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Old Dec 24, 2012, 12:30 PM   #26
DakotaGuy
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Not funny.

Highly illogical.

But not funny.
I'm just saying if you started to do research on causes of fires and deaths in those fires you will see there is a serious issue with matches, lighters and candles. Those 3 items have caused a lot of deaths in our country. Yes I understand that lighter companies were forced to add some safety features, but many by-pass these and I have seen lighters on the market without any child safety features. Candles are quite dangerous as well and there is virtually no regulations on them other then some places like schools have a no open flame policy. Sorry I am sort of a freak about fire safety, but we lose a lot of people in our country every year because of it. I know this has nothing to do with what happened to these firefighters, but when people keep acting like guns are the only thing that has ever killed someone they should do more research.

Yes of course I feel terrible for the firefighters. I was a volunteer firefighter at one time as well and when we responded to a fire I never thought about getting shot at as being a danger. Sure this is in po' dunk South Dakota where we do have a lot of firearms, but rarely are they ever used against other people. Stabbings seem to be the big issue for us in Rapid City. I'm not sure why, but knives have been an issue over the years.

So I will admit that I am likely to see things from a very different perspective since guns are not an issue where I live. The last place a criminal would want to break into a house would be in my little town because I can promise the majority have guns in their house. Probably just shot guns for the most part, but you get the idea.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 12:54 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by likemyorbs View Post
My guess is that anyone who would massacre small children did not obtain the guns legally. Oh wait....
He stole them from his mother.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 01:01 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
Your logic eludes me.

Today a person legally buys a gun (passes background check, has it secure in house).
Gun gets stolen.
Stolen gun used in horrible crime.

This is exactly what is happening today.

So what is different?? Please give details.
Since when do all gun owners keep their guns secure and locked up? Pretty much all of the gun owners that I know don't keep any of them locked up, it would be quite easy to steal them.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 01:01 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by IBradMac View Post
He stole them from his mother.
Who encouraged him to use them.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 01:03 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Who encouraged him to use them.
She didn't hold the gun to his head to make him do what he did.

I have yet to witness a gun shoot itself.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 01:06 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by IBradMac View Post
He stole them from his mother.
Yes they were not his and he was using them illegally. As my mother would say you will have bad luck if you say anything bad about a dead person so I am not going to lay the blame on the mother, but I will say if you have a mentally unstable person in your house you probably should not have guns that are accessible in it. If the guns would have been removed to a safe location or properly secured in a vault that he could not access we would not be discussing any of this right now.

I think if you read anything I posted in the other threads you will notice I am not an NRA member and I do think we need to look at true reform that will fix things without using silly bans that have never worked. I understand that many of you want a 100% gun ban no exceptions and if you are caught with one you end up with a very lengthy prison sentence. But you know what? That is not going to happen. So what can we do to help reduce the problem? I don't see any issue with discussing mental health, school security and even violent video games or movies. Of course that can't be the only things. Instead of doing a ridiculous assault weapons ban that bans cosmetic features, let's look at ways to close the gun show loophole, make mandatory waiting periods and possibly use keys or smart guns so only the registered owner can use the weapon.

What would be more effective at stopping the wrong person from using it? A rifle which has so called assault accessories removed or have a key slot for it while still having the accessories in place? I wish the NRA would work harder at floating ideas like this, but they don't seem to be concerned with helping avoid bans.

Anyhow I feel bad for these firefighters and it is sad that some lunatic did this to them. With that said I am done debating this topic right now and am going to enjoy family time for Christmas.

Happy Holidays to everyone on here and enjoy your endless debate.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 01:09 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by IBradMac View Post
She didn't hold the gun to his head
No pun intended, I'm sure.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 01:42 PM   #33
rdowns
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Apparently, we need armed teachers on our firetrucks.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 02:54 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by mrkramer View Post
Since when do all gun owners keep their guns secure and locked up? Pretty much all of the gun owners that I know don't keep any of them locked up, it would be quite easy to steal them.
And this needs to become a priority area.

There is no excuse for failing to secure a firearm. The counter argument you hear is "well it isn't accessible". Bull$%&#.

http://www.amazon.com/Gunvault-MV500...6382429&sr=1-1
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 05:25 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by DakotaGuy View Post
I'm just saying if you started to do research on causes of fires and deaths in those fires you will see there is a serious issue with matches, lighters and candles. Those 3 items have caused a lot of deaths in our country. Yes I understand that lighter companies were forced to add some safety features, but many by-pass these and I have seen lighters on the market without any child safety features. Candles are quite dangerous as well and there is virtually no regulations on them other then some places like schools have a no open flame policy.
Well apart from smoke alarms, sprinkler systems, emergency exits, flame retardants, fire doors etc. etc.

And only 3500 people die in fires each year in the US, so about 1/10th as many as die from firearms.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
How is it secure if it can get stolen?
It is very difficult to steal modern cars, so guns should be reasonably equally securable.
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Last edited by Eraserhead; Dec 24, 2012 at 05:23 PM.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 05:50 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by NickZac View Post
And this needs to become a priority area.

There is no excuse for failing to secure a firearm. The counter argument you hear is "well it isn't accessible". Bull$%&#.

http://www.amazon.com/Gunvault-MV500...6382429&sr=1-1
A gun vault? Really?? Many of us grew up with a shotgun, rifle or both hanging on a wall or in a rack by the door. The problem isn't the firearms, it's the fact that parents are failing to teach their kids how to properly use them.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 06:00 PM   #37
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A gun vault? Really?? Many of us grew up with a shotgun, rifle or both hanging on a wall or in a rack by the door. The problem isn't the firearms, it's the fact that parents are failing to teach their kids how to properly use them.
Back in the old days 10x more people died in fires too.

Times change.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 06:20 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by colourfastt View Post
The problem isn't the firearms, it's the fact that parents are failing to teach their kids how to properly use them.
What is the "proper use" of a semi-automatic weapon? Is it not to kill and disable as many people as possible?
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 06:21 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colourfastt View Post
A gun vault? Really?? Many of us grew up with a shotgun, rifle or both hanging on a wall or in a rack by the door. The problem isn't the firearms, it's the fact that parents are failing to teach their kids how to properly use them.
Looks like you might be right.

Guns are dangerous no matter how they are stored.

Excerpts from the Oxford Journals, American Journal of Epidemiology ...

Quote:
Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study
Received for publication February 9, 2004; accepted for publication June 7, 2004.

Data from a US mortality follow-back survey were analyzed to determine whether having a firearm in the home increases the risk of a violent death in the home and whether risk varies by storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home.

Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 1.9, 95% confidence interval: 1.1, 3.4). They were also at greater risk of dying from a firearm homicide, but risk varied by age and whether the person was living with others at the time of death. The risk of dying from a suicide in the home was greater for males in homes with guns than for males without guns in the home (adjusted odds ratio = 10.4, 95% confidence interval: 5.8, 18.9). Persons with guns in the home were also more likely to have died from suicide committed with a firearm than from one committed by using a different method (adjusted odds ratio = 31.1, 95% confidence interval: 19.5, 49.6).

Results show that regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home.

After they controlled for a number of potentially confounding factors, the presence of a gun in the home was associated with a nearly fivefold risk of suicide (adjusted odds ratio = 4.8) (13) and an almost threefold risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio = 2.7) (14).

Over three quarters (76.3 percent) of the homicide victims knew their assailant. Nearly one third (31.7 percent) of the homicides occurred during a family argument, 15.4 percent during a robbery, 4.1 percent during a drug deal, 0.2 percent during an abduction, and 44.1 percent for other unspecified reasons. In 4.5 percent of the homicides, multiple circumstances were reported.

The results of the analysis that examined whether the type of gun or number of guns in the home or manner of storage increased the risk that a homicide or suicide would be committed with a firearm are presented in tables 5 and 6. Those persons with guns in the home, regardless of the type of gun, number of guns, or storage practice, were at significantly greater risk of dying from a firearm homicide and firearm suicide than those without guns in the home (table 5). There were no significant differences between those with only handguns in the home and those with only long guns or both handguns and long guns, those with two or more guns, and those having one gun in the household; and between those who stored one or more guns unlocked and those who stored all guns locked (table 6).

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 07:48 PM   #40
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Once again MRs points to the easy solution which punishes law abiding gun owners...and one more time I need to point out that MILLIONS of semiautomatic firearms are used everyday in the US in a safe and responsible manner.

At the same time the gun grabbers on this board ignore the obvious. This person had a prior criminal history, spending 17 years in prison for murdering his grandmother, and instead of being released back into society he should have been kept institutionalized.

Treat criminals like criminals instead of granting them early release for violent crimes, increase mental health access, and institutionalize those who clearly are not capable of being responsible members of society and these problems will go away..
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 07:48 PM   #41
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What is the "proper use" of a semi-automatic weapon? Is it not to kill and disable as many people as possible?
Actually I use mine to hunt; I own 2 semi-automatic shotguns.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 07:50 PM   #42
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I saw this earlier today on CNN -- absolutely terrible... I wonder how the NRA will respond to the increased media exposure to daily shootings in America.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 08:16 PM   #43
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I wonder how the NRA will respond to the increased media exposure to daily shootings in America.
Probably by ignoring it.

Anything short of a mass shooting of innocents is seen as just another day in the good, old U.S.A.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 08:19 PM   #44
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I saw this earlier today on CNN -- absolutely terrible... I wonder how the NRA will respond to the increased media exposure to daily shootings in America.
Next Friday in a press conference they will suggest to have on each fire truck and ambulance car beside tools to fight against fire also some semi-automatic guns to fight back when get under fire. We don't need to expect any constructive ideas from them.

Proactively we should already place heavy armed guards into hospitals and every public train and bus. I wouldn't be surprised the NRA propose that as a job creation proposal, too.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 08:22 PM   #45
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What is the "proper use" of a semi-automatic weapon? Is it not to kill and disable as many people as possible?
I own two semi auto shottys. Both excellent hunting weapons. Perfect for deer and bird hunting. Only time I like a pump is for turkey hunting.

I hate manually ejecting the shells.
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 09:05 PM   #46
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Kinda makes sense.
In the UK you get chavs/bad guys who throw stones and bricks at firemen who try to do their job. In the US, I guess because of the prevalence of guns, you have people who shoot at them. If people want to hurt others they'll find a way but I'd rather take a stone to the leg than a bullet!
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Old Dec 24, 2012, 09:39 PM   #47
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Actually I use mine to hunt; I own 2 semi-automatic shotguns.
That's not what the weapon is primarily designed for, hence the "proper use" question from our friend Skunk.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 02:28 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by colourfastt View Post
A gun vault? Really?? Many of us grew up with a shotgun, rifle or both hanging on a wall or in a rack by the door. The problem isn't the firearms, it's the fact that parents are failing to teach their kids how to properly use them.
Really. I'm not saying everyone should be forced to store under lock and key because not everyone needs to, but there are many scenarios where guns should be stored under lock and key or some medium that prevents unauthorized access. If we look at accidental firearm deaths, there clearly is a need for better storage.

And I agree with you 100% that we need to teach children basic firearms safety. The public looks at this as taboo and it makes the situation worse. For those who don't believe this, look at abstinence-only sex-ed in the US...it's done more harm than good. I think everyone should know basic firearm safety...even if they despise guns. To me the reasoning behind that is pretty obvious although I am sure others will disagree. I've taught children as young as 7. But I don't see that overwriting good storage practices. Children are generally not as predictable as adults and just because your kids are well trained doesn't mean others in your house as guests are. Owners need to take all of this into consideration. Chances are you do, but not everyone does and that needs to change.

There is also the need for storage to prevent theft. In some areas this is a bigger issue than others and the value of a collection obviously influences this as well. Chances are you know all of this if you grew up with guns and know 'shooting culture'...but there are owners who buy guns and know very little about them. These 'accidents' (really negligence) not only ruin lives, but put yours and my right to own a firearm in jeopardy. When I sold firearms, I asked everyone about kids, understanding of storage mediums, and discussed when it is right to do what under what circumstances.

My main point was that for those with a legitimate need to store under lock and key, there are means in which accessibility is not compromised. If we are going to preserve our nation's rich shooting history, issues like these must come to the forefront. And the only way that can happen is through education, which both you and I have noted the importance of.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 02:44 AM   #49
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Looks like you might be right.

Guns are dangerous no matter how they are stored.

Excerpts from the Oxford Journals, American Journal of Epidemiology ...
Let me start by saying regardless of whatever the real statistics are, they are not acceptable.

If you want to dig into this further, my questions are
1) how has the data changed since the 20 years ago when the sample was taken? (presumably, the assault weapons ban would have some affect if their argument is correct)
2) how does the data change when controlled for health coverage

There are other countries where gun ownership is not low by any means. These countries have standardized health care. There are many guns in Finland...yet look at their figures. In fact, they usually have the second-most guns per capita in the world...and yet they have among the lowest crime rates.

If we go by US stats, we would expect Finland to have roughly four-plus times higher of a homicide rate with firearms than it actually does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Finland

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/op...-out.html?_r=0

Finland has one of the best or the best healthcare systems in the world and arguably the best mental healthcare system in the world. I've studied it extensively.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 04:17 AM   #50
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This person had a prior criminal history, spending 17 years in prison for murdering his grandmother, and instead of being released back into society he should have been kept institutionalized.
Yes, because locking people up forever works so well in America, and no-one dies inside prisons ever .
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