there are jobs that pay, you make all sorts of excuses.

North Dakota is booming. Exactly what we want from our private sector.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/28/pf/n...jobs/index.htm

Where I live (Silicon Valley), there are thousands of jobs that go unfilled because we can't find qualified candidates. We have to import talent from other countries because they actually choose the sciences instead of liberal arts.

Americans have become lazy and the government encourages it. We are in a global economy and other countries are hungrier than we are right now.

We used to have that work ethic but now we want a handout from the government.

Last edited by Dmunjal; Dec 23, 2012 at 11:22 PM.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 12:59 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
I don't understand liberals. You guys want high paying jobs that regular guys can do but then when there are jobs that pay, you make all sorts of excuses.

North Dakota is booming. Exactly what we want from our private sector.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/28/pf/n...jobs/index.htm

Where I live (Silicon Valley), there are thousands of jobs that go unfilled because we can't find qualified candidates. We have to import talent from other countries because they actually choose the sciences instead of liberal arts.

Americans have become lazy and the government encourages it. We are in a global economy and other countries are hungrier than we are right now.

We used to have that work ethic but now we want a handout from the government.
ahh, just another armchair pundit.

I was born there and have family there. Yes, the oil companies have lots of jobs and they are relatively easy to get but there's no place to live and the few places that are available have astronomical prices. People who work at walmart and other low paid jobs like fast food, can't afford to live in Williston anymore and have to commute up to two hours. New hotels are going up all over but the rooms are snapped up by big companies desparate to house workers. Western ND is a small place and many towns don't have the water or sewer capacity for new builds. Water and waste has to be trucked in and trucked out.

Many of the new workers are men and they have had to leave behind their families. Crime has shot up and those small towns are ill-equipped to deal with it.

It's a shame that you only skim the headlines and are unwilling to look at the situation for what it is instead of what you want it to be.

Homes without fathers rarely produce happy and healthy kids. Why should American fathers be forced to abandon their families?
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 02:10 AM   #36
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The unemployed don't pay income taxes and they've enjoyed record unemployment benefits for 99 weeks. We are no longer in emergency mode and are recovering so why do we need emergency unemployment insurance benefits continued? Not extending those would help the deficit even more than then the higher tax rates on the rich.
Umm, yes- the unemployed pay taxes on their benefits. Do a little research next time. The ignorance is astounding.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 04:40 AM   #37
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Where I live (Silicon Valley), there are thousands of jobs that go unfilled because we can't find qualified candidates. We have to import talent from other countries
Probably a substantial part of it is that the Indians will accept a lower standard of housing than Americans will accept.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 05:15 AM   #38
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I beg to differ. You'd be surprised how quickly extreme positions can reconcile when they have no choice.
By the time they have no choice, it's already too late.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 08:00 AM   #39
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I'm cool with that. I can pay more taxes.

It's the people who's unemployment will be cut off that I'm the most worried about.

You can always choose to send the government a check with your tax return. Voluntarily paying more than what you owe has always been an option.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 09:50 AM   #40
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You can always choose to send the government a check with your tax return. Voluntarily paying more than what you owe has always been an option.
I'd assume any intelligent person would already appreciate this factor but I'll spell it out as it clearly seems to evade you:

Any individual paying a bit extra in the scheme of things will make sweet bugger all difference unless they happen to be one of a handful of billionaires and even then it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Individuals such as citizenzen being happy to pay more tax is not being hypocritical by both being happy to and not voluntarily paying more, one option will make him poorer and make no real difference in the scheme of things unless everyone else happens to make that decision too, while these tax increases will significantly impact the nations finances.

I know it must seem alien to you, but a lot of people consider the broader implications of their politics, not merely their own self interest.

I know you must think you're ever so clever to make these posts again and again and again, but they merely betray your small minded attitude.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 10:35 AM   #41
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What I want to know is why there hasn't been more talk about the "dairy cliff"? Dairy subsidies are set to expire at the end of the year and if not addressed they will go back to the 1949 method of calculating the subsidies, which in turn will make the price of milk go from around $3.60 a gallon to $7.00 a gallon nearly overnight.
Talking about this?

So many bills have been postponed by those idiots, we basically have a non-functioning government.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 10:50 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
I don't understand liberals. You guys want high paying jobs that regular guys can do but then when there are jobs that pay, you make all sorts of excuses.

