Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Dec 26, 2012, 05:15 PM   #51
Eraserhead
macrumors G4
 
Eraserhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
I'm not defending our current healthcare system. Let's say we enact universal health care at 10% of GDP, that's still $1.5T. Where will that come from except with higher taxes?
Sure higher taxes, but you would have more money in your pocket as the taxes would be less than private healthcare currently costs.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
Countries may have lent before but they've stopped now. They've gotten wiser these last few years.
Partly because the interest rate is **** .
__________________
If they have to tell you every day they are fair you can bet they arent, if they tell you they are balanced then you should know they are not - Don't Hurt me
Eraserhead is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 05:25 PM   #52
NickZac
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by flopticalcube View Post
Actually, I think the number of people holding PMs today is much lower than it was during the depression. If they do hold them, its most likely in an ETF like GLD which can easily be seized if, indeed, there is any gold there to seize.
I know a lot of people holding silver, some gold, and some other precious metals. Mind you, they aren't holding for the end of the world...they are holding because the value on gold and silver has shot up like a rocket! And it's dual function as international tender as well as industrial value seems to make it a pretty safe investment. You know if the value of gold were to tank that you are waking up to a world where you wouldn't be caring about currency (think Shawn of the Dead or Zombieland). Personally, I'm more interested in a few other metals that are on the verge of an explosive industrial value and CF nanotubes, but silver/gold really is never a bad idea. A few buddies of mine have made some pretty decent profits.
NickZac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 05:26 PM   #53
leekohler
Banned
 
leekohler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
I'm not defending our current healthcare system. Let's say we enact universal health care at 10% of GDP, that's still $1.5T. Where will that come from except with higher taxes? I'm assuming a balanced budget.
Of course higher taxes. But that will be a lot less out of my pocket than I pay now for insurance, not to mention the burden it would take off businesses that are now expected to shoulder most health insurance. It's a win/win all around.
leekohler is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 05:38 PM   #54
NickZac
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by leekohler View Post
Of course higher taxes. But that will be a lot less out of my pocket than I pay now for insurance, not to mention the burden it would take off businesses that are now expected to shoulder most health insurance. It's a win/win all around.
We should be able to get fantastic national health care with what we pay now and then get some taxes back in a refund check. Have you seen the figures on how much we currently spend?
NickZac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 05:40 PM   #55
zioxide
macrumors 603
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
I'm not defending our current healthcare system. Let's say we enact universal health care at 10% of GDP, that's still $1.5T. Where will that come from except with higher taxes? I'm assuming a balanced budget.
Like a couple posters above me said, you're already paying for your health care.

What's the difference if it's taken out of your paycheck as a tax to the government for UHC (non-profit) or being taken out of your paycheck and going straight to Blue Cross and their executives pockets?

There are tons of countries that have proved that UHC is cheaper and more efficient. The people now with insurance are already paying for the uninsured through ridiculously high premiums. The system is broken.

If people actually looked past the partisan lies and propaganda and looked at the actual facts, they would see that it's pretty damn obvious its a much better solution.

Health care shouldn't be a for-profit industry.
zioxide is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 05:44 PM   #56
Dmunjal
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by leekohler View Post
Of course higher taxes. But that will be a lot less out of my pocket than I pay now for insurance, not to mention the burden it would take off businesses that are now expected to shoulder most health insurance. It's a win/win all around.
I can see why Republicans are against universal health care based on their hate for Obama.

But I don't see Democrats saying let's have universal health care and here's your higher tax either.

What I see is Obamacare being funded by taxes on the rich (3.8% Medicare tax).

Back to the OP, this stalemate will likely result in more printing and a debased dollar. Got gold?
Dmunjal is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 05:53 PM   #57
zioxide
macrumors 603
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
What I see is Obamacare being funded by taxes on the rich (3.8% Medicare tax).
No. The medicare tax is paying for MEDICARE.

"Obamacare" is simply a mandate telling people who aren't eligible for medicare that they have to buy their own private insurance or face a penalty.

The PPACA is set to reduce the deficit by $200 billion from 2011-2021.
zioxide is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 05:55 PM   #58
Eraserhead
macrumors G4
 
Eraserhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
But I don't see Democrats saying let's have universal health care and here's your higher tax either.
The Democrats have become pretty right wing, the US has been a pretty conservative country.
__________________
If they have to tell you every day they are fair you can bet they arent, if they tell you they are balanced then you should know they are not - Don't Hurt me
Eraserhead is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 05:58 PM   #59
NickZac
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
The Democrats have become pretty right wing, the US has been a pretty conservative country.
Well, we did originally break away from your country due to our desire to be overly prude...
NickZac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 06:05 PM   #60
Dmunjal
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
No. The medicare tax is paying for MEDICARE.

