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Old Dec 27, 2012, 01:16 AM   #51
GizmoDVD
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Originally Posted by MacDav View Post
Hmm.. Counter intuitive. The Mac Pro was the obvious choice. Just goes to show that I should be running Apple instead of Tim.
Mac Pro sells what, 10 units a month? Yeah, you'd be great.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 01:20 AM   #52
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And quality will go way down.
You mean like the outstanding quality that has been coming out of China?
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 01:21 AM   #53
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Apple's mentality is that the Mac Pro is no longer relevant and will be phased out. Just look at what happened to the Mac Server and the 17 inch Mac Pro. With Apple, you get less and less choice for when things really matter.
Yep, mentality of killing the products that don't sell. How dare they! They better start producing a new Newton stat!!

I wish Apple would just kill the Pro to stop the whiners from bringing it up every damn thread. This is about the Mini - not the Pro.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 01:28 AM   #54
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You think a robot can make a Mac Mini by itself? Then you have no idea what goes into the making of a computer or what robots can do and what humans can do.
Of cource not. I should have said "greater proportion of assembly done by robot."

The product to choose to move to the US would be the one with the highest percent of automation. And as I said, it might just be a higher volume product because the higher volume can support the high up front cost of the automation. Products built in very low numbers may not justify setting up highly automated factories.

Or just maybe if you know in advance that your NEW design will be built in the US you can design it such that there are fewer steps requiring a human. If you design a new product around the limitations of current robots then you can lower the labor cost to the point here you no longer need buck an hour labor.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 01:34 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by SomeDudeAsking View Post
I bet if Apple does introduce an updated Mac Pro, it will be glued shut.
lmfao! Best. Comment. Ever.

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Originally Posted by GizmoDVD View Post
Mac Pro sells what, 10 units a month? Yeah, you'd be great.
You're assuming a causality that may not be the only part of the equation. Perhaps Mac Pro sales are slumping BECAUSE Apple has chosen almost three years to update it. I'm certain if Apple placed even 1% of its iOS focus on professional systems, they would sell more. Blindly stating sales are low because of A and not B is rather akin to putting the cart before the horse.

Keep in mind, iOS devices are far cheaper and cross-platform, thus would draw more marketshare and growth. Statistics are necessary in analyzing marketshare and growth and realizing that ones marketshare can still shrink yet be stronger than pervious quarters if overall marketshare grows. As for the Mac Pro, there are many who need a powerful desktop system with a good amount of screen real estate and room for upgradability. That will never change. Perhaps the form will be smaller, but the features necessary for that line will [for the near future] be consistent.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 01:40 AM   #56
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Whaaat, not the Mac Pro??? Wait, I know that some Mac Pros are already made in the USA (like mine was), but what fraction are? Maybe it's already 100% and we don't know. Well at least this means that Mac Pro update won't necessarily be after the factories are set up.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 01:56 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by GizmoDVD View Post
Mac Pro sells what, 10 units a month? Yeah, you'd be great.
Apparently you failed to realize I was joking? Besides, you are quite ignorant about the MacPro. Yes, it is the most expensive box and sells the least. The last "semi-upgrade" in 2011 was selling about 25,000 units per month.
If they do a real upgrade and do it right in 2013 those numbers will at least double. All the pros who use these machines to make a living are waiting with money in hand. You wouldn't know about that would you. I know about it because I'm one of them.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 01:58 AM   #58
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Surprised. I bet Apple sells way more Mac minis than Mac Pros.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 02:01 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by krravi View Post
You think a robot can make a Mac Mini by itself? Then you have no idea what goes into the making of a computer or what robots can do and what humans can do.
A robot can certainly assemble a mini which can be broken down into about a dozen individual parts - look at a car production plant.

Nothing will be "made" in a US factory, all components will be made in the same oversees locations, shipped over and merely put together in the US by robots.

Nothing more than a PR stunt, it's niave to think there'll be thousands of new jobs for Americans or that "your engineers" will have any input to innovation like someone else said.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 02:09 AM   #60
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...but made by Foxconn.
It will be interesting to see how Foxconn handle this. Labor laws in the USA are so far removed from what is considered "The Norm" in China. Workers in the USA are not going to buy into the Foxconn ethos without it's overhaul and modification wholesale. I wonder if this is linked to Apples' so called drive to improve conditions and pay for Foxconn workers in China.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 02:22 AM   #61
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Apple cannot "move" something to the US that has pretty much always been in the US to begin with. Every single Mac Pro I've seen(granted haven't seen any new ones in a few years) has been assembled in the USA. They are simply too bulky and too low-volume to assemble them in China then air mail them over. Mac Minis on the other hand have never been assembled in the US. Being quite light and pretty high-volume(which makes assembling large #s of them then shipping by boat economical) meant that they could be affordably assembled elsewhere.
Air mail...they will be shipped in a container...and the cost is minimal given what you can get in a 40ft

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It will be interesting to see how Foxconn handle this. Labor laws in the USA are so far removed from what is considered "The Norm" in China. Workers in the USA are not going to buy into the Foxconn ethos without it's overhaul and modification wholesale. I wonder if this is linked to Apples' so called drive to improve conditions and pay for Foxconn workers in China.
Im guessing this is just a trial..to see how the US workforce do work,and if its viable for more to be produced in the US, starting small on a low volume product, seems themac mini is here to stay then.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 02:24 AM   #62
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I don't think the Mac Pro fits into Apple's portfolio anymore. A separate heavy bulky computer, made by reusable parts, with an external screen?

No, they prefer a computer to have all things integrated, not just for aesthetics and simplicity, but you also need to buy new very often, and throw the old away --> Apple profit.

I don't think the Mac Pro returns in its current form. And yes, it's rather absurd of them to disregard the professional market so long, and overcharging for horribly outdated hardware.

I am damn tired of hearing of iPhones and iPads. Need to get solid alternatives for serious computing back.
Apple should remember that guys like me develop apps for their little iToys with something that has more computing power than an iMac or MacMini. Let's see one of those try to rip through a complex Maya or Vue frame at iPad retina resolution without me having to go out for lunch followed by a nap while just one frame cooks off. If there was such a thing as a stable Hackintosh, I'd give it due consideration. I know some are happy with a Hackintosh, but I also know some who wrestle with the things every time a minor software update is published.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 02:51 AM   #63
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Apparently you failed to realize I was joking? Besides, you are quite ignorant about the MacPro. Yes, it is the most expensive box and sells the least. The last "semi-upgrade" in 2011 was selling about 25,000 units per month.
If they do a real upgrade and do it right in 2013 those numbers will at least double. All the pros who use these machines to make a living are waiting with money in hand. You wouldn't know about that would you. I know about it because I'm one of them.
Do you have a source for that number please? Apple don't release those numbers so I'm curious where you got it from. 300,000 units in a year would be a stretch given the pricing starts at almost twice the average price per unit for desktop sales - which is reported.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 02:52 AM   #64
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Apple should remember that guys like me develop apps for their little iToys with something that has more computing power than an iMac or MacMini. Let's see one of those try to rip through a complex Maya or Vue frame at iPad retina resolution without me having to go out for lunch followed by a nap while just one frame cooks off. If there was such a thing as a stable Hackintosh, I'd give it due consideration. I know some are happy with a Hackintosh, but I also know some who wrestle with the things every time a minor software update is published.
Well, for $700 you could get a Mac Mini loaded up with 16 GB RAM. Let's say you get 2 for $1,400. That gives you 8 cores of bucket rendering (i5) in addition to those in your main machine (maybe a 4-core iMac), which is not that terrible. I'll grant you it's not the same thing, but 3D network distributed rendering is pretty efficient (or even After Effects if you set it up right). I have an iMac and MacBook Air and use whichever one I'm not on to network render in modo and Cinema4D. If my needs were greater, I would consider adding Mac Minis as render farm nodes.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 02:55 AM   #65
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Agreed on last count.

While power systems may be thinning out, I've noticed a pattern of Apple purposefully neglecting this sect then turning around and exclaiming, "See! The Mac Pro is dead. This is a post-pc era. Go buy more iPad's and iMac's."

Yeah, I'd like to see a loaded iMac core i7 take on even a small bit of HD rendering that my Mac Pro 12-Core handles like a hot knife through butter. Time is money, just because an iMac can handle some professional/creative work doesn't mean it can be productive in a timely manner. I just bought a loaded Mac Mini, and while some tests claim it's fast, doesn't beat out my Pro and I need the speed for work.
So using this scenario, does that mean Apple should make some supercomputer a couple hundred people at NASA use because, well, people use it?

Apple killed the MacBook Pro 17" because it wasn't selling enough and things have been trending smaller. Think desktops to notebooks, MacBook Pro to MacBook Air, any computer to portable devices.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who use Mac Pros, but I don't know if it's enough to justify a product line. If Apple can focus that energy on a TV set that ends up selling like the iPad instead of a computer that fewer and fewer people need -- see my office, which went from old Mac Pros to 27.5" iMacs -- it's going to do so. Apple tries to keep its product lineup limited to things it does well so it doesn't become Sony or Mitsubishi.

What wouldn't surprise me would be seeing the Mac Pro severely downsized. There is a lot of wasted space in that chassis, especially with a company killing optical drives in everything. I think it would make more sense to develop something similar to a Mac Mini that perhaps was more expandable. Make some Apple-branded optical drive bay to stack on top and you've got more of an Apple pro computer.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 03:39 AM   #66
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Just watch the quality nose dive
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 03:57 AM   #67
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Please keep the discussion on-topic.

We have the Politics, Religion, Social Issues forum for political debate.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 04:27 AM   #68
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So will Foxconn just ship it's workers to the US to make these things? If Apple was serious about cleaning up the production line they would make them in house not contract out.
you know it sounds preposterous, but the Port of Oakland did exactly this in 2007, the contractor sending workers over with several large shipping container cranes.
They installed the cranes in the heavily unionized Oakland waterfront amid much protest.
The Chinese workers making only about $12 a day for their work.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 04:32 AM   #69
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This is pretty good stuff because when Apple does something other companies will follow. I do want to point out some companies have been producing over here forever without much recognition.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 04:47 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by MacDav View Post
Hmm.. Counter intuitive. The Mac Pro was the obvious choice. Just goes to show that I should be running Apple instead of Tim.
Yeah, please run Apple to show the world, what Apple is good at:

doing the obvious.


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Originally Posted by jackal123uk View Post
A robot can certainly assemble a mini which can be broken down into about a dozen individual parts - look at a car production plant.

Nothing will be "made" in a US factory, all components will be made in the same oversees locations, shipped over and merely put together in the US by robots.
Nobody said anything different. Of course they only will put the parts together.
As if somebody would like to risk to let US workers create complex electrical circuits...

And btw: maybe YOU should look at a car production plant and then start wondering why there still are so many human workers needed.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 05:05 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by saud0488 View Post
And quality will go way down.
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Originally Posted by 76ShovelHead View Post
You couldn't be more incorrect in your assumption

Perhaps it is that you are just unaware of the conditions in these foreign factories.

Just because something was 'imported' doesn't mean it possesses some innate quality unrivaled by any of its domestic counterparts. This stereotype needs to die, and you should be ashamed of yourself not having any respect for our country.

The original post from saud is where I realize who really hates the USA and has no sense of nationalism.

Why do people think that us Americans are incapable of building quality products?


Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleScruff1 View Post
You mean like the outstanding quality that has been coming out of China?

Exactly.

Last edited by OllyW; Dec 27, 2012 at 05:23 AM. Reason: clean up to quoted post
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 05:22 AM   #72
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Am I the only person who thinks this is pointless as it will be run by foxconn?
Yes, some tax revenue from engineers will go back into the US economy, but will that even offset the tax breaks the govt would have offered to get them to build a factory in their state? The profits of the business will be going first to foxconn (owed by China so paid to China) and then Apple who avoids most tax anyway.
Just seems like a marketing scheme targeted at people who don't understand the basics of economics. 'ohh it says made in the US, let's buy this over that Chinese product over there because we are supporting our jobs'
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 05:29 AM   #73
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Am I the only person who thinks this is pointless as it will be run by foxconn?
Yes, some tax revenue from engineers will go back into the US economy, but will that even offset the tax breaks the govt would have offered to get them to build a factory in their state? The profits of the business will be going first to foxconn (owed by China so paid to China) and then Apple who avoids most tax anyway.
Just seems like a marketing scheme targeted at people who don't understand the basics of economics. 'ohh it says made in the US, let's buy this over that Chinese product over there because we are supporting our jobs'
Yes you are.

Foxconn will pay taxes on money earned in the US just like every other foreign company who operates here. They are not exempt.

Apple does not avoid paying their income tax. That's just baloney. The only thing Apple has done that's unique to any US company is they have held their foreign profits offshore so they don't have to pay 50% to the government to invest them back in the US.

Anyone who wants to bid on contract manufacturing for Apple is welcome to do so. The fact that Foxconn was the only one willing to risk the investment to build Apple products in the US is quite telling of the ability of any US company to do this.

The employees will be residents - likely immigrants and I suspect there will be a significant number of women as it typical in manufacturing labor jobs worldwide.

I would not have bothered to try to manufacture in the US if I were running Apple, but they are giving it a try and time will tell if it was a good choice or not.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 05:44 AM   #74
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[QUOTE=wizzerandchips;16559243]Air mail...they will be shipped in a container...and the cost is minimal given what you can get in a 40ft[COLOR="#808080"]

The air mail was in reference to BTOs, they almost always ship those air mail as doing so is cheaper than having to create large #s of each config and risk them not selling. The stock configs are almost all shipped by container(*within a month or 2 of a new model being released, stock configs of newer models are often shipped by airmail because constrained supplies preclude them from going container)
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 05:45 AM   #75
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Agreed on last count.

While power systems may be thinning out, I've noticed a pattern of Apple purposefully neglecting this sect then turning around and exclaiming, "See! The Mac Pro is dead. This is a post-pc era. Go buy more iPad's and iMac's."

Yeah, I'd like to see a loaded iMac core i7 take on even a small bit of HD rendering that my Mac Pro 12-Core handles like a hot knife through butter. Time is money, just because an iMac can handle some professional/creative work doesn't mean it can be productive in a timely manner. I just bought a loaded Mac Mini, and while some tests claim it's fast, doesn't beat out my Pro and I need the speed for work.
I thought about augmenting the rendering power of my 2010 Mac Pro by adding a fully loaded Mac Mini, as you appear to have done. What's kept me from doing so is the potential noise impact. Can you talk a bit about the noise levels a Mac Mini produces under full load compared to a Mac Pro?
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