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Old Dec 25, 2012, 06:40 AM   #51
glocke12
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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
Yes, because locking people up forever works so well in America, and no-one dies inside prisons ever .
ok...so your solution is to release violent offenders back into the general population?

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Old Dec 25, 2012, 08:42 AM   #52
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ok...so your solution is to release violent offenders back into the general population?

Im really trying to figure out how you liberals think..you don't want guns, yet you are ok with murderers being released from prison...
Your first mistake is to try to identify all "liberals" as sharing the same view on everything. Would you not be offended if all "conservatives" were assumed to share the same view likewise?
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 09:09 AM   #53
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Your first mistake is to try to identify all "liberals" as sharing the same view on everything. Would you not be offended if all "conservatives" were assumed to share the same view likewise?
fair enough...i take it back and edited my post...

but seriously, how can people justify letting people out who should have clearly been institutionalized while at the same time advocate for the disarmament of law abiding people?
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 09:16 AM   #54
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Agreed.

More laws will not fix the problem because criminals don't give a a damn about law anyway.

In the end it is law abiding citizens that are punished.
Except in many cases they were law abiding until they picked up a gun and shot someone. We are in a mess. At this point it might actually better to issue everyone a handgun...and let the real fun begin.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 09:19 AM   #55
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I looked just in Wikipedia under Preventive detention. If a judge would agree to it (as for example in Germany) that would be appropriate. But again US has the Sixth Amendment beeing potentially in conflict with that concept.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 10:08 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
ok...so your solution is to release violent offenders back into the general population?
After a decent prison sentence, yes.

The weakness with the current US system is that you have all these people in prison with literally no way of punishing them further - so then they do all sorts of crazy stuff and start killing other prisoners.

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I looked just in Wikipedia under Preventive detention. If a judge would agree to it (as for example in Germany) that would be appropriate. But again US has the Sixth Amendment beeing potentially in conflict with that concept.
This essentially happens in the UK as well, but it only affects a tiny minority of the worst offenders.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 10:18 AM   #57
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After a decent prison sentence, yes.

The weakness with the current US system is that you have all these people in prison with literally no way of punishing them further - so then they do all sorts of crazy stuff and start killing other prisoners.[COLOR="#808080"]
you have got to be kidding me....
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 10:29 AM   #58
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you have got to be kidding me....
Are you not aware of the state of US prisons?

Or do you think you can punish someone with a sentence of life without parole?
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 05:31 PM   #59
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[QUOTE=Eraserhead;16552252]Are you not aware of the state of US prisons?

U.S. prisons are a hell of alot better than prisons in many other countries...


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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
Or do you think you can punish someone with a sentence of life without parole?
This guy murdered his grandmother...as far as I am concerned life sentence without parole is too lenient...

Hell, as far as I am concerned rapists, murderers, child molesters etc...have all pretty much given up their right to be a part of society the moment they committed their crime...
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 06:28 PM   #60
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U.S. prisons are a hell of alot better than prisons in many other countries...
I could be mistaken, but I think he's talking about how full our prisons are, not how well appointed.

The U.S. already incarcerates more inmates than any other nation on Earth. (USA! USA!)

If we put people away for even longer sentences, that would drive the prison population up even further.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 06:53 PM   #61
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Yes, because locking people up forever works so well in America, and no-one dies inside prisons ever .
And this is another reason why gun control will not work in America in the fashion people predict and why a more holistic model is the best way to reduce gun violence. The current penal model of 'warehousing' is not doing a very good job at rehabilitating. Check out how many low-level drug offenders are locked up with rapists. There is not only a better alternative, but a much cheaper one as well that doesn't involve warehousing low-level offenders. (although it sounds like this individual was not a low-level offender at all and I agree he should have been behind bars if it was murder he committed...and if this was done, would this have been prevented?)