"Obamacare" is simply a mandate telling people who aren't eligible for medicare that they have to buy their own private insurance or face a penalty.

The PPACA is set to reduce the deficit by $200 billion from 2011-2021.
Ok. I see that. But $200B isn't even a drop in the bucket to the real problem that is measured in trillions.
Dmunjal is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 06:13 PM   #61
Eraserhead
macrumors G4
 
Eraserhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
Ok. I see that. But $200B isn't even a drop in the bucket to the real problem that is measured in trillions.
Every little helps . $200B isn't that little.
__________________
If they have to tell you every day they are fair you can bet they arent, if they tell you they are balanced then you should know they are not - Don't Hurt me
Eraserhead is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 06:17 PM   #62
Dmunjal
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
Every little helps . $200B isn't that little.
That's over 10 years. $20B is 0.5% of the budget.
Dmunjal is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 06:45 PM   #63
zioxide
macrumors 603
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
Ok. I see that. But $200B isn't even a drop in the bucket to the real problem that is measured in trillions.
Yes, but it's still a reduction. There is so much misinformation and lies spread about Obamacare and one of the most common is that it's going to cost us tons of money when it's actually going to save us money in the long run. A reduction is a reduction no matter if it's $1, $1 billion, or $1 trillion.
zioxide is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 07:20 PM   #64
Ugg
macrumors 68000
 
Ugg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Penryn
Send a message via AIM to Ugg
There re so many paranoid right wingers theses days its not even funny.
__________________
Check out <Peter's family tree!
Ugg is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 09:38 PM   #65
leekohler
Banned
 
leekohler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmunjal View Post
I can see why Republicans are against universal health care based on their hate for Obama.

But I don't see Democrats saying let's have universal health care and here's your higher tax either.
Then you missed Obama's entire first term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Yes, but it's still a reduction. There is so much misinformation and lies spread about Obamacare and one of the most common is that it's going to cost us tons of money when it's actually going to save us money in the long run. A reduction is a reduction no matter if it's $1, $1 billion, or $1 trillion.
Precisely, while not at all ideal, it's a start. And it's a start that we should all be able to agree on for now.

Last edited by leekohler; Dec 26, 2012 at 10:02 PM.
leekohler is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 09:58 PM   #66
flopticalcube
macrumors G4
 
flopticalcube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In the velcro closure of America's Hat
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickZac View Post
I know a lot of people holding silver, some gold, and some other precious metals. Mind you, they aren't holding for the end of the world...they are holding because the value on gold and silver has shot up like a rocket! And it's dual function as international tender as well as industrial value seems to make it a pretty safe investment. You know if the value of gold were to tank that you are waking up to a world where you wouldn't be caring about currency (think Shawn of the Dead or Zombieland). Personally, I'm more interested in a few other metals that are on the verge of an explosive industrial value and CF nanotubes, but silver/gold really is never a bad idea. A few buddies of mine have made some pretty decent profits.
Today, PMs make up about 2% of the wealth held by people. In the West it is probably lower than that. People should probably hold 5-10% of their portfolio in PMs as insurance for when, not if, governments do something stupid. During times of great financial stress like the Depression, PMs can soar to as much as 20-25% of wealth held. That indicates to me that either PMs are greatly undervalued or other kinds of assets are greatly overvalued or perhaps a bit of both. I expect further volatility in the $ price of PMs as well, perhaps extreme volatility.
__________________
Read the Rules / Search the Forums / Use a Descriptive Title
Mac Won't Boot?
flopticalcube is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 10:48 PM   #67
NickZac
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by flopticalcube View Post
Today, PMs make up about 2% of the wealth held by people. In the West it is probably lower than that. People should probably hold 5-10% of their portfolio in PMs as insurance for when, not if, governments do something stupid. During times of great financial stress like the Depression, PMs can soar to as much as 20-25% of wealth held. That indicates to me that either PMs are greatly undervalued or other kinds of assets are greatly overvalued or perhaps a bit of both. I expect further volatility in the $ price of PMs as well, perhaps extreme volatility.
Depending on the global economy, I could see them surging. China has surely influenced this as they've purchased a lot of semi precious and precious metals. The price of copper and brass have gone up stupidly fast. And unless the entire world goes into some sort of apocalypse, someone will always need gold for industrial properties (probably part in due to our reliance on acids). I would say in terms of held, PMs are probably held in larger portions by a smaller group of people. I'd venture that guess mainly because Americans aren't well known for saving money and I know tons of people who look at it as strange/unimportant.
NickZac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 10:53 PM   #68
leekohler
Banned
 