North Dakota is booming. Exactly what we want from our private sector.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/28/pf/n...jobs/index.htm

Where I live (Silicon Valley), there are thousands of jobs that go unfilled because we can't find qualified candidates. We have to import talent from other countries because they actually choose the sciences instead of liberal arts.

Americans have become lazy and the government encourages it. We are in a global economy and other countries are hungrier than we are right now.

We used to have that work ethic but now we want a handout from the government.
Did it ever occur to you the inability of fill those high tech jobs is because American educational system is and utter miserable joke of a system?

See here and here:
A 2009 study found that U.S. students ranked 25th among 34 countries in math and 17th in science, behind nations like China, Singapore, South Korea, Hong Kong and Finland.



To claim it is because gov is making us lazy is BS fantasy created by certain people to discredit others.

Everyone is finger pointing instead of finding solutions.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 11:06 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
I don't understand liberals. You guys want high paying jobs that regular guys can do but then when there are jobs that pay, you make all sorts of excuses.
I don't think liberals are advocating for "high paying" jobs for "regular guys".

Liberals do often advocate for living wage jobs ...

Quote:
Living wage is defined by the wage that can meet the basic needs to maintain a safe, decent standard of living within the community and have the ability to save for future needs and goals. The particular amount that must be earned per hour to meet these needs varies depending on location and family circumstances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage
Do you think that a "living wage" = "high paying job"?
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 12:13 PM   #44
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We used to have that work ethic but now we want a handout from the government.
Manipulation of that work ethic is part of the reason we are in this mess. How can you call Americans as a whole lazy when on average Americans work more hours per week, take fewer vacations, and receive fewer benefits than similarly developed countries?
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 01:17 PM   #45
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Umm, yes- the unemployed pay taxes on their benefits. Do a little research next time. The ignorance is astounding.
No ignorance at all. Of course, their benefits are taxable but it's not like the IRS is gaining any revenue for it. Taxes on government benefits are an accounting trick. All that is being done is that the benefits are reduced a bit from what they would have received.

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Originally Posted by Ugg View Post
ahh, just another armchair pundit.

I was born there and have family there. Yes, the oil companies have lots of jobs and they are relatively easy to get but there's no place to live and the few places that are available have astronomical prices. People who work at walmart and other low paid jobs like fast food, can't afford to live in Williston anymore and have to commute up to two hours. New hotels are going up all over but the rooms are snapped up by big companies desparate to house workers. Western ND is a small place and many towns don't have the water or sewer capacity for new builds. Water and waste has to be trucked in and trucked out.

Many of the new workers are men and they have had to leave behind their families. Crime has shot up and those small towns are ill-equipped to deal with it.

It's a shame that you only skim the headlines and are unwilling to look at the situation for what it is instead of what you want it to be.

Homes without fathers rarely produce happy and healthy kids. Why should American fathers be forced to abandon their families?
I'm not saying there isn't hardship but times are hard. Life isn't always a bed or roses.

My dad immigrated to the US and left his family and kids behind. He came here with a few bucks and worked as a waiter, dishwasher, etc. Eventually, we were able to join them and build a life here.

Some people see what's happening in ND as a an opportunity. As a gold rush despite it's flaws. Some people only see the flaws.

This country was built on people chasing a dream and working hard despite the flaws.

As a nation, we need to pull up our bootstraps and get back to work. These government handouts are important but at some point, they go too far.

----------

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Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
Did it ever occur to you the inability of fill those high tech jobs is because American educational system is and utter miserable joke of a system?

See here and here:
A 2009 study found that U.S. students ranked 25th among 34 countries in math and 17th in science, behind nations like China, Singapore, South Korea, Hong Kong and Finland.

Image

To claim it is because gov is making us lazy is BS fantasy created by certain people to discredit others.

Everyone is finger pointing instead of finding solutions.
I'm not talking about K-12. We know that is a joke in this country. I'm talking about degrees coming out of universities. Why do we graduate so many liberal arts majors while China and India are graduating millions of engineers? It seems we are not making the right choices.

----------

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Originally Posted by LethalWolfe View Post
Manipulation of that work ethic is part of the reason we are in this mess. How can you call Americans as a whole lazy when on average Americans work more hours per week, take fewer vacations, and receive fewer benefits than similarly developed countries?
The professional class does very well in this country compared to similarly developed countries. The problem is the lower class has to compete with third-world countries where labor is cheap and easily outsourced.

Globalization has been a blessing and curse to our nation.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 01:45 PM   #46
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Manipulation of that work ethic is part of the reason we are in this mess. How can you call Americans as a whole lazy when on average Americans work more hours per week, take fewer vacations, and receive fewer benefits than similarly developed countries?
Work "ethics" have nothing to with about how long you work, but how good&productive you work (*doh*).


Kinda reminds me of how the greek reacted to be called "lazy" by citing that the would work longer hours than most germans. Might be true, but the average german worker still produces more product of higher quality than the average greek.

Work "ethics" means you care more about your company than the next paycheck.
Work "ethics" means you pull in extra hours when the company is in dire need not just for the extra pay.
Work "ethics" means you have some loyality and won't just quit on a days notice cos someone else offered your 3ct/h.

Etc etc...

Problem is work "ethics" has to work both ways, companies that only see their workers as human-capital to be hired&fired whenever needed just can't expect the level of loyality required to produce above-average products.

/end rant
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 01:51 PM   #47
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Work "ethics" have nothing to with about how long you work, but how good&productive you work (*doh*).
Okay ...

Quote:
U.S. Workers World's Most Productive

American workers stay longer in the office, at the factory or on the farm than their counterparts in Europe and most other rich nations, and they produce more per person over the year.

They also get more done per hour than everyone but the Norwegians, according to a U.N. report released Monday, which said the United States "leads the world in labor productivity."

Each U.S. worker produces $63,885 of wealth per year, more than their counterparts in all other countries, the International Labor Organization said in its report. Ireland comes in second at $55,986, ahead of Luxembourg, $55,641; Belgium, $55,235; and France, $54,609.

The productivity figure is found by dividing the country's gross domestic product by the number of people employed. The U.N. report is based on 2006 figures for many countries, or the most recent available.

Only part of the U.S. productivity growth, which has outpaced that of many other developed economies, can be explained by the longer hours Americans are putting in, the ILO said.

The U.S., according to the report, also beats all 27 nations in the European Union, Japan and Switzerland in the amount of wealth created per hour of work - a second key measure of productivity.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500395_162-3228735.html
That news story is from 2009. It's possible that some changes have occurred since then. More up-to-date information would be welcome.

However, I think this pretty much covers whatever definition of "productive" you'd like to use.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 01:58 PM   #48
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I don't think liberals are advocating for "high paying" jobs for "regular guys".

Liberals do often advocate for living wage jobs ...



Do you think that a "living wage" = "high paying job"?
Here's the thing. US workers are already amongst the highest paid. Even our minimum wage is higher than a lot countries.

But what makes it hard to live in the US is not the income but the expenses. Healthcare, education, housing, food, and energy are way too high based on the average income leaving little left for other things which add to the quality of life.

My belief is that government intervention, with the best of intentions, has driven up the cost of living so much that the poor and middle class have fallen further behind. We can raises their wages to keep pace with these rising costs but with a global workforce that is ready to perform low-skilled work at a third of the cost, it won't come naturally.

Last edited by Dmunjal; Dec 24, 2012 at 02:06 PM.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 02:01 PM   #49
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"gross domestic product"

Problem is that contains a lot of hot air (wether it's more hot air in the US than elsewhere is debatable). Just look at much that has risen over say the last 20 years and ask yourself if you yourself feel that much wealthier.

Another issue is that the US $ is highly overvalued (you know reserve-currency vs. trade-deficit) compared to other major currencies.

Now I don't know how work ethics really stand in what part of the US economy, I was just pointing out the number of hours worked have very little to do with.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 02:09 PM   #50
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No ignorance at all. Of course, their benefits are taxable but it's not like the IRS is gaining any revenue for it. Taxes on government benefits are an accounting trick. All that is being done is that the benefits are reduced a bit from what they would have received.[COLOR="#808080"]
Umm...riiiiight.

BTW- as far as your claim of unemployment benefits being better than having a job, you're full of it. Unemployment benefits are not very good.
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