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Originally Posted by skunk View Post
Your first mistake is to try to identify all "liberals" as sharing the same view on everything. Would you not be offended if all "conservatives" were assumed to share the same view likewise?
In all respects, that is pretty common on this forum. Not saying you specifically but some others have made a habit of it.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 06:58 PM   #62
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I could be mistaken, but I think he's talking about how full our prisons are, not how well appointed.

The U.S. already incarcerates more inmates than any other nation on Earth. (USA! USA!)

If we put people away for even longer sentences, that would drive the prison population up even further.
ahhhhh, should have realized that...well to that I say, get rid of the people that are in there for minor drug offenses, such as possession, and that should clear up plenty of room for rapists, murderers and child molesters.

----------

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Originally Posted by NickZac View Post
(although it sounds like this individual was not a low-level offender at all and I agree he should have been behind bars if it was murder he committed...and if this was done, would this have been prevented?)
.
had he been in jail, this would not have happened...though I am sure that some on here would tell you that the evil Bushmaster rifle used would have possessed someone else and made that person shoot someone else instead..
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 07:09 PM   #63
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had he been in jail, this would not have happened...though I am sure that some on here would tell you that the evil Bushmaster rifle used would have possessed someone else and made that person shoot someone else instead..
I agree. I see a need for justice reform, but this dude committed murder. Murder isn't smoking a little reefer or pissing on a 7-11. And since this person committed murder once, I doubt an assault weapons ban would deter them from their actions.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 07:24 PM   #64
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But if we ban all guns them criminals won't have th...
Oh wait..
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I agree. I see a need for justice reform, but this dude committed murder. Murder isn't smoking a little reefer or pissing on a 7-11. And since this person committed murder once, I doubt an assault weapons ban would deter them from their actions.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 07:37 PM   #65
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But if we ban all guns them criminals won't have th...
Oh wait..
Yes because we all know criminals follow the law so if we ban them they won't have them!
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 07:39 PM   #66
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Yes because we all know criminals follow the law so if we ban them they won't have them!
We can at least make reforms that make it more burdensome to obtain a weapon, like the pathetic gun show loophole.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 07:40 PM   #67
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We can at least make reforms that make it more burdensome to obtain a weapon, like the pathetic gun show loophole.
I'm fine with that. Just not the 'ban all weapons' philosophy.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 07:41 PM   #68
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We can at least make reforms that make it more burdensome to obtain a weapon, like the pathetic gun show loophole.
I'm willing to bet during the last 10 yr Clinton ban most of the AR's people own today were acquired then.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 07:49 PM   #69
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I'm fine with that. Just not the 'ban all weapons' philosophy.
There is no reason to automatically jump to the deep end, that kind of polarized all or nothing reasoning is exactly why nothing gets done. At the bare minimum we should pass the common sense reforms that all can agree on.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 09:12 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
Are you not aware of the state of US prisons?

Or do you think you can punish someone with a sentence of life without parole?
This guy should have been hung. No need to keep him around after he bludgeoned ha grandmother to death with a hammer.

Prison sentence was way too lenient. Death penalty material in any sane culture.

Those poor firefighters would still be alive today.

Travesty of our legal system.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 09:38 PM   #71
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This guy should have been hung.

Prison sentence was way too lenient. Death penalty material in any sane culture.
What culture sentences manslaughter with the death penalty?

The following is a list of countries that permit and practice capital punishment.

Which of these countries do you consider having a "sane culture" ...?

Quote:
Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Ethiopia
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kuwait
Lebanon
Lesotho
Libya
Malaysia
Mongolia
Nigeria
North Korea
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Qatar
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Syria
Taiwan
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States
Vietnam
Yemen
Zimbabwe

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 09:43 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
After a decent prison sentence, yes.

The weakness with the current US system is that you have all these people in prison with literally no way of punishing them further - so then they do all sorts of crazy stuff and start killing other prisoners.

----------



This essentially happens in the UK as well, but it only affects a tiny minority of the worst offenders.
This guy should have never of been released from prison. We keep people in jail with lesser offenses for longer.
Quote:
“I still have to get ready to see how much of the neighborhood I can burn down and do what I like doing best — killing people,” Mr. Spengler, 62, wrote, in a note the police recovered.
Quote:
It had been 32 years since he beat his grandmother to death with a hammer in the Lake Road house next to his.

As Christmas Eve dawned in this suburb of Rochester, local authorities say, Mr. Spengler set fire to a car, as a trap. When an engine company came roaring down the street, he started shooting at the first responders, most likely from his Bushmaster .223-caliber rifle. It was the same type of semiautomatic weapon used in the school shooting 10 days earlier in Newtown, Conn.

“He was equipped to go to war to kill innocent people,” the Webster police chief, Gerald L. Pickering, said of Mr. Spengler.

The authorities say Mr. Spengler fired shots that killed two volunteer firefighters from long range and seriously wounded two others, and set a “raging inferno.” The police found him dead on a berm about five hours after the siege started, with a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head.

On Tuesday, the authorities added another likely victim: Cheryl Spengler, 67, the gunman’s sister. Chief Pickering said “human remains” were found at the shooter’s house, 191 Lake Road, that they believed were of Ms. Spengler. The Monroe County medical examiner’s office did not return requests for comment on the identification of the remains or the cause of death.

Mr. Spengler’s note, Chief Pickering said, contained no motive, just ramblings, and spoke only to a murderous intent. He said he was not at liberty to disclose it in full because of the investigation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/26/ny...note.html?_r=0

This guy should not have had access to weapons, but furthermore, they knew what a nut case he was and he was still free.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 09:53 PM   #73
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I live 10 minutes away from where this happened, local news has changed the story so many times.

Bottom line guy murdered his 95 year old Grandmother who caught him manufacturing LSD because he felt his sentence would be more lenient for murdering her than making the drugs.

Guy is incarcerated 1981 - 1998. Neighbors have said on the record how he told them he was going to murder his own sister, WHO HE LIVED WITH (IN THE HOUSE THAT WAS TORCHED). Guy does what he says and everyone is surprised.

You make guns illegal then the law abiding sheep are defenseless against the "criminals."

The war on drugs has paid dividends yet again.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 09:59 PM   #74
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I live 10 minutes away from where this happened, local news has changed the story so many times.

Bottom line guy murdered his 95 year old Grandmother who caught him manufacturing LSD because he felt his sentence would be more lenient for murdering her than making the drugs.

Guy is incarcerated 1981 - 1998. Neighbors have said on the record how he told them he was going to murder his own sister, WHO HE LIVED WITH (IN THE HOUSE THAT WAS TORCHED). Guy does what he says and everyone is surprised.

You make guns illegal then the law abiding sheep are defenseless against the "criminals."

The war on drugs has paid dividends yet again.
Who were the judge and lawyers that got him 17 years and manslaughter.
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Mr. Spengler was 30 in the summer of 1980 when he killed his 92-year-old grandmother, Rose. According to newspaper accounts from the time, he lied to his mother, saying he had found her at the bottom of the stairs. He accepted a plea bargain for manslaughter and went to state prison for 17 years.
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Old Dec 25, 2012, 10:03 PM   #75
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What culture sentences manslaughter with the death penalty?

The following is a list of countries that permit and practice capital punishment.

Which of these countries do you consider having a "sane culture" ...?
The criminal justice system failed yet again, in a country with a recidivism rate that is one of the highest in the world at about 70% - right up there with the UK.

It's not working. Prisons don't rehabilitate. When are we going to quit coddling prisoners and learn this lesson.

This guy bludgeoned his grandmother with a hammer and killed her. Manslaughter? Only in some crazed liberal rehab context - not in the mind of any rational thinking individual.

He should have been executed in prison.

Your philosophy killed these firefighters. Mine would have killed the grandmother-killer and the firefighters would still be alive.

I can sleep at night with my beliefs. Can you?
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