leekohler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickZac View Post
Depending on the global economy, I could see them surging. China has surely influenced this as they've purchased a lot of semi precious and precious metals. The price of copper and brass have gone up stupidly fast. And unless the entire world goes into some sort of apocalypse, someone will always need gold for industrial properties (probably part in due to our reliance on acids). I would say in terms of held, PMs are probably held in larger portions by a smaller group of people. I'd venture that guess mainly because Americans aren't well known for saving money and I know tons of people who look at it as strange/unimportant.
I still say our best bet is to go with UHC and get health care off the backs of our corporations. That is a massive expense for us and costs us US jobs. Once we do that, we'll be able to be a lot more competitive.
leekohler is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 11:05 PM   #69
NickZac
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by leekohler View Post
I still say our best bet is to go with UHC and get health care off the backs of our corporations. That is a massive expense for us and costs us US jobs. Once we do that, we'll be able to be a lot more competitive.
Absolutely. I wouldn't be against it being orchestrated through the private sector with government acting as the central regulatory (and paying) agency given how many healthcare jobs are within the private sector. I'm really open to whatever orchestration methods provided everyone gets a set standard of care.

Not just corporations but productivity in general suffers. Most longitudinal studies have indicated that GDP increases with comprehensive healthcare for all. Mental health of the nation will benefit greatly...I've been there without insurance facing a medical issue and it is a really, really bas place to be! There will be fewer sick days taken, less burden from chronic disease, fewer infant fatalities, and arguably less crime. People won't have to kill themselves to avoid passing ridiculously high bills to their children that not even Bill Gates could afford. And as you noted, small business won't get tanked from not being able to afford care. Even the people who currently have good healthcare will benefit, as virtually every study that has examined the issue has found that when you increase the health of the least healthy people in the nation that everyone's health goes up.

The amount we currently spend on medical care is scary...especially considering how little we get. This indicates we need to reevaluate what we are doing, and a revamp is what we need. And honestly, it shouldn't be a political issue. It should be an issue driven by the empirical evidence that says virtually everyone in the nation benefits.
NickZac is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2012, 11:08 PM   #70
leekohler
Banned
 
leekohler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickZac View Post
Absolutely. I wouldn't be against it being orchestrated through the private sector with government acting as the central regulatory (and paying) agency given how many healthcare jobs are within the private sector. I'm really open to whatever orchestration methods provided everyone gets a set standard of care.

Not just corporations but productivity in general suffers. Most longitudinal studies have indicated that GDP increases with comprehensive healthcare for all. Mental health of the nation will benefit greatly...I've been there without insurance facing a medical issue and it is a really, really bas place to be! There will be fewer sick days taken, less burden from chronic disease, fewer infant fatalities, and arguably less crime. People won't have to kill themselves to avoid passing ridiculously high bills to their children that not even Bill Gates could afford. And as you noted, small business won't get tanked from not being able to afford care. Even the people who currently have good healthcare will benefit, as virtually every study that has examined the issue has found that when you increase the health of the least healthy people in the nation that everyone's health goes up.

The amount we currently spend on medical care is scary...especially considering how little we get. This indicates we need to reevaluate what we are doing, and a revamp is what we need. And honestly, it shouldn't be a political issue. It should be an issue driven by the empirical evidence that says virtually everyone in the nation benefits.
Exactly. I still don't know why this is a problem for many conservatives. We should be able to agree on this. The worldwide free market is killing us because we refuse to take this approach. If US corporations no longer had to pay this expense, we'd keep more jobs here and be a lot more competitive.

I am far from anti-free market. I believe in it. But we have to get ourselves at the same level as everyone else or we'll be the ones to lose.

The one refrain I hear from my business friends over and over is this: "We can't keep jobs here because we have to pay health care benefits."

Well, what the hell are we waiting for? Why are we doing this to our corporations? We have to get this off their backs to be competitive. Everyone else has done it already and it's killing us not to do it.

The way I see it is- the worldwide free market is speaking, will we listen?

Last edited by leekohler; Dec 26, 2012 at 11:17 PM.
leekohler is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 27, 2012, 01:56 AM   #71
k995
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
If they make it illegal for you to own gold - as they did in the 1930s - they have plenty of methods to use to find out if you have ever purchased any significant quantities of gold.

They they they, you do realise you sound paranoid?

Not a chance in hell this is going to happen, mainly because it would matter little if they did.

----------
Quote:
Quote:

It would be extremely simple to adopt the gold standard again, just as Nixon threw it out in the 70s with the literal stroke of a pen.
Tell this to any economist, make his day and give him a laugh.

If you think this you have no clue how a modern day economy works.
k995 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 27, 2012, 07:48 AM   #72
NickZac
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by leekohler View Post
Exactly. I still don't know why this is a problem for many conservatives. We should be able to agree on this. The worldwide free market is killing us because we refuse to take this approach. If US corporations no longer had to pay this expense, we'd keep more jobs here and be a lot more competitive.

I am far from anti-free market. I believe in it. But we have to get ourselves at the same level as everyone else or we'll be the ones to lose.

The one refrain I hear from my business friends over and over is this: "We can't keep jobs here because we have to pay health care benefits."

Well, what the hell are we waiting for? Why are we doing this to our corporations? We have to get this off their backs to be competitive. Everyone else has done it already and it's killing us not to do it.

The way I see it is- the worldwide free market is speaking, will we listen?
I've not understood it myself to be honest. If conservatism favors business, then we need to help business and the issue of affordable healthcare is a major business issue (it's other issues as well, but for the sake of this conversation, you get my point). Our implementation methods may be different from other nations but the outcome doesn't have to vary. Arguably, it would lower the corporate tax rate over a period of years. I know many small (and medium) business owners who have lost a lot of sleep over this issue. Hell, when I worked for a small business, they were paying over $1,000 a month per employee for middle-of-the-road health benefits!!! That makes it hard to be competitive in today's global market with other companies not having to factor in this expense...and the issue is compounded by a tax rate and base not all that different from ours, yet these nations are getting a lot more for the money than we are! And I agree in that we have to pay attention to the global market...well, I guess we don't have to but I feel it would be in our best interests if we want a strong financial future. Imagine all the gained productivity from the fewer sick days alone with wide-scale preventive health initiatives...
NickZac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 27, 2012, 08:06 AM   #73
classicaliberal
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by leekohler View Post
If US corporations no longer had to pay this expense, we'd keep more jobs here and be a lot more competitive.
If you actually believe this... perhaps I could also interest you in a fun little game:

classicaliberal is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 27, 2012, 09:18 AM   #74
NickZac
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by classicaliberal View Post
If you actually believe this... perhaps I could also interest you in a fun little game:
Do you realize how much we have companies paying today?

Papa John's showed how big of an issue purchasing healthcare is for small businesses and business franchises. Where as Papa John's can usually employ younger persons on their parent's health care plan, other small businesses, such as one that makes match grade ammunition, probably don't have this luxury. Is it fair to make companies have to bear this burden? How is this not hurting competitiveness in a global economy?
NickZac is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Dec 27, 2012, 09:20 AM   #75
leekohler
Banned
 
leekohler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:
Originally Posted by classicaliberal View Post
If you actually believe this... perhaps I could also interest you in a fun little game:

Image
Of course. When you know you have no argument, try to insult your opponent's intelligence. Not gonna work, and you know it. You're exactly the kind of person I'm talking about- short-sighted and all about ideology, not pragmatism.

The evidence is right in front of you, but you refuse to acknowledge it because it does not fit your ideals. Sorry, that's not how reality works.

Your belief system is an abject failure when it comes to health care, you know it and you can't stand it.
leekohler is offline   2 Reply With Quote


Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cleave Mighty Gold bumper + GlasT Nano Slim on iPhone 5S Gold! rc0310 iPhone Accessories 8 Nov 10, 2013 11:31 PM
iPad: iPhone 5s in gold is white/gold, how will the iPad 5 look in gold? bobright iPad 1 Oct 18, 2013 11:59 PM
Do you believe in Gold? Gold hits two year low as people move assets into Bitcoin. jnpy!$4g3cwk Politics, Religion, Social Issues 41 Apr 29, 2013 11:18 AM
Geneva Golden Holiday Giveaways - Gold Edition Model S Gold! Opheliax iPhone Accessories 0 Dec 3, 2012 05:44 PM
Gold Rush Mayhem - Gold Combat Free Download GamesTharle iPad Apps 0 Jul 27, 2012 06:52 AM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:59 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC